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Deadly honor? Macho guys more likely to get killed
MSNBC ^ | August 15, 2011 | Brian Alexander

Posted on 08/15/2011 12:00:45 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

People do stupid things all the time and they do them in all geographic regions, but as any regular viewer of Comedy Central’s "Tosh 2.0" can tell you, there does seem to be an uncanny correlation between certain regions of the country and the kind of risk-taking behavior that could get you seriously hurt or even killed.

That’s the premise of a new study out today in the journal Social Psychological and Personality Science. The three authors, all from the University of Oklahoma, found that states with a “culture of honor” –- in the South, and the West, mainly -- also have higher rates of accidental death for white males: 42 per 100,000 compared to 36.8 per 100,000 in non “honor” states.

So what’s a “culture of honor”? “The relentless, and sometimes violent, defense of masculine reputation,” according to the study.

“This is an adaptation to what the Ulster Scots [also called the Scots-Irish] experienced over 800 or 900 years in southern Scotland,” one of the study’s authors, Ryan P. Brown, explained. “That’s a breeding ground for the types of dynamics we are looking at.”

Interclan raiding and warfare led to allegiance to family and a high value being placed on one’s personal bravery; think Mel Gibson and his blue William Wallace face. Then, when those people came to the United States, they tended to move to some pretty wild areas.

“During the 1700s they came to Appalachia and they were dirt poor,” Brown said. “So they didn’t get the nice land, they got pushed into the back country” where there wasn’t exactly a cop on the beat.

They defended themselves against threats real or imagined, including threats to their reputations as manly men. Hence the fabled Hatfield-McCoy feud.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Health/Medicine; Miscellaneous; Society
KEYWORDS: clans; cultureofhonor; defendinghonor; duh; feuds; godsgravesglyphs; holdmubeer; holdmuhbeer; honor; macho; manliness; men; raids; risktaking; scotsirish; stupidity; yagonnatakethat
Hold muh beer...
1 posted on 08/15/2011 12:00:47 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Better to die on one's feet than live on one's knees.

Figuratively and literally.
2 posted on 08/15/2011 12:01:59 PM PDT by OCCASparky (Steely-eyed killer of the deep.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

This is news? I’ve been reading about this phenomenon for something like 30 years, and it was covered pretty well in “Outliers”.


3 posted on 08/15/2011 12:02:45 PM PDT by Doctor 2Brains (If the government were Paris Hilton, it could not score a free drink in a bar full of lonely sailors)
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46 Days And FR Is Still Short Of Its Goal

We Are In A Fight For Our Republic

Are You In Or Are You Out?

Support Free Republic

4 posted on 08/15/2011 12:03:25 PM PDT by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

They also build nations, win wars and create a culture that makes things, instead of one that lays back and takes them.


5 posted on 08/15/2011 12:04:49 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Doctor 2Brains

Yeah, but this time it was probably paid for by shovel ready money.

Cowards die a thousand times.


6 posted on 08/15/2011 12:05:17 PM PDT by Sequoyah101 (Half the people are below average.)
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To: SJSAMPLE

Good point. I was thinking more along the lines of that clown who somehow crashed his 4x4 onto the roof of his house.


7 posted on 08/15/2011 12:06:32 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (It's the Tea Party's fault!)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Remembering the old Richard Pryor routine:

“I’m MACHO MAN....I’ll take that knife and shove it up your a$$.”

You’ll go very quickly from “Macho Man” to “Dead Person.”


8 posted on 08/15/2011 12:07:23 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

So Alexander and MSNBC want everyone to be a Mr Sissypants like their boys Hussein 0bama and Chrissy Matthews? Hell no! I rather be a REAL man and die young, than to be a coward and live forever!


9 posted on 08/15/2011 12:08:52 PM PDT by The Sons of Liberty (Psalm 109:8 Let his days be few and let another take his office. - Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

The three authors, all from the University of Oklahoma, found that states with a “culture of honor” –- in the South, and the West, mainly — also have higher rates of accidental death for white males
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why is this honor culture limited to white males?


10 posted on 08/15/2011 12:09:33 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Well nobody at MSNBC has ever been accoused of defense of masculine reputation.
11 posted on 08/15/2011 12:11:41 PM PDT by usurper (Liberals GET OFF MY LAWN)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Tolerance Sucks Rocks.

