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Shroud of Turin can’t be a fake, researchers say: Scientists unable to replicate cloth’s
NY Daily News ^ | Dec. 22, 2011 | Rheana Murray

Posted on 12/23/2011 5:48:31 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY

The Shroud of Turin is very likely not the product of Medieval fakery, say Italian researchers who used modern technology to test the holy cloth’s authenticity.

Over five years of work, the scientists blasted modern linen with ultraviolet light and examined X-rays of the fabric, attempting to replicate the stunning Christ-like image exhibited in the Shroud.

The findings, released in November by Italy’s National Agency for New Technologies, Energy and Sustainable Development, showed they “achieved a very superficial, Shroud-like coloration of linen yarns,” according to a report on msnbc.com.

It fell way short of the characteristics of the real Shroud, however. They concluded therefore that Jesus’s supposed burial cloth could not have been doctored in Medieval times, as has been theorized during past studies, some of which relied on radiocarbon dating of fiber samples.

“We have shown that the most advanced technology available today is unable to replicate all the characteristics of the Shroud image,” lead researcher Paolo Di Lazzaro told msnbc.com in an email.

“As a consequence, we may argue it appears unlikely a forger may have done this image with technologies available in the Middle Ages or earlier.

(Excerpt) Read more at nydailynews.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: medievalfake; medievalforgery; medievalfraud; medievalhoax; searchisourfriend; shroudofturin; sudariumofoviedo; turinshroud; veronicaveil
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1 posted on 12/23/2011 5:48:33 PM PST by Free ThinkerNY
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Looks like Jesus to me. Are there any other photos we can compare it to? :-)


2 posted on 12/23/2011 5:55:37 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Free ThinkerNY

I’m convinced it is the face of Christ, imprinted for us to have one more sign of God’s incarnation among us.

“Jesus therefore said to him, ‘Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.’” (John (RSV) 4:48)

“For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles,” (1Corinthians (RSV) 1:22-23)


3 posted on 12/23/2011 5:56:08 PM PST by Bayard
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To: Free ThinkerNY; thesaleboat; Sick of Lefties; Chainmail; StrongandPround; lilyramone; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


4 posted on 12/23/2011 5:59:21 PM PST by narses
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To: Free ThinkerNY; Alamo-Girl; albee; AnalogReigns; AnAmericanMother; Angelas; AniGrrl; annalex; ...

This seems to be a report on an original article posted before:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2820363/posts

I’d suggest making comments at the original post.


5 posted on 12/23/2011 6:03:48 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

yes, actually there is

It is called the Selennium (or something similar in spelling) and it said to be the cloth used to wipe his face that left an image


6 posted on 12/23/2011 6:04:02 PM PST by Mr. K (Physically unable to profreed <--- oops, see?)
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To: Free ThinkerNY
Full length image:

Negatives:


7 posted on 12/23/2011 6:10:35 PM PST by DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis (Chag Hanukkah Sameach!)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Looks like Jesus to me. Are there any other photos we can compare it to? :-)

No, but I think there are several pieces of toast you can compare it to. ;-)

8 posted on 12/23/2011 6:10:40 PM PST by MIchaelTArchangel (Obama means crooked.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Didn’t a guy by the name of Douglas Wilson show a couple of years ago how the shroud could have been a made? I think he was a pastor or something in Idaho at the time.


9 posted on 12/23/2011 6:12:41 PM PST by chickenlips (Mitt Romney, Obama's ticket to term 2)
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To: Mr. K

Suderium, I think


10 posted on 12/23/2011 6:17:39 PM PST by Judith Anne (For rhe sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us, and on the whole world.)
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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis


11 posted on 12/23/2011 6:26:31 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas gerit)
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To: JoeProBono

Merry CHRISTmas, all.

IMMANUEL.


