Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Neanderthal survival story revealed in Jersey caves
BBC ^ | August 29, 2011 | Becky Evans

Posted on 08/30/2011 8:16:45 PM PDT by decimon

New investigations at an iconic cave site on the Channel Island of Jersey have led archaeologists to believe the Neanderthals have been widely under-estimated.

Neanderthals survived in Europe through a number of ice ages and died out only about 30,000 years ago.

The site at La Cotte de St Brelade reveals a near-continuous use of the cave site spanning over a quarter of a million years, suggesting a considerable success story in adapting to a changing climate and landscape, prior to the arrival of Homo sapiens.

New investigations at an iconic cave site on the Channel Island of Jersey have led archaeologists to believe the Neanderthals have been widely under-estimated.

Neanderthals survived in Europe through a number of ice ages and died out only about 30,000 years ago.

The site at La Cotte de St Brelade reveals a near-continuous use of the cave site spanning over a quarter of a million years, suggesting a considerable success story in adapting to a changing climate and landscape, prior to the arrival of Homo sapiens.

(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: godsgravesglyphs; godsgravesguidos; jerseyshore; joisey; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-59 next last

1 posted on 08/30/2011 8:16:48 PM PDT by decimon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Jersey shore ping.


2 posted on 08/30/2011 8:17:26 PM PDT by decimon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: decimon

3 posted on 08/30/2011 8:18:35 PM PDT by decimon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: decimon

This cracks me up. If two creatures can mate and deliver fertile offspring aren’t they the same species? Apparently, from what I read, that is the case between Neanderthals and “modern” men.


4 posted on 08/30/2011 8:18:41 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DManA

Modern biology has about 1000 definitions of “species”. Based on whichever bit of evidence is being examined, they choose a definition of species which does not invalidate Evolution. It’s really more Art than Science.


5 posted on 08/30/2011 8:21:48 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The USSR spent itself into bankruptcy and collapsed -- and aren't we on the same path now?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: DManA
I rest my case:
6 posted on 08/30/2011 8:22:04 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: decimon

Is that “The Situation”?


7 posted on 08/30/2011 8:22:51 PM PDT by Rocky (REPEAL IT!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy

For sure these Big Media excuses for Science Reporting leave you dumber than you were before you read them.


8 posted on 08/30/2011 8:24:16 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: decimon

Clearly our some of our ancient ancestors had more of a problem being inclusive than others.


9 posted on 08/30/2011 8:26:08 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: ClearCase_guy

You are 100% correct.


10 posted on 08/30/2011 8:32:34 PM PDT by kingpins10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: decimon

I did read the article before I posted this. Interesting. The Digging for Britain link at the article does not work. It sounds worth watching.

11 posted on 08/30/2011 8:54:45 PM PDT by BBell
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DManA
"If two creatures can mate and deliver fertile offspring aren’t they the same species?"

I believe that there is a problem in describing "species." I know that horses and donkeys can produce a sturdy work animal called a mule. Mules aren't supposed to be able to reproduce but, from time to time, they do reproduce.

But, in the case of traditional humans and Neanderthals, I believe that one would have to be very drunk to tie up with one of those.

12 posted on 08/30/2011 8:58:44 PM PDT by davisfh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: DManA
"If two creatures can mate and deliver fertile offspring aren’t they the same species?"

I believe that there is a problem in describing "species." I know that horses and donkeys can produce a sturdy work animal called a mule. Mules aren't supposed to be able to reproduce but, from time to time, they do reproduce.

But, in the case of traditional humans and Neanderthals, I believe that one would have to be very drunk to tie up with one of those.

13 posted on 08/30/2011 9:02:10 PM PDT by davisfh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: decimon

God, I hope Sunken Civ doesn’t drag out that worn-out quote about Neanderthal jawbones again. :-)


14 posted on 08/30/2011 9:05:23 PM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BBell

Guidos! Proof that Man hasn’t evolved.


15 posted on 08/30/2011 9:05:39 PM PDT by Pelham ("Resist we much!" - Al 'Jiffypop' Sharpton)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: davisfh

but, from time to time, they do reproduce.

That is something I did not know.

Do you have a link to back the up (I’m not doubting you, I really am curious)


16 posted on 08/30/2011 9:08:30 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: decimon

The Neanderthals still survive in the British Labor Party.

Their caves don’t have stalagtites but something of a similar name, Stalintites.


17 posted on 08/30/2011 9:08:49 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DManA
From wikipedia:

Mules and Hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse's 64 and the donkey's 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.

There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions. A few female mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey. Since 1527 there have been more than 60 documented cases of foals born to female mules around the world. There are reports that a mule in China produced a foal in 1984. In Morocco, in early 2002, a mare mule produced a rare foal. In 2007 a mule named Kate gave birth to a mule son in Colorado. Blood and hair samples were tested verifying that the mother was a mule and the colt was indeed her offspring.