This can be found way back in human history. It can also be found among the Muzzies, and during WWII it was a huge impediment to the Japanese armed forces.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


12 posted on 08/15/2011 12:13:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Yes, as a matter of fact, it is that time again -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: mamelukesabre

True. I’m pretty sure that Black and Hispanic cultures also have the honor thing going for them.


13 posted on 08/15/2011 12:15:26 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (It's the Tea Party's fault!)
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To: mamelukesabre
Why is this honor culture limited to white males?

Some Asian cultures too.

14 posted on 08/15/2011 12:15:26 PM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: OCCASparky

At least “macho guys” have something worth living, fighting, and, if necessary, dying for.


15 posted on 08/15/2011 12:19:38 PM PDT by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
True. I’m pretty sure that Black and Hispanic cultures also have the honor thing going for them.

In Hispanic cultures it's called machismo.

16 posted on 08/15/2011 12:21:32 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (Obama is the least qualified guy in whatever room he walks into.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

...as any regular viewer of Comedy Central’s “Tosh 2.0” can tell you....

***
Boy, that is some impressive reference source, huh?


17 posted on 08/15/2011 12:48:23 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: SJSAMPLE

They also build nations, win wars and create a culture that makes things, instead of one that lays back and takes them.

(((
Amen!


18 posted on 08/15/2011 12:49:20 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Palin in 2012)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

I suspect there’s a liberal feminyst movement to equate “macho” with “stupid”.


19 posted on 08/15/2011 12:49:45 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Macho guys more likely to get killed

Without jumping into a discussion of "alpha" vs "beta" males, I'd like to point out that those so-called "macho" males also are probably far more likely to pass along their genetic material.

Even if some beta chump gets to raise the offspring.

20 posted on 08/15/2011 12:57:21 PM PDT by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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To: All

bump


21 posted on 08/15/2011 1:07:46 PM PDT by Maverick68
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

We will have a return to courtesy when we return to the code duello.


22 posted on 08/15/2011 1:25:11 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (Voodoo Republicans: Don't read their lips - watch their hands.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Brian Alexander
'Deadly honor? Macho guys more likely to get killed'
Brian, that's something you will never happen to worry about.

By the way, nice hair Brian.
Sissy.

23 posted on 08/15/2011 1:25:17 PM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits [A.Einstein])
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To: Condor51
Arrrrgh. That mutt got me so ticked I messed up the editing.

Post Should Read: ..... you will never HAVE to worry about.

And you still have nice hair. Get a lot of hot dates?
With women, that is.

24 posted on 08/15/2011 1:30:25 PM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits [A.Einstein])
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To: Condor51

Those In-the-Heartland Americans AGAIN!!!

Clinging to their Bibles and Guns!!!!

More propaganda from the left.


25 posted on 08/15/2011 1:41:21 PM PDT by ZULU (McConnell and Boehner are the Judas and Ephialtes of the 21st Century)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Nothing new here. Celts are a little more rough around the edges. Us Micks have been fighting Ulster Scots for 1000 years....and have a beer with them and tell stories afterward.
26 posted on 08/15/2011 1:44:04 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (I am not lead by any politician. I am my own leader.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks
Nothing new here. Celts are a little more rough around the edges. Us Micks have been fighting Ulster Scots for 1000 years....and have a beer with them and tell stories afterward. It toughens us all up.
27 posted on 08/15/2011 1:44:49 PM PDT by Darren McCarty (I am not lead by any politician. I am my own leader.)
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To: ZULU
*** Those In-the-Heartland Americans AGAIN!!! Clinging to their Bibles and Guns!!!! ***

What gets to me with 'guys' like this Brain is that I didn't grow up in the Wild West, or even close to where or what he's referring to. I grew up in Chicago.

And in my old neighborhood, which was middle class, nobody ever backed down from a one on one fight. If you thought you were right, you were willing to do something about it. Granted sometimes you lose, sometimes you win. But we'd never back down.

Now if that's 'Deadly Honor' or 'Macho', well, so be it.

I'm 62+ and still here. So 'Deadly Honor' hasn't killed me yet.