12 posted on 12/23/2011 6:31:43 PM PST by Chong
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To: DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis


13 posted on 12/23/2011 6:32:19 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas gerit)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; Mr. K

Veronica’s Veil, The Veil of Veronica, or Sudarium (Latin for sweat-cloth).
As Jesus carried his cross, he paused and wiped his face on Veronica’s Veil, and His image was imprinted on it.


14 posted on 12/23/2011 6:32:58 PM PST by visualops (artlife.us)
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To: Chong


15 posted on 12/23/2011 6:40:57 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas gerit)
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To: Swordmaker

It’s two week’s ago ~ nothing wrong with creating a new thread now and discussing the same material here.


16 posted on 12/23/2011 6:49:53 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Swordmaker
It's two week's ago ~ nothing wrong with creating a new thread now and discussing the same material here.

BTW, thanks for referencing the original ~ I missed it.

17 posted on 12/23/2011 6:50:18 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Free ThinkerNY

There will always be believers and disbelievers.

Just as there will always be Truthers that believe 911 was faked.

I have Faith that the cloth is real.That Jesus Christ was the son of God and that Mary was virgin.

If others do not have Faith, that is their problem.


18 posted on 12/23/2011 7:13:01 PM PST by Venturer
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To: visualops

Can anyone go see the supposed Veronica’s Veil?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5305592.stm


19 posted on 12/23/2011 7:13:55 PM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: RummyChick

looks like anyone can go see this veil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ib_Ic_lOPw


20 posted on 12/23/2011 7:15:07 PM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: chickenlips
Didn’t a guy by the name of Douglas Wilson show a couple of years ago how the shroud could have been a made? I think he was a pastor or something in Idaho at the time.

I think that would have been pounded by the media into the collective mindset of the culture if he had.

They'd do anything to deprive Christianity of a major icon of the faith.

Last I had heard though was that there has been no one to date who has been able to come up with a convincing or accurate duplicate that can endure the same level of scrutiny.

21 posted on 12/23/2011 7:16:03 PM PST by Caipirabob ( Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: RummyChick

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.146913178676534.20683.146647945369724&type=3

“Experts determined that the cloth of Manoppello is not Veronica’s veil, but rather the face cloth layed over the face of Jesus in the tomb. Unlike the Shroud of Turin, which is a “negative” of the image, the image on the face cloth is a “positive” of the face of Christ. “


22 posted on 12/23/2011 7:27:58 PM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: Venturer

“There will always be believers and disbelievers.

Just as there will always be Truthers that believe 911 was faked.

I have Faith that the cloth is real.That Jesus Christ was the son of God and that Mary was virgin.

If others do not have Faith, that is their problem.”

The shroud will just be another idol that members of the RCC cult will worship.


23 posted on 12/23/2011 8:08:38 PM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: Free ThinkerNY

What is fascinating about what is seen on the shroud is that it is a pixel image (made up of dots) with a resolution 5 times higher than the best commercial laser printer and it contains 3-D information. Also, the image is not formed by any dye, ink paint or burning, as the cloth fiber itself DOES NOT CONTAIN THE IMAGE! The image is formed only on the thin layer of soapwort which was left on the surface when the cloth was washed and dried during its manufacture. The pixels that create the image are spots of the soapwort that have been darkened by some unknown process, but the underlying fabric is completely unaffected. What is also amazing is that the image is on BOTH sides of the fabric. It is more visible on one side because there was more soapwort residue on that side, the side that was away from the sun as it was laid out to dry when the cloth was initially manufactured.


24 posted on 12/23/2011 8:10:53 PM PST by kik5150
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To: Free ThinkerNY

I see the Democrat trolls have now arrived at Free Republic.


25 posted on 12/23/2011 8:21:21 PM PST by popdonnelly (Socialism isn't going to work this time, either.)
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To: RummyChick

here is an interesting discussion about Veronica’s veil

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1646533/posts


26 posted on 12/23/2011 8:52:28 PM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: MIchaelTArchangel
No, but I think there are several pieces of toast you can compare it to. ;-)

I just made a snow angel that looks very similar. :-)

27 posted on 12/23/2011 9:23:50 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping Swordmaker.