18 posted on 08/30/2011 9:17:50 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (The USSR spent itself into bankruptcy and collapsed -- and aren't we on the same path now?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: DManA
No problem. I'd doubt a comment like that myself. Take a look here (you may have to copy and paste):

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/mule-reproduction-47843/

There seems to be a problem with disparate numbers of chromosomes between horses and mules, but apparently, this problem is "sidetracked" from time to time.

The question is posed at top of page and you'll have to cursor down about half a page to see the answer.

19 posted on 08/30/2011 9:18:46 PM PDT by davisfh
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: davisfh

Thanks, I’ll look at it. These issues are not simple.


20 posted on 08/30/2011 9:22:14 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: wildbill; SunkenCiv

“God, I hope Sunken Civ doesn’t drag out that worn-out quote about Neanderthal jawbones again. :-)”

Sorry, couldn’t help myself.


21 posted on 08/30/2011 9:30:50 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: davisfh
But, in the case of traditional humans and Neanderthals, I believe that one would have to be very drunk to tie up with one of those.

Within the last several days an article stating that Neanderthal/Homo Sapien matings gave contemporary humans especially effective immune systems. So beer gogles may be at work, or it is more complicated than that, if these genetic markers prove out.
22 posted on 08/30/2011 9:51:50 PM PDT by bajabaja (Too ugly to be scanned at the airports.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: davisfh
But, in the case of traditional humans and Neanderthals, I believe that one would have to be very drunk to tie up with one of those.

Within the last several days an article stating that Neanderthal/Homo Sapien matings gave contemporary humans especially effective immune systems. So beer goggles may be at work, or it is more complicated than that, if these genetic markers prove out.
23 posted on 08/30/2011 9:52:35 PM PDT by bajabaja (Too ugly to be scanned at the airports.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: BBell
You could pour a drum of Clorox into that pool, and I still wouldn't get into it afterwards.

"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: for men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away, for his name is Obama."

24 posted on 08/30/2011 11:48:11 PM PDT by Viking2002 (RELEASE THE KRAKEN!!!!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: SatinDoll; wildbill

Just for that...
The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve

in local libraries
Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]

25 posted on 08/31/2011 4:42:00 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: decimon; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks decimon.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


26 posted on 08/31/2011 4:44:49 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: DManA
This cracks me up. If two creatures can mate and deliver fertile offspring aren’t they the same species? Apparently, from what I read, that is the case between Neanderthals and “modern” men.

The common definition of "species" has a set of organisms belonging to the same species if a male and female can produce fertile offspring. If Neanderthals could successfully interbreed with modern humans then Neanderthal was just another race of human.

27 posted on 08/31/2011 4:50:50 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: davisfh
But, in the case of traditional humans and Neanderthals, I believe that one would have to be very drunk to tie up with one of those.

One common artist's conception has Neanderthal girls not being all that bad looking:


28 posted on 08/31/2011 4:55:07 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (When you've only heard lies your entire life, the truth sounds insane.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: decimon

Neanderthal survival story revealed in Jersey caves

Don Giovanni's people were strong, despite having limp lizards...


29 posted on 08/31/2011 5:12:29 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (Obama is the least qualified guy in whatever room he walks into.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PapaBear3625; Lazmataz

Hey, Laz would hit it!


30 posted on 08/31/2011 5:13:52 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (Obama is the least qualified guy in whatever room he walks into.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: decimon
Put a 7-11 uniform on him and he'd blend in just fine...


31 posted on 08/31/2011 5:24:57 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (Obama is the least qualified guy in whatever room he walks into.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: SatinDoll; SunkenCiv

I notice that the book is identified as “in local libraries”
with a link to finding the libraries who have a copy. And I found it listed on Amazon.com for sale.... for $0.01. Yep, it’s worth a penny... plus shipping.

You know you’ve got something rare when the shipping is more than the book itself.

Must be a relative. Or have we at long last solved the greatest enigma of all (save Jack the Ripper’s identity)——
Who is Sunken Civ.


32 posted on 08/31/2011 6:00:51 AM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: COBOL2Java
Put a 7-11 uniform on him and he'd blend in just fine...

I posted a larger version of that some time ago and people were saying it looks just like their old shop teacher or some such.

33 posted on 08/31/2011 6:39:01 AM PDT by decimon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: decimon
I posted a larger version of that some time ago and people were saying it looks just like their old shop teacher or some such.

Put a hair net on him and it could be your High School cafeteria lady...

34 posted on 08/31/2011 6:53:40 AM PDT by COBOL2Java (Obama is the least qualified guy in whatever room he walks into.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: wildbill; SunkenCiv
Who is Sunken Civ.

John Dingell.

35 posted on 08/31/2011 6:55:13 AM PDT by decimon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: bajabaja; davisfh

“So beer gogles may be at work, or it is more complicated than that, if these genetic markers prove out.”

Does PC still allow one to whisper that perhaps the genes got into our pool through Neanderthal men raping Homo Sapiens women?


