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Free Trade and the Steel Industry
YouTube ^ | 1978 | Milton Friedman

Posted on 10/09/2011 1:37:52 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot

Milton Friedman shows the stupidity of tariffs.


TOPICS: Business/Economy
KEYWORDS: economy; global; tariffs; world
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To: slowhandluke
Suppose the other party undercuts our prices, ends up owning the entire industry, and finances our spending not by buying the stuff we make but by loaning us back what we spent. Then, when we are used to buying stuff without making anything to sell in return, they pull the rug out. We would be hosed.

Suppose we have a government that inflates the dollar supply for over half a century. Prices and wages are continually higher than they would have been, making our goods and labor too expensive to compete.

You're speculating in semi-Marxist baloney. What I'm saying has actually happened. And, yes, we're hosed. You've reached the correct conclusion, you're just mistaken about how to fix it.

You protectionists, who will defend your other freedoms to the death, are all too willing to suddenly let government regulate our economic lives -- all for the common good, of course.

Well, there's a long history of people calling for "small" infringements on freedom -- for the common good. Funny that the common good is never advanced by them.

51 posted on 10/09/2011 3:04:05 PM PDT by BfloGuy (Even the opponents of Socialism are dominated by socialist ideas.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I’m not surprised to find reading comprehension problems among people who support ‘free trade’.


52 posted on 10/09/2011 3:07:13 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: dennisw

That’s OK mistakes happen.

I agree with you on the China problem though. As a Government they are dishonest and it is very difficult to play with a dishonest player. Sometimes it’s best to leave the table if you can.

There is a pretty good article from 2004 in Business Week i just skimmed over it was interesting you may want to look at it. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_49/b3911401.htm


53 posted on 10/09/2011 3:16:52 PM PDT by fudimo
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To: Toddsterpatriot
How can you fight an all out war with:

Without:

to make these:

and these:


54 posted on 10/09/2011 3:22:02 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines
You can go ahead and make the cars here, and bear a $7000 union “tax” for each car, and another $3000 EPA “tax” for each car you make here. And then have a 20% tariff on the import of your car overseas. And pay 35% profits on any money you make on that car.

That is such BS. Labor accounts for only 10% of the MSRP on autos. Even less for non union built cars. Do some research and quit spreading lies.

55 posted on 10/09/2011 3:27:43 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: dennisw

Future generations are going to curse the Free Traitors of today. The greediest generation gave away the store and ate the seed corn.


56 posted on 10/09/2011 3:30:07 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: BfloGuy
You protectionists, who will defend your other freedoms to the death, are all too willing to suddenly let government regulate our economic lives -- all for the common good, of course.

I believe in free trade amongst the 50 states. I believe in protectionism when countries use unfair trade practices or are COMMUNIST. Perhaps you forgot that part.

57 posted on 10/09/2011 3:33:17 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: driftdiver

Oh, it’s very simple! However, the cause isn’t because the other nations got stronger, it’s because we got weaker. We decided to become a “give me” society back in the late 60s and it’s been downhill ever since.

How do you propose we’ll tax ourselves into prosperity? That’s what a call for increased tariffs fundamentally are - increasing the taxes paid by US consumers in an attempt to spur domestic prosperity.


58 posted on 10/09/2011 3:41:25 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: central_va
Maybe you should educate yourself...

Regarding union health care, "Gold-plated UAW health benefits for retirees and active workers added $1,200 to the cost of each vehicle that GM produced in 2007."

Add in the 10% price that the UAW claims for labor alone ($3,000 on a $30,000 vehicle), and we're at $4,200 right there. And we haven't added in the costs of retirement plans, jobs banks, or GM bailouts (we spent $15 billion on GM, which sells 2.5 million cars a year - that's $1,000 per year for 6 years).

Yea, it's probably close to $7,000 for the labor, benefits, and UAW bailout that we spent for each car rolling out of the Big Three...

Of course, it's interesting to note that when you Google "union labor costs in car price" one of the first links is from DU and spouts the same line you do. Do you spend much time collecting your facts over at DU?

59 posted on 10/09/2011 3:47:01 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: FromTheSidelines

“Free trade” is the one very significant issue, our side seems to have bought into the wrong side of, lock stock and barrel.

But it’s not Republican individuals who are keeping us on the ever more unstable “free trade” train hurdling down the mountain.

It is globalist RINOS.

Just remember, the issue was enough to propel Donald Trump to the top of the GOP polls in just two days.


60 posted on 10/09/2011 3:50:23 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: FromTheSidelines
That’s what a call for increased tariffs fundamentally are - increasing the taxes paid by US consumers in an attempt to spur domestic prosperity.

Well well you finally got to the point. An across the board tariff of about 10% would be all that is needed to level the playing field. 10% is the comparative advantage in using dirt cheap labor from Asia. I guess if there were huge savings in using communist saves to make everything maybe it would be understandable; the selling out of your country. But we are talking pennies on the dollar, our captains of industry are cheap stateless whores.

61 posted on 10/09/2011 3:54:58 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines

WHy don’t you do research instead of posting what you feel will bolster your argument, like Bob Beckel does on the FOX 5@5.


62 posted on 10/09/2011 3:58:13 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines

“Oh, it’s very simple! However, the cause isn’t because the other nations got stronger, it’s because we got weaker. “

Exactly, because we gave it away.

“How do you propose we’ll tax ourselves into prosperity?”

wow you’re a good one. where the heck does anything I post imply I support higher taxes?? Please show me. Where do I mention tariffs?

How about not subsidizing the transfer of jobs overseas? how about reducing regulation? how about reducing taxes?


63 posted on 10/09/2011 4:01:38 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Maybe you could comprehend this statement?

“Its working so well that we don’t have a steel industry”


64 posted on 10/09/2011 4:01:51 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: central_va

I posted facts - you didn’t.

So can you tell me how taxing our own consumers will make America successful again?

Can ANY of you protectionists tell me how we’re going to tax ourselves into prosperity?


65 posted on 10/09/2011 4:02:31 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: FromTheSidelines

Tariffs do not tax us.

Tariffs tax our competition.


66 posted on 10/09/2011 4:03:38 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Well do we? You’re the one claiming our steel industry is strong. I’m the one pointing out California went to China to get a bridge built.


67 posted on 10/09/2011 4:04:05 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

Post 32 - you’re obviously opposed to free trade, which pretty much means tariffs.

So are you opposed to tariffs?


68 posted on 10/09/2011 4:05:26 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Free Traitors have had a good 20 year run, made a lot of blood money and ruined our industrial base. It is time for the Free Traitor slime balls to leave the stage and go crawl under a rock.


69 posted on 10/09/2011 4:06:03 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
Tariffs do not tax us. Tariffs tax our competition.

Seriously? Tariff: A tariff may be either tax on imports or exports (trade tariff)

It's a tax on IMPORTS. Who pays the tax? The importer - the US consumer. You're woefully ignorant if you believe otherwise.

When a product from Brazil is imported into the US, who collects the tariff? Who pays that tariff?

You really need to educate yourself...

70 posted on 10/09/2011 4:08:06 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: FromTheSidelines
Yea, it's probably close to $7,000 for the labor, benefits, and UAW bailout that we spent for each car rolling out of the Big Three...

Prove it.


71 posted on 10/09/2011 4:08:08 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines

“you’re obviously opposed to free trade, which pretty much means tariffs.”

nonsense


72 posted on 10/09/2011 4:09:17 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: FromTheSidelines

An import tariff is a fairly easy consumption tax to avoid, just stay out of ChinaMart™. LOL!


73 posted on 10/09/2011 4:09:58 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines

There is no tariff of any amount, on goods made in America, grown in America, or drilled out of the ground in the United States of America.

