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Gone in 60 nanoseconds - ( Faster than light possible? )
WaPo ^ | October 6, 2011 | Charles Krauthammer

Posted on 10/07/2011 8:47:49 AM PDT by re_tail20

“We don’t allow faster-than-light neutrinos in here,” says the bartender.

A neutrino walks into a bar.

— Joke circulating on the Internet

The world as we know it is on the brink of disintegration, on the verge of dissolution. No, I’m not talking about the collapse of the euro, of international finance, of the Western economies, of the democratic future, of the unipolar moment, of the American dream, of French banks, of Greece as a going concern, of Europe as an idea, of Pax Americana — the sinews of a postwar world that feels today to be unraveling.

I am talking about something far more important. Which is why it made only the back pages of your newspaper, if it made it at all. Scientists at CERN, the European high-energy physics consortium, have announced the discovery of a particle that can travel faster than light.

Neutrinos fired 454 miles from a supercollider outside Geneva to an underground laboratory in Gran Sasso, Italy, took less time (60 nanoseconds less) than light to get there. Or so the physicists think. Or so they measured. Or so they have concluded after checking for every possible artifact and experimental error.

The implications of such a discovery are so mind-boggling, however, that these same scientists immediately requested that other labs around the world try to replicate the experiment. Something must have been wrong — some faulty measurement, some overlooked contaminant — to account for a result that, if we know anything about the universe, is impossible.

And that’s the problem. It has to be impossible because, if not, if that did happen on this Orient Express hurtling between Switzerland and Italy, then everything we know about the universe is wrong.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Science
KEYWORDS: krauthammer

1 posted on 10/07/2011 8:47:52 AM PDT by re_tail20
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To: re_tail20
everything we know about the universe is wrong

Painting with a pretty broad brush. Everything THEY know...

2 posted on 10/07/2011 8:52:08 AM PDT by bigheadfred (But alas)
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To: re_tail20
...these same scientists immediately requested that other labs around the world try to replicate the experiment.

The way science used to work, the global warming guys should try this method.

3 posted on 10/07/2011 8:53:08 AM PDT by Slicksadick (Go out on a limb........Its where the fruit is.)
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To: re_tail20
The implications of such a discovery are so mind-boggling, however, that these same scientists immediately requested that other labs around the world try to replicate the experiment.

Everyone knows that real scientists (like climatologists) bury the raw data, claim that their results are undeniable and set up the stake for a heretic burning for anyone who denies their claims.

A 60 nanosecond difference over 454 miles would be 0.0025% faster than the speed of light. There's lots of room for experimental error of that scale.

4 posted on 10/07/2011 8:59:18 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (Compare "Delay is preferable to error" - Thomas Jefferson // "Pass this bill now!" - Barack Obama)
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To: re_tail20
Everything we know about the universe is wrong.

Nope. I know that my Redeemer liveth.

5 posted on 10/07/2011 9:00:13 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne (Fall on your knees before Christ, your only salvation!)
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To: re_tail20
Was that faster than twitter?

And I thought that the science was settled?

6 posted on 10/07/2011 9:01:18 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (I didn't know she was a liberal when I married her.)
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To: re_tail20

Come one people...according to the leftist godless scientists like Lawrence Krauss the universe was created from a random quantum fluctuation and it happened without a “god”. End of story./sarc


7 posted on 10/07/2011 9:03:12 AM PDT by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: re_tail20

“then everything we know about the universe is wrong”

Even if faster than light travel is possible, this isn’t true. It’s hyperbole. Was everything we knew about the universe wrong when Newton was proved wrong? No. We still follow him, in the limited shpere where he applies (i.e. inbetween atoms and planets), like we’ve done since the 17th century. We’ve stuck with Einstein despite his system being overturned by quantum physics, which some people date to five years before his development of the Special Theory of Relativity.

We will stick with nearly everything we know, if this is true, except that which is directly affected by the possibility of faster than light travel.


8 posted on 10/07/2011 9:04:22 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: re_tail20
Story on /. says that what was not taken into account was gravity and its distortion of time.

"Two weeks ago, researchers claimed particles called neutrinos were travelling faster-than-light and violating the laws of special relativity. But now it looks as though general relativity might be behind the experiment's unusual result. An independent analysis claims that the original experiment, known as OPERA, failed to take into account differences in earth's gravitational field between the neutrino source and the OPERA detector. As Nature News reports, gravity can distort time according to Einstein's theory, and the effect could explain why neutrinos appear to arrive 60 nanoseconds ahead of schedule. The OPERA team is now reviewing the new analysis."

9 posted on 10/07/2011 9:05:20 AM PDT by Michael Barnes (Obamaa+ Downgrade)
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To: KarlInOhio
When I read stories like this, I'm always reminded of this quote....

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts" - Richard Feynmen

10 posted on 10/07/2011 9:09:04 AM PDT by lormand (A Government who robs Peter to pay Paul, will always have the support of Paul)
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To: re_tail20

The speed of light is inviolable. The science is settled. Deniers.


11 posted on 10/07/2011 9:10:50 AM PDT by steveyp
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To: re_tail20
Maybe the receiving site was moving towards the sending site (e.g. the Earth's rotation) in terms of a fixed point in the Universe. The neutrinos, which are notoriously indifferent to the medium they are passing through, would therefore have less distance to travel and everything would be alright.
12 posted on 10/07/2011 9:26:26 AM PDT by I am Richard Brandon
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To: KarlInOhio
A 60 nanosecond difference over 454 miles

Measuring 60 nsec differences on oscilloscopes is routine.

13 posted on 10/07/2011 9:32:29 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman father of Quantum Physics)
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To: re_tail20

There is pretty good theory/mathematics now that show FTL is possible.

The only limitation being that you cannot travel AT the speed of light.

How that works with the Lorentz transformations, I am not sure.

Beyond Einstein’s Unified Field:
Gravity and Electromagnetism Redefined
John Brandenburg, Ph.D.


14 posted on 10/07/2011 9:35:29 AM PDT by djf (Soon you will need a prescription for EVERY SINGLE VITAMIN.)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
Measuring 60 nsec differences on oscilloscopes is routine.

Even when you are on the 500µs/division setting to get the entire 2.44ms travel time on the screen at once?

15 posted on 10/07/2011 9:39:01 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (Compare "Delay is preferable to error" - Thomas Jefferson // "Pass this bill now!" - Barack Obama)
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To: Tublecane
We will stick with nearly everything we know, if this is true, except that which is directly affected by the possibility of faster than light travel.

cosmology will be affected hugely. distances are measured/calculated assuming light speed is constant. And E=Mc^2 needs to be rethought/modified.

16 posted on 10/07/2011 9:42:10 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman father of Quantum Physics)
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To: lormand
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts" - Richard Feynmen

read my tag line.

17 posted on 10/07/2011 9:44:15 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman father of Quantum Physics)
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To: KarlInOhio
Even when you are on the 500µs/division setting to get the entire 2.44ms travel time on the screen at once?

you need a special scope, or maybe a precise delay filter.

18 posted on 10/07/2011 9:52:00 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman father of Quantum Physics)
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To: re_tail20

“Man will never break the sound barrier....it’s impossible”


19 posted on 10/07/2011 9:55:08 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (Public employee unions are the barbarian hordes of our time.)
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To: Psycho_Bunny
"“Man will never break the sound barrier....it’s impossible”"

Bad comparison. First, whoever originally said that was an idiot. It was never impossible, it was just hard. Second, the sound barrier was only ever a technological issue, not an issue involving the fundamental character of the universe.

20 posted on 10/07/2011 10:07:02 AM PDT by mlo
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
"cosmology will be affected hugely. distances are measured/calculated assuming light speed is constant. And E=Mc^2 needs to be rethought/modified."

How is any of that brought into question? The experiment didn't show light going faster.

