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KNOX WARNS OF A ‘CLASH’ WITH JAPAN; MOSCOW’S DEFENDERS PUSH FOE BACK (10/25/41)
Microfilm-New York Times archives, Monterey Public Library | 10/25/41 | Frank L. Kluckhohn, Craig Thompson, Daniel T. Brigham, Lansing Warren, Otto D. Tolischus, more

Posted on 10/25/2011 5:02:24 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: milhist; realtime; worldwarii
Free Republic University, Department of History presents World War II Plus 70 Years: Seminar and Discussion Forum
First session: September 1, 2009. Last date to add: September 2, 2015.
Reading assignment: New York Times articles delivered daily to students on the 70th anniversary of original publication date. (Previously posted articles can be found by searching on keyword “realtime” Or view Homer’s posting history .)
To add this class to or drop it from your schedule notify Admissions and Records (Attn: Homer_J_Simpson) by freepmail. Those on the Realtime +/- 70 Years ping list are automatically enrolled. Course description, prerequisites and tuition information is available at the bottom of Homer’s profile. Also visit our general discussion thread
1 posted on 10/25/2011 5:02:32 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Selections from West Point Atlas for the Second World War
Advance on Moscow – Operations, 26 August-5 December 1941
The Mediterranean Basin
The Far East and the Pacific, 1941 – Major Japanese War Objectives and Planned Opening Attacks
2 posted on 10/25/2011 5:03:23 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
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Winston S. Churchill, The Grand Alliance

3 posted on 10/25/2011 5:04:10 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson
Billboard Top Ten for the Week of October 25, 1941

#1 - “Piano Concerto in B Flat” (“Tonight we Love”) - Freddy Martin, with Jack Fina
#2 - “I Don’t Want to Set the World On Fire”” - Horace Heidt, with Larry Cotton and Donna & Her Don Juans
#3 - “Chattanooga Choo Choo” - Glenn Miller, with Tex Beneke and the Modernaires
#4 – “I Don’t Want to Set the World On Fire” – Tommy Tucker, with Amy Arnell and Voices 3
#5 - “Jim” – Dinah Shore
#6 - “Blue Champagne” – Jimmy Dorsey, with Bob Eberly
#7 – “I Don’t Want to Set the World on Fire” - The Ink Spots
#8 - “Jim” - Jimmy Dorsey, with Bob Eberly and Helen O’Connell
#9 – “This Love of Mine” - Tommy Dorsey, with Frank Sinatra
#10 - “Time Was” – Jimmy Dorsey, with Bob Eberly and Helen O’Connell

4 posted on 10/25/2011 5:05:31 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: r9etb; PzLdr; dfwgator; Paisan; From many - one.; rockinqsranch; GRRRRR; 2banana; henkster; ...
Rift Laid to Tokyo – 2-3
The Day in Washington – 3
Army Tank Program Doubled under New Arms Expansion – 3-4
George VI Reviews American Fliers – 4
The International Situation – 4
Reds Strike Hard – 5
Nazi Gain Steady, Berlin Contends – 5-6
Germans Encounter a New Hazard on the Eastern Front (photo) – 6
Warship Rescues Victor in Air Fight – 6
54 More French Killed by Nazis – 7-8
Tokyo’s Air Defenses Penetrated-in War Game – 8
5 Army Fliers Killed on Coast Peak; 5 of 19 Planes Missing in Flight – 8
Japan Surprised by Call for Diet – 9
Captain and Crew Members of Russian Freighter (photo) – 9
Combat Zones Fixed in Northern France – 9
Jews Listed Fifth in Pro-War Groups (by George Gallup) – 10
OPM Will Expand West Coast Steel – 10
Polish Leader Buried with Blood-Stained Earth – 11
The Texts of the Day’s War Communiques – 12-13
Trials, Executions Mount in Bulgaria – 13
Lehigh Survivors Back Ship Arming – 13
5 posted on 10/25/2011 5:07:16 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://www.onwar.com/chrono/1941/oct41/f25oct41.htm

British battleship heads for Pacific
Saturday, October 25, 1941 www.onwar.com

HMS Prince of WalesFrom Britain... The British battleship Prince of Wales, carrying Admiral Phillips sails for the Far East. The admiral is to take command of the new British Far East Fleet to be created around the Prince of Wales.


6 posted on 10/25/2011 5:12:40 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andrew.etherington/month/thismonth/25.htm

October 25th, 1941

UNITED KINGDOM: HMS Prince of Wales sails the Clyde for the Far East. Admiral Tom Phillips is aboard and will command the newly constituted British Far East Fleet.

London: Churchill condemns German reprisal killings in occupied territories.

USS Wickes (DD-75) is re-commissioned as HMS MONTGOMERY as part of the destroyers for bases deal. (Ron Babuka)

Submarine HMS Seraph launched. (Dave Shirlaw)

GERMANY:

U-117, U-171, U-437 commissioned.

U-90, U-178 launched.

U-471 laid down. (Dave Shirlaw)

MEDITERRANEAN SEA: Whilst running supplies to the garrison at Tobruk, fast minelayer HMS Latona is attacked and bombed by German aircraft North of Bardia at 32 15N 24 14E. The cargo and the ship’s ammunition explode, causing the death of 4 officers, 20 ratings and 7 soldiers, but the remainder are taken off by HMS Hero and Encounter. There are 37 casualties. (Alex Gordon)(108)

CANADA:

Minesweepers ordered in Canada - HMS MMS 197, MMS 198, MMS 199, MMS 200 and MMS 201.

Corvette HMCS La Malbaie (ex-Fort William) launched Sorel, Province of Quebec.

U.S.A.:

AA cruiser USS Juneau launched.

Aircraft carrier USS Hornet commissioned. (Dave Shirlaw)

ATLANTIC OCEAN:

RCAF Eastern Command makes first attack on a U-boat off Newfoundland.

In the mid-Atlantic, U-107 transferred two ill crewmembers to U-125, which then returned to base. (Dave Shirlaw)


7 posted on 10/25/2011 5:15:09 AM PDT by Homer_J_Simpson ("Every nation has the government that it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821))
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

I visited the WW II museum in New Orleans last week. It strikes me as not so much a museum as an elaborate and comprehensive presentation of the war and the various elements. There were few exhibits of stuff but many many displays of text and graphics. There were also numerous movie and TV displays, some long some short. It is a teaching experience to open doors to further study

It is very well done and to start at the beginning and see everything to the end would take perhaps two days. We were there most of the day.

New Orleans is home to the Higgins boat so the big displays included the landing craft prominently and they are restoring a Higgins made PT boat as well. The displays also include some air craft, a Sherman tank, a half track, a jeep and an ambulance.

The “stuff” exhibits are weak when compared to the Naval air museum in Pensacola or the Nimitiz National Museum of the Pacific War museum in Fredicksburg Texas

The museum is still growing and more stuff will be acquired I think. It is worth a day if you are in New Orleans.


8 posted on 10/25/2011 5:25:02 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ..posted from the great river road)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

You realize that some nuts think that “we were warned” means Pearl Harbor is our fault, right?

lol


9 posted on 10/25/2011 6:01:00 AM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Happiness)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

PRINCE OF WALES has to be the unluckiest ship in the Royal Navy. Shot up by BISMARCK, she now heads to the Pacific and the Japanese.

But at least Admiral “Tom Thumb” Phillips may be able to test his theory that battleships are immune to sinking by aircraft.


10 posted on 10/25/2011 6:25:32 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: GeronL

Admiral Kimmel wrote a book many years ago document the breaking of the codes and that the commanders at Pearl Harbor (he and Gen Short) were hung out to dry by Washington. They didn’t believe their Battleships could be sunk by aircraft. They missed the British attack on Taranto.

We knew about the fleet sailing the Fleet at Pearl Harbor was not warned.


11 posted on 10/25/2011 7:31:34 AM PDT by Leto
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To: PzLdr
You are right about "unlucky". I don't have the specific references in front of me, but as I understand it, had Force Z (Prince of Wales, Repulse, and four destroyers) left a few hours earlier, they would have caught a bunch of Japanese transports at anchor at night. Those ships would have been sitting ducks. Indeed, due to Royal Navy night battle training, Force Z would have been the deadliest force in the area at night.

Instead, they got caught in daylight without air cover and were overwhelmed.

12 posted on 10/25/2011 7:33:05 AM PDT by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: PzLdr

isnt prince of wales sunk by japanese carrier carrier aircraft near the indian ocean in a couple months?


13 posted on 10/25/2011 7:42:40 AM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: beebuster2000

She’s sunk, along with HMS REPULSE, by landbased Japanese aircraft on either December 8th, 9th, or 10th [I don’t remember the exact date. The aircraft flew out of Taiwan and Viet Nam.


14 posted on 10/25/2011 7:49:56 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: beebuster2000

They were sunk off the east coast of Malaya. I believe you’re thinking of Nagumo’s raid into the Indian Ocean in 1942, when the Japanese sank HMS HERMES, and raided Sri Lanka.


15 posted on 10/25/2011 7:56:41 AM PDT by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: Leto

Kimmel and Short were not “hung out to dry”.

We did not know that Kido Butai was moving to atttack Hawaii. We just knew they were under radio silence, which happened often. We also knew that Japan was up to something, probably including Malaya and the Philipines.

The disasters at Pearl Harbor and the Philippines had many fathers on the American side.

-Poor handling of intelligence
-Poor communication between Washington and field commanders
-Divided command
-Failure to put forces on a war footing when war became imminent (particularly bad in the Philippines).
-Shortage of proper equipment
-Failure to use equipment properly (Radar)

But it was not a set up. We knew something was up, but failed to act quickly and be prepared for anything. So when the enemy hit an unexpected spot, we got our clock cleaned.

However, only one out of four field commanders did everything properly.

Short failed, had he done his job, his entire air force would not have been wiped out on the ground, lined up in pretty rows to make the job easier.

Kimmel did not fail, but suffered the fate of any Admiral in his situation. Lose your fleet, lose your job. He should have at least had the base on a war footing and not had peacetime shore leave in place.

MacArthur should have been court-martialed for dereliction of duty given his manifest failures in the Philippines.

Only Admiral Hart of the Asiatic Fleet did his job correctly, following plans and keeping his fleet intact until it was simply overwhelmed.


16 posted on 10/25/2011 8:25:17 AM PDT by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: PzLdr

It was the 10th, by aircraft from French Indo-China (Vietnam).


17 posted on 10/25/2011 8:27:35 AM PDT by GreenLanternCorps ("Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Jimmy Carter".)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

18 posted on 10/25/2011 11:40:59 AM PDT by CougarGA7 (Sauron was just trying to get his land back.)
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To: Leto

I assume then that you have read Kimmel’s book “Admiral Kimmel’s Story”? I haven’t bothered to read that particular one yet myself. I think if you keep reading these threads you will see that Pearl had sufficient warning to make the correct decisions, but did not.


19 posted on 10/25/2011 12:20:04 PM PDT by CougarGA7 (Sauron was just trying to get his land back.)
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To: bert

Thanks for the run down on the museum. I had not heard of it but I have visted the other two you list. We will have to check it out sometime.


20 posted on 10/25/2011 12:26:19 PM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: PzLdr

true. thanks


21 posted on 10/25/2011 1:18:56 PM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: GreenLanternCorps

I suggest reading Kimmel’s book.

I read it in Jr High and was suspended from school for bring up the breaking of the Naval codes before the Pearl Harbor attack.

The other things you bring up were factors, but Kimmel and Short should have been kept up to date they were not.


22 posted on 10/25/2011 4:00:59 PM PDT by Leto
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