36 posted on 08/31/2011 9:35:31 AM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: dsc
Likely not.

And not for any PC reasons either. A Neanderthal man/Sapiens woman cross would likely have a very large head in comparison to a pure Sapiens baby. Chances of the child being delivered alive and mother and child living would be quite small.

A Neanderthal woman/Sapiens man cross would likely have a smaller head then a pure Neanderthal baby would be so the mother and child would have had a greater chance of living.

37 posted on 08/31/2011 9:51:26 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Can we ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Easily. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Harmless Teddy Bear

Yes, that’s true, but couldn’t the offspring of a Neanderman/Sapgirl cross have a chance to survive?


38 posted on 08/31/2011 10:48:39 AM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: wildbill

Dear wildbill,

Some of the best books never make it to the best sellers list. On the other hand, they’re intensely popular with people who have specialized interests, and these books have had multiple editions printed out over many decades. Two books that come to mind are: The Worldly Philosophers (economics) and The Road to Serfdom (economics; Hayek).

So, as to who is SunkenCiv?

Good question. He/she puts out the astronomy photo of the day and most of the godsgravesglyphs articles on Free Republic.

;-)


39 posted on 08/31/2011 11:20:12 AM PDT by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: dsc

PC or not, I agree, that may have happened. But it may have been the other way around. Beer goggles could make Neanderthal gals cute. Lots and lots of beer.


40 posted on 08/31/2011 1:59:13 PM PDT by bajabaja (Too ugly to be scanned at the airports.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: SatinDoll

Sunken and I have a very friendly and joking relationship going back several years.

I love to tweak him about his posts and he tweaks me back.

As to who he is, his name is Etaoin Shrdlu. He is the last survivor of an alien civilization that crashed into the sea eons ago. This is all documented on the History channel series on Aliens visiting Earth as Gods.


41 posted on 08/31/2011 2:24:58 PM PDT by wildbill (You're just jealous because the Voices talk only to me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: bajabaja

I ain’t never been *that* drunk.


42 posted on 08/31/2011 5:15:28 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: bajabaja

I ain’t never been *that* drunk.


43 posted on 08/31/2011 5:25:31 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: dsc
Maybe, not likely because a large head birth usually kills the mother with the baby still inside not fully delivered, but it could happen. There is another factor though, usually for a nomadic people if the mother died the newborn was buried with the mother. They would had had no way to feed the baby usually. If there were any nursing mothers with the band they would not have had enough milk for another child.

So you would have had the baby born alive and a nursing mother who had lost her own child in the last few days with a mate who was willing to allow her to nurse another man's child knowing that she would not give him a child until that one was done nursing. If you had all those events come together then you could have your scenario.

Conclusion: Possible

But it would be stretching things a bit. Might make a good movie script!

44 posted on 08/31/2011 5:31:03 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Can we ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Easily. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Harmless Teddy Bear

Standards of beauty change. Maybe the Neandergals looked pretty hot to Sapman.

Or maybe the Neanderthals were a race of genetic geniuses trying to breed a race of untermenschen to serve them.


45 posted on 08/31/2011 5:57:26 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: wildbill

I’ve had that happen. I bought a copy of an old, out-of-print, self-published two-volume work by a deceased author for (as I recall) about $5, which couldn’t be much more than it cost to ship. The seller was headed for missions work, and was selling literally everything (CD collection, library) that could reasonably be sold online at that time. I’ve often thought it would be a good work to make available (ahem) online.

But anyway, if you can get a couple copies, I highly recommend doing so. It’s from the 1990s, and despite that quote I post so frequently, the writer whores around with other species of views. At that time, the “Neandertal was an inferior, that’s why IT went extinct” view still reigned. The author does a good job, even got to talk to that POS from Stanford who’s dead now (and good riddance).


46 posted on 08/31/2011 6:11:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: wildbill

Oh yeah, and that find in local libraries link is something I used to include quite a bit. Well, okay, maybe three titles. I’ve gotten lazy.


47 posted on 08/31/2011 6:13:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: decimon; wildbill

Both of you are blowing my cover. Now everyone knows the truth — that I’m an elderly Democrat who has never held a job, and has managed to conceal his alien ancestry. Last time I give you guys personal info. ;’)


48 posted on 08/31/2011 6:15:17 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: SatinDoll

And wildbill traces his ancestry back to ice-age mammoth hunters.


49 posted on 08/31/2011 6:16:22 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's never a bad time to FReep this link -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Oh, bite me.

All Hand-to-Mouth clanns are democrats. It is a survival instinct - feed the family, no hoarding. Children eat first.

When It gets bigger than a village, is when the problems come in.

Having outed myself as a democrat, I have an interesting theory - what if, as with the mules discussed above, the female hybrids were sometimes fertile, but the males never were?

That would explain the whole thing.


50 posted on 08/31/2011 6:45:33 PM PDT by patton (I am sure that I have done dumber things in my life, but at the moment, I am unable to recall them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-59 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson