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Defkalion: “We have Rossi’s formula”
Ny Teknik ^ | Nov 29 2011 | Mats Lewan

Posted on 11/29/2011 10:58:46 PM PST by Kevmo


Defkalion: “We have Rossi’s formula”
Av: Mats Lewan
Publicerad igår, 10:13 4 kommentarer

Tomorrow on Wednesday the Greek company Defkalion will present products similar to Andrea Rossi’s 'E-cat', claiming that the technology is developed in-house. But Defkalion earlier told Ny Teknik that it has 'the formula of Rossi' .


“Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months.”
That is what Alexandros Xanthoulis, representative of Defkalion Green Technology’s owners, told Ny Teknik in a telephone conversation on August 5, 2011 .

“I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy made by the University of Siena. (...) They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did,” he continued .

Xanthoulis contacted Ny Teknik the day after Rossi unilaterally terminated his agreement with Defkalion. Among other things, the agreement gave Defkalion exclusive rights in Greece and the Balkans for production and distribution of the “E-cat” – Rossi’s invention that might produce heat through a hitherto unknown form of nuclear reaction .

At a press conference in June 2011 Defkalion presented sketches on a range of products – “Hyperion” – built around Rossi’s technology, with control and regulation systems, remote monitoring, heat exchangers and other peripherals developed by Defkalion .

When Rossi terminated the agreement in August, he stressed that no knowledge of the core technology had been transferred to Defkalion. The Hyperion products thus seemed to have no future .

During the telephone conversation with Ny Teknik, Xanthoulis expressed considerable uncertainty about Rossi’s intentions. However, he made clear that he was not going to use the knowledge of Rossi’s reactor and that he wanted "fair play" .

He also explained that his researchers had found ways to improve the technology. According to Xanthoulis, Rossi could not run the reaction more than 24 hours, and when Defkalion required a 48 hour test it supposedly led to a conflict with Rossi .

“It’s very simple but they didn’t think about it. (...) We solved the problem. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle”, Xanthoulis told Ny Teknik .

A few days after the phone conversation, Defkalion announced that it continued the project, despite the breach of contract. Defkalion has also continued to offer licenses for the production of Hyperion products to EUR 40.5 million per factory .

Tomorrow on Wednesday November 30th, Defkalion has planned a presentation of its products, and has announced that the the technology will be certified and tested by an independent party .

In contrast to Xanthoulis’ information about Defkalion’s possessing ' the formula of Rossi', the company now states that its technology is developed in-house and that it is not based on Rossi’s technology .

Among other things, Defkalion posted in a forum on its website: “E-cats (or energy catalyzers) are E-cats and Hyperions are Hyperions. We can assure you that they are not the same ‘thing’ with just different names.”
On Ny Teknik's request we received the following comment to the conversation in August:
"So much has changed since August, many minor events and issues have taken place making it hard to tie the story together with a few words of Alex back then. Defkalion is working on exothermic reactions between Nickel and Hydrogen. Our products have completely different technologies (encompassing electronics, engineering, materials) than from Rossi, even [if] we have understood where Rossi has made his mistakes."
Ny Teknik also asked for a comment from Rossi who declined, stating that he would never have anything to do with Defkalion again, and that what the company said or did could only be a matter for his lawyers, in the case that would be necessary .

Since the breach of contract in August, Rossi has continued to work on his technology and has made a number of semi-public demonstrations to some criticism of Defkalion which stated that Rossi used some technology developed by the Greek company .

On October 28 a test of a heating plant with a nominal thermal power of one megawatt, consisting of about one hundred E-cat modules, was performed. The test was made by an anonymous customer, according to Rossi a military organization, which officially approved the plant and then bought it .

Thereafter, the same customer has, still according to Rossi, placed an order for a further twelve similar plants which now supposedly are under construction. And yesterday Rossi announced that a heat plant had been sold to a customer who will let "a qualified public" visit it .

Rossi has said he is now taking pre-orders for a consumer version of the E-cat at 10 kilowatts of thermal power, stating that when he reaches 10,000 pre-orders, the interested parties will be offered to accept or decline to purchase the product for 400 Euros per kilowatt nominal thermal output, which would set the prize for a model of 10 kilowatts to 4,000 Euros .

Many have called for an independent test of the E-cat, but Rossi has rejected this and said that he now only has time for customers. According to Rossi, another reason is avoiding that further details of the invention reach his competitors, as it is not yet patented .

In addition to Defkalion, at least a dozen researchers worldwide are actively working with phenomena related to the concept of cold fusion or Low Energy Nuclear Reactions, LENR. However, no one has so far come close to the output power levels Rossi seems to have reached .

Most notable is perhaps Rossi’s compatriot Prof. Francesco Piantelli who previously conducted research with Rossi’s scientific adviser Prof. Sergio Focardi. Among other researchers often mentioned are Americans Michael McKubre, George Miley, Peter Hagelstein, Brian Ahern and Italian Francesco Celani who attended Rossi’s first public trial in January 2011 .

According to reliable sources to Ny Teknik, there are stakeholders who have tried to make commercial agreements with Rossi, and who are now actively seeking opportunities to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in this area .

The concept of cold fusion has generally been regarded as impossibility by the scientific community since the debate following a press conference on 23 March 1989 when researchers Fleischmann and Pons presented their results .

Despite this the phenomenon has since then been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers .

- - - -
READ MORE: Our complete coverage on Rossi's E-cat can be found here .

FAKTA Excerpt of Ny Teknik’s conversation with Alexandros Xanthoulis August 5
"Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months, but I’m not going to play game behind Rossi. I’m not a cheater. We started together and if he has to be paid, he will. But his problem is scientifically solved by us .

Because we believe that his reactor cannot operate more than 24 hours .

When we requested 48 it was a problem. But my scientists found out the problems. I cannot reveal it right now. But the problem can be fixed by us. It’s very simple but they didn’t think about it. The same way more than a year ago when Rossi had never thought that his invention could create electricity. He had never thought about it until we told him."
(...)
"First of all, the first problem was with 48 hours, that’s for sure. And he had a huge fight with one of my scientists, Mr Hadjichristos, you’ve heard of him most probably, Yiannis, because we were insisting on 48 hours. But we know the problem; we didn’t tell him of course, we know the problem .

I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy (Greek: ‘fasmatoscopy’) made by the university of Siena. It was an equipment made by the University of Siena. It understands everything that’s inside the reactor. So we know the components."
Ny Teknik: Who did that?
"The University of Siena .

They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did. They checked it and we know what’s in the reactor .

So it’s a matter of two or three months that my scientists can reproduce that, but I’m not going to try it. I’m playing a fair game .

We solved the problem. The problems he’s got, we solved them. Because the problem is that he cannot spread the reaction all over the pipe, and all the heating is concentrated in the middle. So we found the solution."
(This quote is slightly adjusted for clarity through advice from Defkalion) .

FAKTA The E-cat
The 'energy catalyzer' is loaded with nickel powder and a number of secret catalysts and is pressurized with hydrogen gas. Excess heat is possibly produced via an unknown nuclear reaction, involving nickel and hydrogen .

Several semipublic tests have been made to demonstrate the release of net energy but no independent tests have yet been done .

On October 28, 2011, a heat plant composed by 107 Ecat modules was tested by an anonymous customer. In a report the customer claimed a released net power of 479 kW in self sustained mode .

- - - -




TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: cmns; coldfusion; ecat; lenr
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http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece

The Cold Fusion Ping List

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles

-------------------------------------------------------------- http://ecatnews.com/?p=1144

Unfortunately, if Rossi did the following:

1) hired a bunch of actors to pretend to be the customer reps,

2) created an elaborate year-long special-effects-derived series of demos,

3) bribed, hypnotised or otherwise fooled Focardi, Levi, Kullander, Essen, Bianchini, Stremmenos

4) arranged for Piantelli, Miley and a host of others to try to fool the world into thinking that cold fusion was real,

5) got NASA, SPAWAR, The Defense Threat Reduction Agency and The Defense Intelligence Agency to say nice things about the field,

6) got Bushnell to make a fool of himself,

7) and convinced his former partners to set up another company called Ampenergo to pretend that they had a contract for The Americas for a substantial sum ----- or that they just did this with no proof because they have worked with Rossi and trust him because he’s such a fine fellow,

8) sold his profitable company to his ex-partners in order to spend that wealth on a multi-million dollar scam; ----- certain that once he got all the above ducks in a row he would pretend to sell the first device ----- and then reel in the true target of his dastardly plan

9) and convinced a bunch of Greek crooks to set up a dummy company called Defkalion ----- to pretend to fight with him over the non-existent eCat, ----- to perpetuate the illusion and spin it off into a competing mirror-scam

[the second (this time genuine) buyer of a 1MW plant that will net him $2 million dollars ----- until they want their money back or sucker a $100 million dollar deal under the table ----- because he has experience in pulling the wool over all these idiotic eyes ----- and knows that they will just take his word for it ----- and not want to test if his 1MW plant can heat a small village without truckloads of coal or oil or a big fat electric cable coming into the container from beneath the floor (no you can’t lift the carpet!) ]

10) and that, in order to pull this off, Rossi had to risk discovery by interviewing all the people he subsequently fooled so that he could only invite the gullible Professors and not the brilliant anonymous posters on the Internet who surely would have found him out

then, yes, all bets are off and I’m with the guys who think that Rossi is an idiot and they are all geniuses.

1 posted on 11/29/2011 10:58:52 PM PST by Kevmo
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To: dangerdoc; citizen; Lancey Howard; Liberty1970; Red Badger; Wonder Warthog; PA Engineer; ...

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3353181.ece

The Cold Fusion Ping List

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/coldfusion/index?tab=articles


2 posted on 11/29/2011 10:59:50 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo

Dang, Kevmo. Just dang! This is falling to the category of a soap opera.


3 posted on 11/29/2011 11:04:42 PM PST by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS U.S.A. PRESIDENT)
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To: SatinDoll

This is why I don’t read science fiction. It’s tough enough to keep up with science as it is.


4 posted on 11/29/2011 11:14:59 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: SatinDoll

Defkalion = Rossi.

It is all just a diversion to keep peoples eye off the ball.

It’s Rossi’s MO.


5 posted on 11/29/2011 11:26:03 PM PST by DB
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To: All; y'all; et al

Has Defkalion’s President Confirmed the Accusations of Rossi and Stremmenos?

http://pesn.com/2011/11/29/9601966_Defkalion_President_Confirms_Accusations_of_Rossi_and_Stremmenos/

The Swedish magazine NyTeknik has shared details of a phone conversation with the president of Defkalion, Alexandros Xanthoulis. If the transcription of his statements is accurate, they seem to confirm Andrea Rossi’s statement that the Greek company was never “given” the information to do so but extracted it covertly.

Alexandros Xanthoulis

Full Disclosure:
PES Network has a business relationship with Andrea Rossi.

By Hank Mills
Pure Energy Systems News

Earlier in this year, Defkalion was making big claims about their technology, and the progress they have made. According to representatives of their company posting on their forum, they had tested up to one thousand reactor cores at a time, and had never produced an output less than nineteen times the input. In fact, they claimed to have not just prototypes, but products ready for the market place. You can read many of these bold statements in an article we posted last August: “An E-Cat Full of Lies - Rossi or Defkalion?” For their claims to be true, Defkalion would require one particular thing beyond anything else - working reactor cores that were capable of producing robust Ni-H cold fusion (LENR) nuclear reactions.

Stunningly, it now seems that when their bold statements were being made, they may not have legitimately held the proprietary and confidential information — such as the E-Cat’s secret catalyst(s) — needed to build working Ni-H reactor cores. This new evidence that indicates they may have been less than truthful in their claims comes from a conversation Mats Lewan of NyTeknik had with the President of Defkalion, Alexandros Xanthoulis, on August 5th, 2011, as reported today by NyTeknik. If the transcription of the phone call is accurate and his statements represent the truth of the situation, then their grandiose claims (made before they talked with NyTeknik) could have been inaccurate at best, or at worst, total lies. Also, it seems that Defkalion may be busy reverse engineering Andrea Rossi’s technology, without his permission or authorization.

Xanthoulis stated in the phone call on August 5 that they know Rossi’s formula, due to having spectroscopy performed at the University of Sienna. He claims that his scientists have found a way to make it, and they will need three months to do so — although they will not try it, because they want to “play fair.” The call also seems to indicate that such tests were performed clandestinely. According to Xanthoulis the information was gathered, “without him [Rossi] understanding what they did.”

Here are a few portions from the phone call. To read the entire transcript, please visit NyTeknik.

“Let’s say I have the formula of Rossi, but I’m not saying it officially. My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months, but I’m not going to play game behind Rossi. I’m not a cheater. We started together and if he has to be paid, he will.”

“I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy (Greek: ‘fasmatoscopy’) made by the university of Siena. It was an equipment made by the University of Siena. It understands everything that’s inside the reactor. So we know the components.”

“The University of Siena. They tried his reactor without him understanding what they did. They checked it and we know what’s in the reactor. So it’s a matter of two or three months that my scientists can reproduce that, but I’m not going to try it. I’m playing a fair game.”

His statements seem to confirm those made by Rossi, that Leonardo Corporation had never given Defkalion any of the proprietary information needed to build working reactor cores. Rossi also stated that Defkalion had never built a working Ni-H system, and they had “nothing.” To this day, he has stood by those statements. Very recently, he stated that Defkalion had nothing but a “mock-up” that lacked the critical component, a working reactor core.

So what does the information gathered from this phone call really mean? If Defkalion is willing to stand by the words of its President, I think it tells us many things. However, none of which are encouraging when it comes to Defkalion’s credibility as an honest and strait forward company.

First, it indicates the clear possibility that during the time period in which Defkalion’s representatives were making claims of testing up to a thousand reactor cores at a time, they did not have the information needed to build a single working reactor core. If they did not have actual working reactor cores when those statements were being made, they have not just told a few “little white lies”, but giant whoppers — misleading the entire world about their progress (including potential investors). Such lies — if confirmed to be lies — are totally and completely unacceptable.

Secondly, the statements made by the president of Defkalion make it seem like the company may be reverse engineering Rossi’s technology, without his permission. At a minimum, they allowed a test to be performed that enabled them to discover what makes Andrea Rossi’s technology work. Basically, they gained access to the confidential information about how to make an Ni-H reactor produce meaningful amounts of power, before he was ready to share such information with them. Although Xanthoulis claims he will not develop reactors based on this intel gathered, I wonder if everyone at Defkalion holds the same sentiment, and if his position is the same today as it was at the time his statement was made.

Thirdly, it tells us that Defkalion has allowed testing at the University of Siena. This is where one of Andrea Rossi’s competitors, Francesco Piantelli, has performed much of his research into nickel-hydrogen cold fusion. Unlike Rossi’s E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer), Piantelli has never been able to make his systems produce practical amounts of output, as far as we know. Instead of many kilowatts of power being produced, Piantelli has only been able to produce tens, or at most, a hundred watts of output. However, if he was involved with Defkalion’s testing of the E-Cat at the University of Siena, he may now have access to Rossi’s catalyst and other confidential information.

It seems obvious now, that Andrea Rossi should have never gotten involved with Defkalion in the first place. Unless Defkalion is willing to step in and provide confirmation that before they had discovered Rossi’s “secret sauce” they had another formula that could be used to produce working reactor cores, I think we can safely assume they have misled the world about their progress. It also seems that Defkalion is willing to allow testing to take place behind Rossi’s back, that could reveal confidential information. In fact, they allowed such research to take place at the University of Siena, where one of Rossi’s competitors performs research. In my opinion, the revelations gathered from the phone call with the president of Defkalion is very, very disturbing to say the least.

Another point that should be mentioned is that the statements of the president of Defkalion also fit with those from Christos Stremmenos, who has issued a public statement, that can be found, in a story we published on October 12. His statement should also be taken seriously, because he is a member of the board of directors of Defkalion. In the letter, Stremmenos states that Defkalion was never given the proprietary information to build working reactor cores, and has never built a working reactor. He accuses them of megalomania and telling lies.

With three of the most important individuals involved in this saga (the inventor of the E-Cat, the president of Defkalion, and the board member responsible for their company ever starting up in the first place) admitting that Rossi never released the proprietary information, it seems we have a very good reason to be concerned, and suspicious.

According to NyTeknik,

Tomorrow on Wednesday November 30th, Defkalion has planned a presentation of its products, and has announced that the the technology will be certified and tested by an independent party.

In contrast to Xanthoulis’ information about Defkalion’s possessing ‘ the formula of Rossi’, the company now states that its technology is developed in-house and that it is not based on Rossi’s technology.

Among other things, Defkalion posted in a forum on its website: “E-cats (or energy catalyzers) are E-cats and Hyperions are Hyperions. We can assure you that they are not the same ‘thing’ with just different names.”

My sincere hope is that Defkalion will come forward and clarify all of this, and can present an explanation (with evidence) that shows they have been telling the truth all along, that they really did have working reactor cores before ever being given the information to build a single one by Rossi, and that they have not been developing Rossi’s technology without his permission. To be specific, they need to provide evidence of a working Ni-H reactor core that predates the statement made by their president to NyTeknik. Regardless of the fact Rossi claims he has no intention of ever working with them again, I hate to think that a company of such seemingly credible, well respected individuals could have been feeding the world a long string of lies. I would tremendously prefer the reality to be that they have been telling the honest truth from the start, but their need for secrecy has simply obscured everything, and confused everyone.

Meanwhile, Rossi is moving forward and is making additional sales of his one megawatt E-Cat plants.


6 posted on 11/29/2011 11:28:47 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: DB

I was going to say that Defkalion having Rossi’s formula means they know how to run a scam but if they’re one and the same this is just another play of the original scam. LOL


7 posted on 11/29/2011 11:30:48 PM PST by saganite (What happens to taglines? Is there a termination date?)
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To: Kevmo

Meanwhile, Rossi is moving forward and is making additional sales of his one megawatt E-Cat plants.

...........

I don’t think signing a non-disclosure agreement is going to be a problem, nobody knows what it is anyway.


8 posted on 11/29/2011 11:39:30 PM PST by Razzz42
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To: Kevmo

Until someone proves to me otherwise, I am operating on the assumption that Defkalion is part of Rossi’s scam.


9 posted on 11/30/2011 3:15:53 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Kevmo

Until someone proves to me otherwise, I am operating on the assumption that Defkalion is part of Rossi’s scam.


10 posted on 11/30/2011 3:16:05 AM PST by dinodino
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To: SatinDoll

I like a little romance in my soap operas, and maybe a whiff of violins.


11 posted on 11/30/2011 3:19:15 AM PST by Mycroft Holmes (Returned for regrooving...)
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To: Kevmo

Reasons to doubt Rossi

And, the biggest reason to doubt Rossi:

12 posted on 11/30/2011 3:47:13 AM PST by Johnny B.
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Self ping


13 posted on 11/30/2011 4:40:44 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: dinodino
Until someone proves to me otherwise, I am operating on the assumption that Defkalion is part of Rossi’s scam.

Until someone proves to me otherwise, I am operating on the assumption that you are having an affair with Herman Cain.

See how lousy that sort of logic is? It's one thing to muse about a possibility, another to take a wild guess with no evidence to support it and declare it a fact.

14 posted on 11/30/2011 5:27:17 AM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Liberty1970; dinodino
Until someone proves to me otherwise, I am operating on the assumption that you are having an affair with Herman Cain.

LOL! Hey dinodino, is it true that once you go black, you never go back?

Rossi has less credibility than any of Cain's accusers, and they don't have any.
15 posted on 11/30/2011 5:33:49 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: Liberty1970; ZX12R

My position is eminently logical. If you have followed posts on the other Rossi threads, you know that Andrea Rossi has created a web of apparent shell companies. Ampenergo, which is supposedly a customer, is located at the same place as one of Rossi’s companies. Rossi’s company in Miami is located in a fifth-floor apartment. These are all indisputable facts! Based on these facts, I presume that Defkalion is yet another corporate entity created or controlled by Rossi and his associates.

Your suspension of disbelief is what’s illogical. Your position is unfortunately the one which is unsupported by fact!


16 posted on 11/30/2011 6:31:59 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Kevmo

I have his formula, too.............

17 posted on 11/30/2011 6:41:07 AM PST by Red Badger (Every child should have a meadow to play in..............)
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To: dinodino
Your suspension of disbelief is what’s illogical. Your position is unfortunately the one which is unsupported by fact!

My position is "I don't know" which is the only epistemologically valid conclusion at this point. While I appreciate the position of skeptics, its emminently silly to say the claims about the Ecat are "unsupported." Inadequate for proof or confidence, yes, but not without support.

My position is eminently logical.

You position is plausible, not logical. Many ideas are perfectly plausible (that is, the evidence can be interpreted consistently with them), but turn out to be false. The idea that you are having an affair with Herman Cain is also plausible in this same sense. Does that make it "logical" for me to declare it as fact?