Not one penny.

Simple solution.

Buy American. No tax.


74 posted on 10/09/2011 4:10:22 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: central_va; Toddsterpatriot

We have free trade? Really? You think what we have now is free trade? Doesn’t really surprise me, given that some of you protectionists think a tariff isn’t a tax on the consumer...

So, how do we have free trade when we have tariffs on almost everything we import, we have quotas and set-asides for importing products, and we restrict import and export of some products? How is that free trade?


75 posted on 10/09/2011 4:11:34 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: driftdiver
Well do we?

You claimed we don't.

You’re the one claiming our steel industry is strong.

Perhaps you'd share the post?

I’m the one pointing out California went to China to get a bridge built.

That's awful. Did they save money?

76 posted on 10/09/2011 4:14:23 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

When money goes overseas there are many factors to consider. Only a percentage of that money ever comes back in any form.

The money is removed from the economy. It doesn’t get spent to pay wages, buy food, pay mortgages, or even pay taxes.

Its gone. Its wealth redistribution.


77 posted on 10/09/2011 4:17:56 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: central_va

How much steel do we use each year to build tanks and ships?


78 posted on 10/09/2011 4:18:09 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: FromTheSidelines
The U.S. Constitution of 1789 gave the federal government authority to tax, stating that Congress has the power to "... lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." Tariffs between states is prohibited by the U.S. Constitution and all domestically made products can be imported or shipped to another state tax free.

Responding to an urgent need for revenue following the American Revolutionary War, after passage of the U.S. Constitution the First United States Congress passed, and President George Washington, signed the Tariff Act of July 4, 1789, which authorized the collection of duties on imported goods. Four weeks later, on July 31, the fifth act of Congress established the United States Customs Service and its ports of entry where customs duties (also called tariffs or Ad Valorem taxes) were to be paid. Tariffs were originally recommended in the U.S. by the first Treasury Secretary, Alexander Hamilton, in 1789 to tax foreign imports to provide the Federal Government with money to pay its operating expenses and Federal debts and the debts the states had accumulated during the American Revolutionary War.

79 posted on 10/09/2011 4:19:35 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

How much steel we use isn’t really the important point.

How much steel we will *need* in an emergency, is the real measure.

That’s hard to quantify, but to a couple of signficant digits, the answer is “a lot”.


80 posted on 10/09/2011 4:21:50 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: driftdiver
Only a percentage of that money ever comes back in any form.

They put it under their pillow?

The money is removed from the economy.

They eat it? Burn it?

It doesn't get spent to pay wages, buy food, pay mortgages, or even pay taxes.

They take our money in exchange for their goods and don't use it for anything? How is that bad for us?

Its wealth redistribution.

If I buy some German beer for my dollars, I've exchanged value for value.

Only when the government takes my money and gives it to another is it wealth redistribution.

81 posted on 10/09/2011 4:22:07 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

I guess Free Traitors have eliminated all wars. Tell me could China out produce us in a real war? I think so. I guess a lot of guys would have to die while we REBUILT our factories in an emergency.


82 posted on 10/09/2011 4:22:19 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
How much steel we will *need* in an emergency, is the real measure.

Great! How much do we make now?

That’s hard to quantify, but to a couple of signficant digits, the answer is “a lot”.

That's the kind of answer I'd expect from a liberal. Or someone who dropped out of math class.

83 posted on 10/09/2011 4:23:51 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: central_va
I guess Free Traitors have eliminated all wars.

Strawman much?

84 posted on 10/09/2011 4:25:36 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Whatever.


85 posted on 10/09/2011 4:27:24 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: central_va

If you couldn’t follow the link and information before, I can’t help you...


86 posted on 10/09/2011 4:27:36 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: driftdiver

My mistake then, you’re pro-free-trade/no tariffs?


87 posted on 10/09/2011 4:28:37 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

But you want to put tariffs (taxes) on imported goods, right?


