Skip to comments.Vanity - .308 rifle query
Posted on 07/25/2011 11:48:10 PM PDT by West Texas Chuck
If I ever get gainful employment again, I plan to buy a rifle. I don't consider a 5.56mm to be a proper battle rifle, call me a doofus but I want a .30 caliber firearm with a shortish barrel. No AKs, that might come later.
I have all the handguns I need, as far as She Who Must Be Obeyed knows anyway. Might pick up another or two along the way, but I want a long gun. Don't know squat about semi-auto rifles, but I am a good learner.
What say you FReepers.
At the moment, this is my Kim Kardashian:
I am open to criticisms, advice, insults, or guidance.
Magazine fed 308, spent brass comes out the front so you can fire from either right or left shoulder, has an 18.1" long barrel and 26.1" overall length (both just barely legal), and is one sweet firing rifle. I've got to shoot one, twice, for several magazines. VERY well balanced with the bulk of the weight centered between your fore hand and the shoulder, and it literally centers on the pistol grip - perfectly centered mass there.
I'm saving up for one - I think it's about the best option for a 308 out there, save something needed for serious target shooting. I was putting together 2-3 MOA groups in my first magazine, and tightened up to 1.5 to 2 MOA on my second (4X scope was mounted). Plenty accurate for anything I'd ever need it for.
Besides, having such a compact rifle would be great when out hunting in thick underbrush - no more trying to handle a 42" long rifle!
There’s nothing like reaching out and touching something at 600+ yards. When you have to get in your car to drive to your target, you know it’s long range.
I have a Remington 700 PSS chambered in .308 with a Leupold LR-M3 3.5-10x40mm scope with mil-dots and side-focus. It’s my 300+ yard gun. Anything inside 300 yards is reserved for my AR-15.
If I didn’t already have the AR-15, I’d get a SOCOM for that job.
Maybe 16 inches is too short for that round with the twist of the barrel? All I know is that I could have spent a third less money and bought an AR or maybe even one of the .308 AR variants and gotten a better shooting gun.
I carry an M-4 for work and even my of the rack M-4 with a 16 inch barrel and an EOTech (a damn CQB sight) shoots better unsupported than that SOCOM off a bench.
My recommendation would be to maybe look for a guy that is down on his luck and wants to unload a lightly used rifle that you can try out. Go at least 18 inches on the M1A. The Navy got away with cutting down their barrels when they put them in the Sage stocks, but I think they went to 20". Not sure on that.
I also just got to shoot a 16 inch SCAR in .308 and mama mia was that nice. The one I shot had a fairly high end ELCAN sight on it which was pretty sweet. Things I like about it is that the controls are ambidextrous, and very M-4/AR familiar, good rails, conventional gas system, folding stock is nice for getting out of a vehicle/aircraft, an the thing was a tack driver. Not so good, after using an M-4 for so many years having a moving operating handle is a bit annoying, especially when it is flying around on the left side of the gun. If I got one I would switch it to the other side. That is a standard feature and can be done in a minute with the same part. Another challenge which you have to expect with all .308s is that full auto is like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. Not big on full auto myself, but short bursts are a must. Not sure if it would be much easier with a forward grip installed or not. That takes most of the skill requirement out with an M-4. You definitely can't square up on the target and let lose with a burst.
I say, go big or go home.
I have a buddy who is an AR fag, he keeps trying to steer me into an AR-15 type weapon, Larue or Rock River. I’ll reconsider my choices, nothing is in stone yet. I just wonder about the 5.56mm chambering, it makes me think of a .22LR, but I am ignorant on battle rifles. Yeah, for what the SOCOM costs, I could buy two ARs. Much to learn.
Thanx for that input. Good info.
I have actually fired the HK91. It was years ago, but it seemed easy to handle. I don’t remember it hurting, and I am not currently reloading so that is not an issue. Long sumbitch, though. I have been thinking about something more easily handled indoors in a pinch.
The AR-10 keeps coming up. I’ll have to do some more research before plunking down the bux.
$1500 is actually about right. Like I inferred, I am sucking that state of Texas hind tit at the moment, but that will hopefully change soon.
Not buying any new weapons until it does ;)
Get the AK first, then the Socom. AK’s = incredibly reliable, great short-mid range, enough power to knock em down good.
Socom = more distance, more power, more accuracy.
Odds are your needs are going to be closer up rather than farther away......
Of course, this is just my opinion....... :-)
If you want 308 because you don't think 5.56 is deadly enough, you might want to reconsider. If you want 308 because you want the ability to reliably reach out and shoot 500+ yards, then you're going right. But for "close in" work against things that walk on 2 legs, the little 5.56mm is a very good option.
Yeah, when I get to the point of needing a scope I figure to mount it on a Crusader Broadsword.