If you have followed posts on the other Rossi threads, you know that Andrea Rossi has created a web of apparent shell companies. Ampenergo, which is supposedly a customer, is located at the same place as one of Rossi’s companies. Rossi’s company in Miami is located in a fifth-floor apartment. These are all indisputable facts! Based on these facts, I presume that Defkalion is yet another corporate entity created or controlled by Rossi and his associates.

By acknowledging you aren't sure with the terms in bold-face, you admit you don't know, only assume. Yet you morph from "apparent" to declaring "indisputable facts" a few sentences later. This transformation is achieved by willful faith, not logical argument. You are a 'true believer' in the same sense as the Ecat groupies, just in the opposite direction. I reject such faith-based conclusions.

18 posted on 11/30/2011 6:46:58 AM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Liberty1970; ZX12R

Why did you boldface “supposedly” and “apparent?” I said Ampenergo is “supposedly” a customer, because that’s what Rossi claims. I said, “apparent” shell companies, because it is plainly apparent upon inspection that these are not arm’s length, legitimate firms.

You are reading something into these words that isn’t there. My words are intended for plain reading. In no way did I suggest that I am not sure about these things—quite the contrary! If you doubt these things yourself, then you should look at the facts.

Your suggestion that I am having an affair with Herman Cain is implausible. There is no evidence that I have ever even met Herman Cain. However, my assertion that Defkalion is a related shell company is quite likely, given the UNDENIABLE FACT that Rossi is already using several such companies.

I’m very sorry to burst your little Rossi fantasy world bubble, but you really need to open your eyes.


19 posted on 11/30/2011 6:52:02 AM PST by dinodino
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To: Kevmo
This is why I don’t read science fiction. It’s tough enough to keep up with science as it is.

And when you're not keeping up with science, you're spending most of your time promoting Rossi's scam.

20 posted on 11/30/2011 6:57:52 AM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: SatinDoll
Dang, Kevmo. Just dang! This is falling to the category of a soap opera.

As the Scam Turns.

The Ecats of Our Lives.

All My Ecats.

General Ecats

21 posted on 11/30/2011 7:00:16 AM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: dinodino
I’m very sorry to burst your little Rossi fantasy world bubble, but you really need to open your eyes.

Where did you ever see me say/write I believe in Rossi's Ecat? My lack of shared certitude in your faith does not mean I have certitude in the opposite direction.

I'm just irritated at the poor logic frequently put forth by many detractors. If Rossi's Ecat turns out a scam, one tragedy is that many people will declare themselves vindicated, despite months of poor logic and lousy arguments that will turn out to have been unrelated to the truth when it comes out.

22 posted on 11/30/2011 7:04:24 AM PST by Liberty1970 (Skepticism and Close-mindedness are two very different things.)
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To: Liberty1970
If Rossi's Ecat turns out a scam, one tragedy is that many people will declare themselves vindicated, despite months of poor logic and lousy arguments

Unlike the geometric logic of Kevmo and Captain Queeg.

23 posted on 11/30/2011 7:14:45 AM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Kevmo

Continuing to go along with this as a thought experiment - I wonder what safety standards would apply to an electrically energized, nuclear powered water heating device? The market will be near nil unless manufacturers can affix a UL/CSA/CE mark. Any installation by an end user would likely void their site liability or homeowners insurance policy.

Has anyone done more than pay lip service to this issue? Defkalion says it will be certified by an independent lab. As one who has dealt with electrical, fire safety and food service equipment certification, I can tell you this won’t be trivial. Just another real world fly for the ointment...


24 posted on 11/30/2011 7:15:22 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: Jack of all Trades
I wonder what safety standards would apply to an electrically energized, nuclear powered water heating device?

Dr Ray Stantz: You know, it just occurred to me that we really haven't had a successful test of this equipment.
Dr. Egon Spengler: I blame myself.
Dr. Peter Venkman: So do I.
Dr Ray Stantz: Well, no sense in worrying about it now.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why worry? Each one of us is carrying an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on his back.

25 posted on 11/30/2011 8:05:13 AM PST by justlurking (The only remedy for a bad guy with a gun is a good WOMAN (Sgt. Kimberly Munley) with a gun)
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To: justlurking

Just be careful not to cross the streams...


