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Women in Space.
DiogenesLamp

Posted on 08/31/2011 9:07:49 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp

Messed up a bit on my first attempt. :)

Legal question for all you jus soli types. Suppose a foreign woman was orbiting the earth. Does the child become an American only if they happen to be over the United States when he pokes his head out?

This is why your argument is so stupid. Ponder that for a bit.


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KEYWORDS: naturalborncitizen; ozone; troll; vanity; zot
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To: drpix
Many foreign flights from Canada & the Caribbean are granted the privilege to fly through US air-space. Neither those aircraft or any of the passengers are considered to have "entered" the U.S..

Without a landing, births on those flights are legally outside the U.S.. "Jus soli" ("right of soil") means what it means. Space craft and their passengers outside the earth's atmosphere fail even more to meet "jus soli."

For the purpose of the thought experiment, technicalities are irrelevant. The entire point of this mental exercise is to demonstrate how silly it is to regard birth above our soil as a conveyance of citizenship. Anchor babies ought to be as clear of a case of this as anything else, but somehow people don't seem to be able to see the absurdity in something unless the absurdity is raised to ridiculous levels.
(Argumentum ad absurdum.)

21 posted on 08/31/2011 11:08:35 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Can you not do this without my help for the purposes of answering the question? Use a hot air balloon for all I care, dodging the point by invoking irrelevant technicalities is not the behavior of someone who has an actual rebuttal.

So if a hot air balloon is orbiting the Earth and a baby is born....

To technically answer you question, jus soli is "right of the soil". Being born of foreign parents within territorial waters, within an American embassy compound, or in the airspace of the United States would not entitle a person to de facto citizenship, unless a court so ruled that it did. In the past, they have not been so inclined. Babies born in the air are generally assigned a birthplace according to where the plane lands, but it does not follow that jus soli would also apply. In any event, there is a near zero chance that a foreign baby born in U.S. airspace, but not landing in the U.S. would be given jus soli citizenship.

That is the technically correct answer.

22 posted on 08/31/2011 11:10:42 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: rawcatslyentist
A better question is which way in orbit do mudslimes face to pray to satanallah ?

That question is what actually caused me to think of the birth in orbit thing. Apparently the Religious authorities of Malaysia have granted indulgences for Astronauts praying towards Mecca. :)

23 posted on 08/31/2011 11:10:51 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: Elsiejay
No doubt you are aware, if establishing eligibility for holding the office of President of the U.S.A. is the basis of the little fable you have posited, that it is also required that both parents of a prospective candidate for said office be citizens of the U.S.A. at the time of his/her birth, no matter where birth occurred.

I agree. That is the basis for pushing jus soli to it's ridiculous conclusions.

24 posted on 08/31/2011 11:12:28 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: Ratman83
Over an hour and no ZOT wow.

And why would there be a zot anyway? Apart from that, it is amazing that so many of my admirers feel that the best way to handle an inconvenient truth is by forcing silence on an opinion which they disagree with. Are your principles worth so little then?

I welcome debate.

25 posted on 08/31/2011 11:18:20 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: SoftwareEngineer
So, use a better example, maybe an airplane...

It's been awhile since I've flown but I recall the flight attendants pulling the drink cart when we passed over a dry state. It would seem that at least that airline considered States Rights when passing through sovereign territory.

As to the hypothetical pregnant astronaut, I would think that a 5g liftoff would be enough to insure a birth while still in sight of the launch site.

Regards,
GtG

26 posted on 08/31/2011 11:24:52 AM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

Debate on what a comment that has no basis in fact or law. You are full of it.


27 posted on 08/31/2011 11:25:16 AM PDT by Ratman83
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To: IronJack
The Diogenes of old walked the streets of Athens with a lantern, looking for an honest man.

This Diogenes should spend some time looking for his common sense. For that he needs a lamp less than he needs a colonscope.

If I have a failure in common sense it is my persistence in attempting discussion and debate with those who prefer to snark. Perhaps you are accustomed to finding common sense in your rectum, but to the rest of us what you produce looks more like crap than wisdom.

28 posted on 08/31/2011 11:41:56 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: SampleMan
In any event, there is a near zero chance that a foreign baby born in U.S. airspace, but not landing in the U.S. would be given jus soli citizenship.

That is the technically correct answer.

So does touching upon land make one an American? Also wouldn't that occur AFTER birth? What nationality is a baby BEFORE it touches land, and if it is not already American (due to jus sanguinius) then wouldn't it be born into a foreign allegiance first?