I know, in my dreams.
Fired a .306 Savage bolt action when I was 8 years old..Oh man..
Fired a .308 Savage bolt action when I was 8 years old..Oh man..
I watched my old man call out a blade of grass at 80 yards and then cut in half with his Bushmaster AR15 (xm15e2s actually). a blade of grass at 80 yards. think about that for a second. I then proceeded to shoot a full mag, basically hole for hole at 100 yards with the same rifle. with each round right in the bulls eye no less. That means that this weapon is, technically, capable of shooting better than a 1” group at 400 yards (so long as there are no exterior ballistics to contend with). a quality 5.56 mm AR15 assault rifle with a decent scope, a timney adjustable trigger and some good match grade ammo is extremely potent. If I had to go to war, I’d want that rifle and that ammo. period. I’d leave my AR10 behind if I had to choose between the two.
People keep telling me this, maybe I should drop my notions about that round.
I guess I am being prejudiced. Like I said, I know little of this arena of the firearms world.
Bump for gun porn.
Wow, I guess that is word!
I’m not going to close my eyes on this, but I think I may have been mistaken so far. I have much to learn.
Thanx, ‘preciate it.
I have never shot one.
When I was about that age I begged my dad to let me shoot his double-barrel 12 ga.
He let me, not as a punishment, I asked for it. Damn near knocked me down. That is prolly where I learned to respect the Gods of Recoil ;)
I’m not sure what that is. Looks long and heavy, but I like the flash supressor.
OK, that prolly made me look like a fool. Which I likely am, ask my woman.
My old man told the story of how he took his dad’s old double barrel 10 gauge down to the river to hunt. I’m thinking he might have snuck off with it as he was probably too young to be down there by himself with a gun.
It was (is I guess, my brother has it) an old Damascus spun barrel with exterior hammers. Anyway, my dad told me he thought he would be smart to get a quick second shot off, so had both hammers pulled back.
Except when he pulled the trigger and the one went “boom” - the other hammer fell and went “boom” about the same time. Knocked him on his butt. I’m not sure, but I have the feeling he was about 10 or 12 at the time (about 1930?).
FN-FAL, not very short, but very reliable and accurate.
For a second semi-auto, I'd love to have a Kal Tec RFB bullpup but the only person I know who has tried one is a gunsmith and said it had a very uneven trigger that broke a bit different round to round. He didn't know whether that could be straightened out with an adjustment or if it was intrinsic to the rifle. It may be intrinsic to the bullpup design since I heard the same thing from a couple of Brits about their bullpup years ago. I wish I could afford something along those lines, though, it would be a lot easier to handle and it does have a magazine rather than a clip.
a 5.56 mm round hitting you center mass will kill you just as dead as a 7.62 mm round. shot placement is what kills and a 5.56 mm AR15 is capable of surgical like shot placement. The 7.62 is better for shooting through heavy cover though, I will readily admit that.
The 7mm Mauser kicked my butt..cannot remember the rifles too much..but those shotguns..single 12 gauge..16 Remington pump, 12 Browning semi automatic,.. oh forgot the 30-30..and the 30 odd 6. Made a mahogany gun rack 8th grade wood shop.
Look hard at the Kel-Tec RFB bullpup. Can have a long barrel but in a short package sized like a conventional carbine. Takes metric FAL mags. This one has an 18” barrel.
GMTA, I just posted that up a second ago (after you did). It’s an excellent weapon and I’m thinking of getting one to supplement my DMR-ized FAL.
Sadly, 5.56 is marginal for Texas feral pig.
And I’m talking about the kind that go ‘oink’ and walk about on all fours while sporting tusks, that kind of pig.
Carbine length FALs are available, but they’re still stupid long even if you have the Para model with the folding stock (this is actually more complex than it seems.) FALs are actually not all that accurate out of the box, either, though they can be made so.
The "hackles" of Freepers are rising and the flames are coming, but like I said, it a personal thing with the buyer of said guns. I don't mean to insult a gun, but it's just the reality you find when you want to bring down a game animal or blast a tree, or shoot through an engine block. A .223 does fine for a human or a paper target, but if I want to kill something larger than a dog, I grab the .308. I hand load everything from 110 grn to 220 grn in 30 cal, but only have 3, maybe 4 choices in .223 ranging from prairie dogs to white tail. If you have the choice of hunting white tail, would you really choose the .223 over almost any .30 cal? I have a 30-30 and 2 AK 47's I would pick up before the .223. It's just me, I guess. As I think about it more, I would pick my TC 30-30, .357 Maximum, .44 mag, and TC .35 Remington, before I picked the Ranch Rifle. All my Thompson Center pistols are 14 inch and scoped except the .357 Maximum. I have a .223 TC in 14 inch, but in my mind its still a pop gun used for plinking. It's fun and I like to shoot it, but I just don't think of it as a serious hunting pistol.