28 posted on 12/23/2011 10:09:52 PM PST by csense
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To: Free ThinkerNY

The Turin Shroud always seemed to to be too elaborate for a Mdieval forgery. There were many holy relics in those days that were by today’s
understanding would be laughable in their crudeness, but in their day were regarded as genuine. A Medieval forger would have had no reason to make a forgery that defies 21st century science to explain how it was made and could have used a crude fake just as effectively. I doubt anyone during the time suggested by the carbon dating could even concieved let alone created the Shroud’s image. Is it the real burial shroud of Jesus? There really can be no proof ...the image is just unexplainable.


29 posted on 12/23/2011 10:18:46 PM PST by The Great RJ ("The problem with socialism is that pretty soon you run out of other people's money" M. Thatcher)
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To: Mr. K
It is called the Selennium (or something similar in spelling) and it said to be the cloth used to wipe his face that left an image

It's called the Sudarium of Oviedo... and it's a sweat cloth... no image on it. It has matching blood stains and a bloody handprint. It was used like a kerchief, wound and then wrapped under the chin, around the face, behind the ears and over the crown of the head to keep the mouth closed in death.

30 posted on 12/23/2011 10:52:45 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: chickenlips
Didn’t a guy by the name of Douglas Wilson show a couple of years ago how the shroud could have been a made? I think he was a pastor or something in Idaho at the time.

No, he made some sun bleached linen images... that faded as the sun bleached the rest of the cloth to match. He worked from a negative to duplicate another negative image. His did not look much like the Shroud... but it was a light image, not a 3D terrain map, which is what the Shroud image actually is.

31 posted on 12/23/2011 10:54:46 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: chickenlips
Didn’t a guy by the name of Douglas Wilson show a couple of years ago how the shroud could have been a made? I think he was a pastor or something in Idaho at the time.

No, he made some sun bleached linen images... that faded as the sun bleached the rest of the cloth to match. He worked from a negative to duplicate another negative image. His did not look much like the Shroud... but it was a light image, not a 3D terrain map, which is what the Shroud image actually is.

32 posted on 12/23/2011 10:54:49 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: Bayard

Yes, it is the face of our brother...I keep it as my screen saver always!


33 posted on 12/23/2011 10:58:35 PM PST by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo with laughter")
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To: Free ThinkerNY

Cool

thanks for posting and Merry Christmas.


34 posted on 12/23/2011 11:02:40 PM PST by sdpatriot (Rush:" the media didn't make her, so they can't control her")
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To: visualops
Veronica’s Veil, The Veil of Veronica, or Sudarium (Latin for sweat-cloth).

The sudarium and the veronica are two different cloths... The veronica comes from an entirely different tradition. The sudarium is supposedly the sweat cloth from the graveclothes. Veronica's veil is the cloth a woman used to help Jesus on the Via Delarosa when he slipped and she wiped his face with her veil. There are two known veronica's. One in the Vatican, and one in Manipolo... the one in Manipoli is on a very fine thin cloth called Byssus which comes from a sea urchin and can be seen from both sides but shows paint and is actually thought to be a self-portrait of Raphael ... the one in the Vatican is on Linen.

The name "Veronica" literally means "True Image"...

35 posted on 12/23/2011 11:03:25 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: visualops
Veronica’s Veil, The Veil of Veronica, or Sudarium (Latin for sweat-cloth).

The sudarium and the veronica are two different cloths... The veronica comes from an entirely different tradition. The sudarium is supposedly the sweat cloth from the graveclothes. Veronica's veil is the cloth a woman used to help Jesus on the Via Delarosa when he slipped and she wiped his face with her veil. There are two known veronica's. One in the Vatican, and one in Manipolo... the one in Manipoli is on a very fine thin cloth called Byssus which comes from a sea urchin and can be seen from both sides but shows paint and is actually thought to be a self-portrait of Raphael ... the one in the Vatican is on Linen.