26 posted on 11/30/2011 8:11:25 AM PST by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: dinodino

Then go and prove that Defkalion is just another shell company. Expose the scam once and for all.

The golden ring lies before you.


27 posted on 11/30/2011 9:19:35 AM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: Free Vulcan

I’m sorry, but I don’t read Greek, and I’m unfamiliar with Greek corporate law. I am familiar with US corporate law and with researching companies here. I have to rely on someone else to provide evidence proving that Defkalion is unrelated to Rossi. Until that evidence appears, I will assume that it is the same as every other “customer” and “partner” of Rossi’s to date: a related entity.


28 posted on 11/30/2011 10:23:51 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino

I assume nothing as I have no proof, and don’t plan to make definitive statements as if they are truth.


29 posted on 11/30/2011 10:26:37 AM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: Free Vulcan

You don’t have any proof about the true nature of Defkalion, but you DO have truth about Rossi’s other “customers” and “partners.” If the latter are shell companies related to Rossi, why wouldn’t the former be?


30 posted on 11/30/2011 10:27:59 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino

Because no one has established a definite link. Until they do, what I read from them is they were able to overcome some of the problems Rossi couldn’t and have made the tech more viable. That is within the realm of possibility, and a simpler explanation than a scam.

Not that I’m ruling out a scam on Defkalion’s part. Just not ruling it in yet either, and also not ruling in that they are in on it with Rossi.


31 posted on 11/30/2011 10:54:06 AM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: Free Vulcan

Actually, “scam” is the simplest possible explanation, especially when the man in question is Rossi, a convicted scammer.


32 posted on 11/30/2011 11:45:11 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino

I was not aware he was convicted as a scammer, but was convicted for breaking a law that was passed after he was already in business that made his product illegal ex-post facto.


33 posted on 11/30/2011 11:54:04 AM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: Moonman62

Like Hydrogen through an E-cat
so are the days of our lives...


34 posted on 11/30/2011 11:58:03 AM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68

LOL. I hope you don’t mind if I use that here on FR.


35 posted on 11/30/2011 12:16:19 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Free Vulcan
I was not aware he was convicted as a scammer, but was convicted for breaking a law that was passed after he was already in business that made his product illegal ex-post facto.
That's Rossi's version of events. The facts are considerably more damning. He was also convicted of money laundering, tax evasion and racketeering related to Petrol Dragon, as well as convicted of fraud and tax evasion on the totally unrelated "gold shipment" scam.

I've collected a large number of references you might want to check out before you reach any conclusions about Rossi's credibility. The LINK is just a few posts above this one.

36 posted on 11/30/2011 1:09:14 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: dinodino
dinodino said: Actually, “scam” is the simplest possible explanation ..."

I think that the involvement of Defkalion is really quite clever. They will no doubt be able to shrug off any customer complaints based on unexpected trouble in copying Rossi's design. This could well insulate them from many legal traps.

I am amused that at practically the same time that Defkalion claims "My scientists found a way to make it. They need three months", they have also released a multi-page specification which calls out "10mWh" for "Controls and safety/operational electronics".

We are to believe that Defkalion is as yet uncertain of exactly how to make the working mechanism, but they are certain that it will take "10mwh" to power the controls.

37 posted on 11/30/2011 3:15:21 PM PST by William Tell
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To: William Tell
I think that the involvement of Defkalion is really quite clever.
If you assume that there are no working devices, I could see this playing out as follows:

Rossi and Defkalion are secretly working together. They are each collecting money from investors who must agree to strict non-disclosure contracts, so they can't blab and ruin the scam.

Meanwhile, Rossi and Defkalion start suing each other over various matters. They then use the lawsuits as an excuse to not actually deliver any devices.

They keep collecting investor's money and keep up the lawsuits as long as practical, then they shut down their operation and fade into the woodwork.

The investors believe that all their money was "wasted" on the lawsuits and wander off to find another scheme in which to invest.

The secret to a successful scam is to take the victim's money without letting the victim even know that they've been scammed.

38 posted on 11/30/2011 3:28:07 PM PST by Johnny B.
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To: Johnny B.
Johnny B. said: "The secret to a successful scam is to take the victim's money without letting the victim even know that they've been scammed."