28 posted on 08/15/2011 2:00:40 PM PDT by Condor51 (The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits [A.Einstein])
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To: Darren McCarty
Here's a little something about honor: Scent of a Woman
29 posted on 08/15/2011 2:01:20 PM PDT by willyd (your credibility deficit is screwing up my bs meter...)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Mining. Forestry. Agriculture. Commercial Fishing. These are the jobs that have high rates of accidental death. In what states are these jobs located, for the most part?


30 posted on 08/15/2011 2:25:40 PM PDT by I Shall Endure
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To: Constitution Day
So what’s a “culture of honor”? “The relentless, and sometimes violent, defense of masculine reputation,” according to the study.
“This is an adaptation to what the Ulster Scots [also called the Scots-Irish] experienced over 800 or 900 years in southern Scotland,” one of the study’s authors, Ryan P. Brown, explained. “That’s a breeding ground for the types of dynamics we are looking at.”


31 posted on 08/15/2011 2:27:19 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: OCCASparky

So being macho is the same thing as not “living on one’s knees”? Strange definition of honor. “Being macho” often means taking stupid risks to impress one’s friends. What are some of the most common last words? “Hey, watch this!”


32 posted on 08/15/2011 4:11:33 PM PDT by worst-case scenario (Striving to reach the light)
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To: SJSAMPLE

“I suspect there’s a liberal feminyst movement to equate “macho” with “stupid”.”

Since 1970.


33 posted on 08/15/2011 4:46:26 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

I do alot of genealogy, and found that I am about an 1/8 to 1/4 Scotch Irish (Ulster Scot). I will tell you that a much higher percentage of this group fought in CW, War of 1812, and RW than other parts of my family.


34 posted on 08/15/2011 4:52:55 PM PDT by catfish1957 (Hey algore...You'll have to pry the steering wheel of my 317 HP V8 truck from my cold dead hands)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs,even though checkered with failure, than to take the rank with those poor spirits, who neither enjoyed much, nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat......... Theodore Roosevelt


35 posted on 08/15/2011 5:05:34 PM PDT by Walkingfeather
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

As a descendant of Scots-Irish immigrants, I understand why the author might conclude as he does if he looks at no other ethnic groups...But certainly there is plenty of machismo to go around?

Can’t say I agree with his conclusions; there are many other factors involved...Demonstrating a relationship is not the same thing as establishing cause...

A very good book on the subject of the Scots-Irish is “Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America” by james Webb...Interesting reading...


36 posted on 08/15/2011 6:02:41 PM PDT by elteemike (Cogito! Ergo armatum sum!)
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To: elteemike

Webb is descended from Scots himself, fought in Viet Nam and is now Senator from Virginia.

His book makes the case for the taming of the West by the fighting Scots.

It is a fact that the good burghers of well-settled Pennsylvania encouraged immigration of impoverished Scots to pit them against the Indians on the western frontier.

While many went due west into the Ohio country, many drifted south along the Applalachians and then West.

We are the red-necks and damn proud of it.

Another good book, much more academically oriented, is Albion’s Seed which details the three great migration trails to the West that the Scots pioneered.


37 posted on 08/15/2011 7:11:47 PM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
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To: worst-case scenario

That was the impression I got from this article. Not noble and honorable folk fighting for what they believe in, but potential Darwin Award winners.

Hold muh beer and watch this!


38 posted on 08/15/2011 7:46:34 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (It's the Tea Party's fault!)
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To: SJSAMPLE

Bravo!


39 posted on 08/15/2011 11:00:27 PM PDT by Salamander (Can't sleep...clowns will eat me.)
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To: catfish1957

You should check out the book and film documentary “Born Fighting”.

http://www.amazon.com/Born-Fighting-Scots-Irish-Shaped-America/dp/0767916883

I’m Ulster Irish/Scots/Danish and Welsh.

It’s dangerous just to be in a room with me.

LOL


40 posted on 08/15/2011 11:06:15 PM PDT by Salamander (Can't sleep...clowns will eat me.)
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To: elteemike

Plbbbbbbbbbfffffft!

I posted the *link*.

[wanna fight about it?]

;D


41 posted on 08/15/2011 11:08:21 PM PDT by Salamander (Can't sleep...clowns will eat me.)
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To: wildbill

Some stayed in the Appalatchies.

We are the Hillbillies.