The name "Veronica" literally means "True Image"...

36 posted on 12/23/2011 11:03:34 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: RummyChick
“Experts determined that the cloth of Manoppello is not Veronica’s veil, but rather the face cloth layed over the face of Jesus in the tomb. Unlike the Shroud of Turin, which is a “negative” of the image, the image on the face cloth is a “positive” of the face of Christ. “

Experts have determined no such thing. It is actually from a much later time and is reported in history. It is a self-portrait of the painter Raphael as a young man painted on Byssus... a very rare, extremely expensive cloth... or still expensive French Cambric cotton. There are extant letters between Raphael (1483-1520) and Albrecht Dürer (1471-1528) in which they discuss these transparent paintings which they exchanged between themselves. Under a microscope, pigments can be seen on the Manoppello veil., especially in the whites of the eyes.. and it is described in the Raphael letter to Dürer from 1507 - 1508. . . about 130 years before it shows up in Manoppello in 1638.

The first picture above is a self-portrait of Raphael at age 20, the second is the Manoppello Veronica, the third is Raphael's self-portrait at about 32 years old (He died at 37)... the two self-portraits book end the of age 22- 25 at which age he painted the byssus/cambric painting he sent to Dürer which is thought to be the image in Manoppello. You can see the image is very much like him.

The last image is the Vatican's Veronica... on linen.

37 posted on 12/23/2011 11:54:24 PM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: SVTCobra03

And what cult do you belong to?


38 posted on 12/24/2011 3:57:51 AM PST by Venturer
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To: SVTCobra03

My faith does not depend on the shroud of Turin.
It is based entirely on Scripture.
No, I do not believe the shroud is what some claim it to be.


39 posted on 12/24/2011 6:30:34 AM PST by arjay (NOMOBAMA)
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To: Swordmaker

There seems to be a lot of questionable statements made as fact when it comes to these Veils.

I still don’t have a definitive answer as to whether the expert on byssus said this veil was made of byssus or cambria.

What exactly did she say?

In regards to the transparent paintings...are you sure that Raphael sent a transparent painting?

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=transparent%20paintings%20raphael%20letters%20to%20d%C3%BCrer&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDcQFjAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwebspace.yale.edu%2Fwood%2Fdocuments%2Fmessagefromraphaelenglish.pdf&ei=uf71TtK3MYqOgwevsYWzAg&usg=AFQjCNEdcZ75LuLwUh2_RjqVC1uoW2C8yA&cad=rja

Certainly Durer did. Certainly it shows it is possible. Maybe Raphael didn’t paint it but someone else did.

If the veil is byssus and not cambric does that change the dynamic?

By the way, what do you think of Vincent Ruello’s claim that he can see the face on Veronica’s veil at St Peters through his special filming process. I found that this morning but all the videos have been removed that I have found so far - leading me to think it was a hoax.


40 posted on 12/24/2011 9:13:37 AM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: RummyChick

ahh..maybe this explains why I can’t find video by Vincent...

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Worlds-Oldest-Photograph-First-Photograph-Ever-Taken-Publication-Rights-/230684597269


41 posted on 12/24/2011 9:17:32 AM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: RummyChick
"On examining the cloth, Professor L. Portoghesi, a specialist in first-century fabrics, determined that the material is byssus – the most expensive material of ancient times. Dr Chiara Vigo, the world’s leading expert in byssus linens, corroborates Portoghesi’s finding."

http://www.loamagazine.org/nr/the_main_topic/the_greatest_miracle_in.html

But is that sentence factual??? Here is a translation of the interview:

http://holyfaceofmanoppello.blogspot.com/2008/06/interview-with-chiara-vigo-expert.html
42 posted on 12/24/2011 9:31:34 AM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: RummyChick

chiara viago television interview
http://en.gloria.tv/?media=122182

small clip.might be more in the internet.

