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To: SampleMan
That depends on the definition of "indeterminate" and "natural born". If it means recognized as a citizen from birth without a naturalization process, then that applies regardless of place of birth or timing of recognition, e.g. American parents on the moon.

Ah, but we are speaking of foreign parents, and restricting the argument for citizenship to be that of being born over American territory. The jus soli (or 14th amendment misreaders) argue that the only thing necessary for a person to be a "natural born citizen" is birth within the borders. My example is put forth to demonstrate how silly of a standard is this.

If there is a legal clarification of the term "natural born" to be restrictive to geographical birth, then the term is more restrictive.

There are those that argue that parents are irrelevant to the citizenship of a child born within the borders of the United States. They claim that anyone born within it's borders are "natural born citizens" just BECAUSE they were born within the borders.

No doubt your underlying premise is the use of "natural born" in the Constitution. Interestingly, none of the Founders were born within a United States of America, but their birth rite was grandfathered in.

As there could be no "natural born citizens" until the nation existed, they had no other choice.

What exactly is your point of contention; the Obama birth right? If he was foreign born with a foreign parent and declared foreign citizenship before U.S. citizenship, he has some clear challenges concerning meeting the qualification of "natural born".

I like to break things down into small clearly defined pieces and go from there. I am trying to demonstrate that birth within the borders of a nation is a foolish standard for declaring someone a citizen. It was used under English Common law because it gave the King an excuse to claim more servants. It was used under the 14th amendment (with qualifications which everyone seems to ignore) because former slaves had no jus sanguinus claim on citizenship.

49 posted on 08/31/2011 5:02:48 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (1790 Congress: No children of a foreign father may be a citizen.)
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To: DiogenesLamp

As much as I detect the concept of anchor babies and citizenship by happenstance, there is a downside to eliminating birthright citizenship.

Take a look at Europe where you have stateless people of the fourth and fifth generation and beyond.

Would you be comfortable with deporting families that have been here for 100 years? Not I.

Truly, this is only a problem because we don’t enforce our borders.

If you can show that you AND your mother were born in the USA, then automatic citizenship. Otherwise, due process to assertain citizenship.


52 posted on 08/31/2011 5:26:04 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
I don't think it's really a thought experiment because there must be answers already (though maybe multiple conflicting answers). Babies have been born on planes and in airports. Find out what citizenship they ended up with. This article outlines some of the possibilities, but I note that it doesn't take into account the citizenship of the parents or the nationality of the carrier.

So the question of what citizenship a baby born on an airplane has, has a real-world answer, if you care to research it. If the answer is that a baby born on an airplane is (in some cases) an American citizen, then you're back to the argument over whether "born an American citizen" means the same thing as "natural born American citizen" or not. And we know the arguments on both sides of that, so I don't think your thought experiment gets us anywhere.

55 posted on 08/31/2011 5:46:45 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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