As far as your shoulder goes, I can't imagine an M1A hurting unless you have arthritis or something. One concern I would have is the short barrel. Maybe it's penis envy, but I like longer barrels. Longer barrels burn more powder unless you load your own. If you use faster powder, you could compensate for the shorter barrel, but why bother for a few ounces of weight. If you want to hide it under your coat, well that again is a personal thing. A 16 inch barrel, vs a 24 inch barrel is a big speed difference and accuracy difference depending on how much powder burns in front of the barrel. Some sort of Bull Pup configuration may make the difference there.
IMO, if you are drawn to the M1A style weapon, you will always want one and nothing else will satisfy you till you get it. If you get it and want to buy another weapon, then get a .223. You can then decide, and if needed, pick one to sell. I bet the .223 goes down the road. If you love guns, the larger calibers are what you want. Look in the mirror and say out loud, " I don't want a .50 cal BMG". I bet you choke and your voice breaks. If not,........get the .223 cause you really don't like guns.
Yeah, I prefer a 357 lever for hogs - some 158 grain JHPs at 1700 FPS from the Rossi carbine work REALLY well for that purpose...
If WT Chuck is looking for something general purpose (hunting, long distance shooting, protection), a 308 is a decent caliber. If it’s mainly plinking and occasional hogs, then a 357 is good. If it’s mainly 2 legged varmit repellant, the 5.56 is a great candidate!
Nice H.K. knockoff .308
fairly inexpensive, accurate and what a whollop.
I’d point out that someone has finally started making faceplates for riot headgear that is 5.56 proof, but it looks like it will be a long time before something practical that’s also 7.62 NATO proof and can absorb enough of the shock that the user’s neck doesn’t get snapped.
Before someone trots out the paranoia flag, there have already been shipments of LEO-intended armor lost to theft and hijacking, plus the cartels in Mexico have been rumored to be using such armor - and we know that crap is spilling back across into the US. Some people have already experienced armored non-LEO invasions of their homes here in the US.
Might just be that individual weapon. The RFB uses a different trigger system from any other bullpup and it’s supposed to eliminate that problem.
Of course, it didn’t help that the SA80/L85 the Brits used is an unreliable pile of crap that even H&K tried to fix and failed to totally succeed at.
The CETME is the predecessor to the G3. It was designed first, by the same team.
Problem is, it tends to jam in sandy conditions in the field. Both the CETME and the G3 destroy the brass they are fed (forget about reloads, the fluted chamber ends any thought of that) and they tend to be very nose heavy. Also, most US CETMEs were Frankenrifles put together by Century Arms, and we all know they weren’t the best to do such a job... Headspace problems are common, sadly.
“To avoid sloppy trigger pull typical of firearms modified into bullpups, the RFB utilizes a floating linkage bar between the sear and the hammer, allowing the sear to remain above the trigger.”
Also, this is what Keltec said when someone enquired as to the trigger system:
‘The RFBs Trigger group has also been designed from the get go to be a match trigger. It includes components for adjusting take-up, over-travel, and Trigger spring tension.
The Standard model which is being produced has non-adjustable components which replace the adjustable ones in their optimized positions. These will be able to be changed out for adjustable ones at a later date if the customer desires, but the Standard RFB is guaranteed to have a trigger pull between 4.5-7.5 Lbs, with minimal take up and over travel. We have yet to encounter another bullpup with a trigger that is even in the same league. The RFBs trigger is better than most conventional semi-auto rifles, as anyone whos handled one will affirm.”
So either it was fitted with badly adjusted parts, or it was just a bad one. The ones I’ve shot exhibited no such problem.
Like the M1A for several reasons, main reason it will shoot anything you load into the mag. Had way too many problems with other people’s AR10 platforms on being picky on what it would shoot.
The SOCCOM 16, for me, was a disappointment and a bigger disappointment for my brother who I talked into buying. What a mistake. Front heavy and feels off balance in CQB drills and forget about anything over 300 yards. Great at raising the dust in front of the target.
My M1A NM can ring 500 yard 12” plates all day long with the peep and a rest. I have had both shoulders worked on and never had a problem with too much kick from the .308
But like stated earlier in other posts, you have a personal choice to make. Good luck
Thanks for the info!! My guess is badly adjusted since even the guy I was talking to said it might be able to be adjusted out. I wish I had the money to buy one because it looks like a really handy weapon. I'll go read some reviews and such. When I was interested in it before it was still really new. Now it's been around a while and the news both good and bad should have come out. Thanks again.
The fluted chamber does not damage the brass in any way.
Headspace is not an issue.
Bolt gap is, and it is easy to check.
Its also easy to rectify.
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