And we’re %!$#$^&%!!! proud of it!

;D


42 posted on 08/15/2011 11:10:08 PM PDT by Salamander (Can't sleep...clowns will eat me.)
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To: worst-case scenario

The way I read the article, being “modern” means not being macho; i.e., metrosexualized. YMMV.


43 posted on 08/16/2011 5:17:14 AM PDT by OCCASparky (Steely-eyed killer of the deep.)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

When the going gets tough, the tough get going, and live.


44 posted on 08/17/2011 7:25:34 PM PDT by Bellflower (Ecc 10:2 A wise man's heart [is] at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left.)
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To: mamelukesabre; Tolerance Sucks Rocks; Travis McGee; Squantos; Pelham
I think this writer is commenting on the accidental death rates for whites in US culture being defined by region...mountain, west and southern as being higher than other areas due to this Ulster Scots or Scotch-Irish as they called it where I grew up

Because the accidental death rates for blacks and hispanics is not as regionally defined in proportional quantity...they kill and at higher rates everywhere they are in large numbers...whereas say whites in Vermont sure as heck don't kill like my kin in Mississippi

blacks and hispanics kill each other far more than whites do but often for different reasons...profit and turf..not that blacks and hispanics do not kill for more intangible reasons too but it's a smaller part of the problem whereas with whites it is a big part...southern whites kill each other often stupidly for affronts..it's a wonder I never did

Orientals are I think off the radar on this..their killing rate being pretty damn low as a rule

I like how I grew up. I knew if I let my mouth overload my ass that there would be consequence...and possibly dire. And that has served me very well for 53 years..and I learned to fight and take a hit..but to be fair..the last part may be lost...it was lost on minorities already when I was young..you fought one black guy and you had to fight 3 or 4 and they would do it to each other too and loved to beat someone already down and dance around them...it's just different but I think low end whites now are no different in fighting etiquette (sorry for the derailment of the topic)

Muslims have honor killing too but far different..I'm not sure honor is really the reason southerners are quick to fight on insult...it can't be encapsulated that easy.

I do know from living in New York that confrontation without consequence between Yankees is a way of life...just watch how the northern loggers treat each other compared to how those Carolina boys act on those reality shows...it tells the story better than I can

You just can't get up in folks faces down here unless you are dealing with some Billy Budd hipster.

45 posted on 08/18/2011 9:01:46 AM PDT by wardaddy (I support Bachmann...or Palin should she enter...but I am not a Palin Harpy...know the difference)
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To: wardaddy

Its not just southerners. I grew up in the great plains area. I’ve never known a term for that kind of fighting style etiquette. I’m not sure if “ulster scot” is appropriate since it existed in the great plains area and most people there are of german and scandinavian extraction. But it could still be appropriate since a cultural characteristic can bleed over into other ethnicities...the english language is proof of that. I don’t speak german or danish and you don’t eat haggis or play bag pipes.

I had very little experience with minorities when growing up. The closest thing to a people I thought of as “other” at that time was catholics. They went to special schools and wore special clothing and wore special jewelry(saint christopher, the italian horn, etc). But in all other ways they were essentially the same. Their boys practiced the same fighting etiquette.

The first time I ever became aware of people who lacked the type of fighting etiquette you speak of was the first time I ever met a person from england. I was horrified. I told myself it was an aberration of this individual’s association with the punk rock scene that was new to america at that time. But little by little I began to realize the fighting etiquette did not exist in england AT ALL...and worse, this form of barbarism was spreading and there was no way to stop it.

In england, the typical fist fight was like this...everyone gathers around the two combatants and holds them prisoner inside a space inside the crowd until one of them is unable to defend himself any longer. Then the crowd stomps and kicks on the loser until he cannot move or is unconscious. The crowd may turn on the winner of the fight as well depending on the circumstances and how riled up everyone is. The two combatants know what is going to happen and they each try to inflict such serious damage to the other as quickly as possible in hopes that they can satiate the crowd’s blood lust and thus spare themselves from being victimized by the crowd. By being more bloodthirsty than the crowd, a winner can become one of the crowd rather than a victim of the crowd.

I do not think it has gotten this barbaric in america yet. But this is the direction of the trend.


46 posted on 08/18/2011 9:46:24 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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