29 posted on 08/31/2011 11:48:08 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: Ratman83
Debate on what a comment that has no basis in fact or law. You are full of it.

And you are not. Apparently the "it" to which we are referring is the ability to comprehend a thought experiment. I would suggest that if your mental facilities are not up to the task, you might want to leave discussion and debate to others.

30 posted on 08/31/2011 11:51:09 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

Gandalf,

Interesting legal question. Actually, this has come up in Case Law before.

Dry states (and states that extract excises) have tried to ban/tax airliners flying over their states and serving alcohol. I believe the most recent example was New Mexico

Another famous case law pertains a fugitive from Texas (where he had warrants pending). He was on a domestic flight transiting Texas airspace (just transit). The plane was forced down and he was arrested


31 posted on 08/31/2011 11:52:15 AM PDT by SoftwareEngineer
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To: DiogenesLamp
So does touching upon land make one an American?

The courts have said no. I covered that.

Also wouldn't that occur AFTER birth?

Yes, which is why the courts have tended to say no concerning ship and plane births.

What nationality is a baby BEFORE it touches land, and if it is not already American (due to jus sanguinius) then wouldn't it be born into a foreign allegiance first?

Citizenship depends upon the laws of the parent's country. It is conceivable that a child would have no citizenship. This is the standard case in in most European countries where babies are born of non-citizen parents and no right of birth exists.

You are presuming that a baby must be born a citizen of some country, that is not the case.

Most countries would claim a child born to their citizens as a citizen, regardless of place of birth.

32 posted on 08/31/2011 11:56:01 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SampleMan
You are presuming that a baby must be born a citizen of some country, that is not the case.

Suits me. If it is not born of a country, then it isn't born of the American country.

Most countries would claim a child born to their citizens as a citizen, regardless of place of birth.

Not quite. I am claiming that a child of indeterminate birth is not a "natural born citizen", and cannot become one after the fact of birth.

33 posted on 08/31/2011 12:03:01 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

Women on trampolines!


34 posted on 08/31/2011 12:13:59 PM PDT by PhiloBedo
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To: DiogenesLamp

A thought experiment with no basis in fact. Space is not in a country; your whole experiment is BS. Obviously so is your brain.


35 posted on 08/31/2011 12:19:13 PM PDT by Ratman83
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Identify the thread relevant, obscure pop culture reference in this picture and win a Marco Rubio Magic Birther Decoder Ring.


36 posted on 08/31/2011 12:27:26 PM PDT by Tex-Con-Man
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To: PhiloBedo
Women on trampolines!

Now your thinking! Might even get an acceleration assist on pushing! :)

37 posted on 08/31/2011 1:14:43 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: Ratman83
A thought experiment with no basis in fact. Space is not in a country; your whole experiment is BS. Obviously so is your brain.

Do try and keep up. Focus on the salient point and do not worry about trivial details. I have put forth an argumentum ad absurdum, and though silly comments such as yours add to the comic relief component, they are just noise in every other respect.

38 posted on 08/31/2011 1:24:00 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

I’m wondering where “the rest of us” are. All I see is you.

Perhaps your lamp is low on fuel. Or your vision is obstructed by matters more fecal than philosophical.

In any event, as common sense — and any number of respondents — would indicate, since space is (by treaty) the sovereign claim of no nation, the laws regarding citizenship of babies born therein would be similar, if not identical, to those regarding similar births on the high seas.


39 posted on 08/31/2011 1:35:03 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: IronJack
I’m wondering where “the rest of us” are. All I see is you.

You are over matched with just me, so you shouldn't concern yourself with anyone else.

Perhaps your lamp is low on fuel.

Perhaps I shouldn't have thrown a rock into a pack of dogs. The caterwauling of the injured whelp is distracting.

Or your vision is obstructed by matters more fecal than philosophical.

To your level of perception, one is much the same as the other.

In any event, as common sense — and any number of respondents — would indicate, since space is (by treaty) the sovereign claim of no nation, the laws regarding citizenship of babies born therein would be similar, if not identical, to those regarding similar births on the high seas.

Yes, and if Einstein were explaining his famous "Elevator" Gedankenexperiment , you and your ilk wouldn't be able to get past the "There are no elevators with cables that long" stage. (infantile miscomprehension)

http://www.natscience.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/physics/30442/STRICH-Strict-Analyses-of-the-Einstein-Elevator-Gedanken

40 posted on 08/31/2011 2:00:19 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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