Yes. And on top of that, the victim won't even be certain who lost their money. Defkalion will claim that it had rights to Rossi's invention and were unsuccessful at stealing it. Rossi will claim that his results were encouraging but that for reasons not understood he can no longer demonstrate the effect. I'm sure that he will be very dedicated in trying to reproduce his early "successes".

39 posted on 11/30/2011 4:06:34 PM PST by William Tell
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To: Jack of all Trades

Good points.

But the upside is tremendous once you acknowledge the reality of commercially available LENR. You start in industrial before you go to homeowners, just like was done for so many products preceding it.

Disruptive technology makes waves even among non-technology industries. For instance, let’s say you’re the first homeowner insurance company to allow ecats — that could give you an edge over your competition.


40 posted on 11/30/2011 10:32:03 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Moonman62

This will be my standard post to moonboy that says you’re not worth trying to have reasonable discussion, also says “buzz off” & doesn’t leave crickets. But if it offends you to the point that you get it removed like my prior innocuous citation then I’ll have to come up with some other ‘ignore button’ post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62

This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.

55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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41 posted on 11/30/2011 10:37:36 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: dinodino

Until someone proves to me otherwise, I will operate on the assumption that you are a member of the mob; after all, there was some discussion on that right here on FR.


42 posted on 11/30/2011 10:39:17 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Liberty1970

If Rossi’s Ecat turns out a scam, one tragedy is that many people will declare themselves vindicated, despite months of poor logic and lousy arguments that will turn out to have been unrelated to the truth when it comes out.
***Yup. Worth repeating & saving for later.


43 posted on 11/30/2011 10:44:28 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Free Vulcan

2011/11/25

http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex- href=”mailto:l@eskimo.com”>l@eskimo.com/msg56973.html

For example, one of the charges they sent him to jail for was defrauding the stockholders. He himself was the only stockholder, so this was Kafkaesque. Someone in the Italian justice system had it in for him. — Jed Rothwell


44 posted on 11/30/2011 10:50:38 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo
Disruptive technology makes waves even among non-technology industries.

When Rossi is arrested -- again -- the reputation of cold fusion is going to be worse than it already is.

45 posted on 11/30/2011 11:09:42 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Johnny B.

Well taking things with a grain of salt due to Europe’s byzantine regulatory system and lack of legal protections that we have here, I’ll admit Rossi’s past is checkered at least on it’s face.

This is why I’ve never jumped on board and am content to sit back and watch. There are several I’ve read outside of Rossi’s circle that says LENR tech in general might be possible, so I’m hoping that even if Rossi’s is not someone else will develop the ball.


46 posted on 11/30/2011 11:13:10 PM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: Moonman62

This will be my standard post to moonboy that says you’re not worth trying to have reasonable discussion, also says “buzz off” & doesn’t leave crickets. But if it offends you to the point that you get it removed like my prior innocuous citation then I’ll have to come up with some other ‘ignore button’ post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62

This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.

55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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47 posted on 11/30/2011 11:16:12 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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To: Kevmo

This is why I’m skeptical of even the skeptics. You can make anyone look like a crook with the bureaucracies some of these countries have, European ones in particular. If LENR is feasible it will bear itself out, if not with Rossi then someone else.


48 posted on 11/30/2011 11:17:07 PM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: Kevmo
If Rossi’s Ecat turns out a scam, one tragedy is that many people will declare themselves vindicated, despite months of poor logic and lousy arguments that will turn out to have been unrelated to the truth when it comes out.

***Yup. Worth repeating & saving for later.

Don't tell me you think the ecat may turn out to be a scam. You even use a Rossi quote for your tag line.

49 posted on 11/30/2011 11:23:20 PM PST by Moonman62 (The US has become a government with a country, rather than a country with a government.)
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To: Moonman62

This will be my standard post to moonboy that says you’re not worth trying to have reasonable discussion, also says “buzz off” & doesn’t leave crickets. But if it offends you to the point that you get it removed like my prior innocuous citation then I’ll have to come up with some other ‘ignore button’ post.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/backroom/2800058/posts?page=55#55
To: Moonman62

This means I have nothing more to say to you about LENR. Bye.

55 posted on Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:41:07 PM by Kevmo (Caveat lurkor pro se ipso judicatis: Let the lurker decide for himself)
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50 posted on 11/30/2011 11:25:54 PM PST by Kevmo (When a thing is owned by everybody nobody gives value to it. Communism taught us this. ~A. Rossi)
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