88 posted on 10/09/2011 4:28:43 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
Name one product in the western world that can't be produced in the third world by peasants? If you take the pro Free trade argument to its ultimate conclusion, everyone in the developed world should commit suicide. But you see that won't happen. This country is dangerously close to going full scale collectivist, in part due to free trade.

I usually find myself in disagreement with Karl but on this one he is right.

the Protective system in these days is conservative, while the Free Trade system works destructively. It breaks up old nationalities and carries antagonism of proletariat and bourgeoisie to the uttermost point. In a word, the Free Trade system hastens the Social Revolution. In this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, I am in favor of Free Trade.

                  -- Karl Marx

89 posted on 10/09/2011 4:29:17 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
WTO helping China Loot Caterpillar
americanthinker.com ^ | 10/04/2010 | Howard Richman & Raymond Richman

"Why can’t Caterpillar make a profit exporting mini-excavators to China? The answer is simple: China has a 30% tariff on all excavators. In fact it has a similar high tariff on just about every vehicle, be it a Ford car, a GMC truck, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, or a giant mining machine made by Bucyrus International."

The United States Constitution, Article I, Section 8:
“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;...To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations,...”

The Tariff Act of 1789 was the first national source of revenue for the newly formed United States.

90 posted on 10/09/2011 4:30:36 PM PDT by familyop ("I'm going to cut open his head and eat his brain." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: central_va

OK, let’s walk this down one step at a time.

We both agree that Congress has the power to lay and collect taxes (tariffs) on imports. I don’t dispute that, and I don’t dispute the US was funded predominantly by such taxes until the passage of the 16th Amendment.

Now, here we are today. Do we need to raise taxes on imported goods?


91 posted on 10/09/2011 4:30:58 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: FromTheSidelines
But you want to put tariffs (taxes) on imported goods, right?

You betcha.

Unlike some on this board. I'd start at 100%.
92 posted on 10/09/2011 4:30:58 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot

Over 150,000 Chinese businesses and all Chinese banks are state-owned.


93 posted on 10/09/2011 4:31:39 PM PDT by familyop ("I'm going to cut open his head and eat his brain." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: Cringing Negativism Network

Great! A 100% tariff on all imported goods is your solution. So you’re of the opinion we can tax ourselves into prosperity.

I don’t think anything else needs to be said.


94 posted on 10/09/2011 4:33:19 PM PDT by FromTheSidelines ("everything that deceives, also enchants" - Plato)
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To: FromTheSidelines
From your link. It looks like you Free Traitors need a new bogey man to justify selling out your fellow Americans.

"Consider the manufacturing industry. Most Americans take it as fact that manufacturing jobs have decreased over the past 30 years. However, that is not fully accurate. Chart 1 shows manufacturing employment for union and non-union workers. Unionized manufacturing jobs fell by 75 percent between 1977 and 2008. Non-union manufacturing employment increased by 6 percent over that time. In the aggregate, only unionized manufacturing jobs have disappeared from the economy. As a result, collective bargaining coverage fell from 38 percent of manufacturing workers to 12 percent over those years."

95 posted on 10/09/2011 4:34:24 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines

‘K then.

Bye!

If you want to continue the discussion, come on back.


96 posted on 10/09/2011 4:34:26 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Santorum: Plan B to a certain Grizzly.)
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To: Toddsterpatriot
The USA is forth in steel production behind China, Japan and the EU. China produces 8 times the steel we do.
97 posted on 10/09/2011 4:37:52 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: FromTheSidelines
Now, here we are today. Do we need to raise taxes on imported goods?

Yes, how many times do I have to say yesssssss?

98 posted on 10/09/2011 4:42:14 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: Cringing Negativism Network
Unlike some on this board. I'd start at 100%.

Doubling the price of oil is sure to bring down the unemployment rate.

100 posted on 10/09/2011 4:47:13 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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