21 posted on 10/07/2011 10:08:27 AM PDT by mlo
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To: Tublecane
"Even if faster than light travel is possible, this isn’t true. It’s hyperbole. Was everything we knew about the universe wrong when Newton was proved wrong? No. We still follow him, in the limited shpere where he applies (i.e. inbetween atoms and planets), like we’ve done since the 17th century."

Exactly. People like to talk about throwing out everything we know when there's some suprising develpment. It's nonsense.

"We’ve stuck with Einstein despite his system being overturned by quantum physics, which some people date to five years before his development of the Special Theory of Relativity."

A correction to this though. Quantum physics did not overturn relativity. Both theories have been tested to extreme degrees and both are accepted foundational theories of physics. They just don't have much overlap.

22 posted on 10/07/2011 10:13:11 AM PDT by mlo
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To: mlo
How is any of that brought into question? The experiment didn't show light going faster.

c being constant is now called into question.....c a constant and/or a speed limit is probably a localized or special phenomena by implication.

23 posted on 10/07/2011 10:41:13 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts." Richard Feynman father of Quantum Physics)
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To: re_tail20
Gone in 60 nanoseconds - ( Faster than light possible? )

Gravity, though not waves in gravity, is faster than light. A device that detects the gravity of the sun will indicate a location in the sky where the sun actually is, rather than where it appears to be, which would not be the case if solar gravity were no speedier than the light coming from the sun.
24 posted on 10/07/2011 10:46:30 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: re_tail20
Neutrinos fired

After they were fired, they showed up at "Occupy Wall Street" within 60 nanoseconds.

25 posted on 10/07/2011 11:53:28 AM PDT by Larry Lucido (I can only be series in a parallel universe.)
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To: re_tail20
The fundamental axiom of Einstein’s theory of relativity is the absolute prohibition on speed faster than light.

Not quite correct. The fundamental axiom of Einstein's theory is that the speed of light is the same for all observers, regardless of their velocity. The speed of light as a speed limit is a consequence of this constancy. Should this experiment with neutrinos turn out to be correct, we'd have to go back and examine whether different observers (moving at different velocities) measure different values for the speed of light.

26 posted on 10/07/2011 12:22:10 PM PDT by JoeFromSidney (New book: RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY. A primer on armed revolt. Available form Amazon.)
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To: re_tail20
...if that did happen on this Orient Express hurtling between Switzerland and Italy, then everything we know about the universe is wrong.

Stand by, film at 11:00...

Regards,
GtG

27 posted on 10/07/2011 1:32:03 PM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: steveyp
The speed of light is inviolable. The science is settled. Deniers.

                    C

Not just a good idea, It's the law!

Regards,
GtG

28 posted on 10/07/2011 1:44:58 PM PDT by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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29 posted on 10/07/2011 2:32:23 PM PDT by TheOldLady (FReepmail me to get ON or OFF the ZOT LIGHTNING ping list)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan
"c being constant is now called into question....."

It doesn't call C being a constant into question. It only suggests that some things that aren't light might exceed that constant. We don't actually know what the implications might be because nobody has worked out a theory yet that would explain these observations (and they probably won't because this won't hold up), but there's nothing about them that require doubting the constancy of the speed of light and there have been a great many other experiments that have already confirmed it.

30 posted on 10/08/2011 2:02:08 PM PDT by mlo
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To: aruanan
"Gravity, though not waves in gravity, is faster than light. A device that detects the gravity of the sun will indicate a location in the sky where the sun actually is, rather than where it appears to be, which would not be the case if solar gravity were no speedier than the light coming from the sun."

Gravity isn't instantaneous either.

31 posted on 10/08/2011 2:05:49 PM PDT by mlo
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To: mlo
Gravity isn't instantaneous either.

No, but some 25 times the speed of light is pretty stinking fast. For practical purposes, as far as satellites and space flight is concerned, though, gravity is treated as instantaneous.
32 posted on 10/08/2011 6:30:27 PM PDT by aruanan
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