So the question is...could Veronica’s veil be a painting done on Byssus.

If not scientifically possible, then it doesn’t matter if Durer did a transparent painting of Jesus or Raphael or of himself. This wouldn’t be it.


43 posted on 12/24/2011 9:37:21 AM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: RummyChick

Badde does say that experts say that it is not Veronica’s Veil but a burial cloth. This might explain how a costly fabric got involved with the “miracle”

Byssus can be dyed. Can you use watercolors on it?

But here is an interesting point to me.

How long has that relic been in sunlight?

If it is a painting it is not a very good one. Weren’t Raphael and Durer better painters than that??

Here is a claim that the images are NOT the same on both sides

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/jaworski.pdf


44 posted on 12/24/2011 9:59:59 AM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: Swordmaker

My cursory research, which is FAR LESS than yours, does not back up what you claim.

I find that Durer sent a transparent painting to Raphael. I have seen it described as fine silk , cambric, and byssus. I have seen references that byssus back then could have had a more generic meaning than it does today. Thus, the different words used by Vasari to describe the painting don’t conflict.

It was left to Guilio Romano. Vasari saw it in Mantua. Romano placed it at the Palace at Mantua. In exchange, Durer got nude drawings for the Battle of Ostia.

Raphael wanted to depict Durer in a Stanza.

This is not to say that Raphael isn’t reponsible for the Veronica’s Veil or that someone else isn’t reponsible.

But it is a leap to say Vasari says Raphael sent a transparent painting.

I would be very interested to see where you got your info.


45 posted on 12/24/2011 11:05:30 AM PST by RummyChick (It's a Satan Sandwich with Satan Fries on the side - perfect for Obama 666)
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To: MIchaelTArchangel; Invincibly Ignorant

> No, but I think there are several pieces of toast you can compare it to. ;-)

Thank you. SO many gullible people - as this thread shows.


46 posted on 12/24/2011 2:05:36 PM PST by Oatka (This is the USA, assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: Oatka
Yes, those who listen to trolls such as yourself.

You show up to defile every Shroud thread with your rantings.

Fie upon thee, miscreant.

47 posted on 12/24/2011 9:30:47 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: RummyChick
I still don’t have a definitive answer as to whether the expert on byssus said this veil was made of byssus or cambria.

What exactly did she say?

In regards to the transparent paintings...are you sure that Raphael sent a transparent painting?

I do not know what she really said. It does not matter.

I AM certain that Raphael sent a transparent self-portrait to Albrecht Dürer in 1508 because I have read the English translation of the letter exchanged between the two men discussing their techniques and the exchange of paintings. Raphael discusses using both cambric and Byssus cloth in his attempts but does not say which cloth the painting he sent to Dürer is done on.

However, for this to be Jesus has other problems. The photomicrographs taken of the Manoppello veil clearly show that the image is made of PIGMENTS! It has distinct pigments clinging to the fibers wherever there is image. Ergo, it is not miraculously created by Jesus pressing his face to a veil on the Via Delarosa. Secondly, the wounds on Jesus face, incurred before making the trek to Golgotha, are entirely missing, as are the blood stains from the crown of thorns. Finally, image on the Manoppello veil sports a young man's wispy beard and no mustache. The man on the Shroud, has a full beard and a full mustache. There is no comparison. Dr. Alan Whanger applied his comparison system on exact life size images of the Manoppello veil and Shroud images, and found only seven points of congruence... The same you'd find on a photo of any male or female face. But when he did the same with an equalized sized self-portrait of Rapf Hazel, there were over sixty points of congruence. Not enough for certainty, but enough to exclude the man on the shroud as being the same face!

If the material is cambric, it does indeed change the dynamic because cambric is a cloth that was only developed in the fifteenth century and certainly was not available to have been present on the Via Delarosa.

48 posted on 12/25/2011 1:47:26 AM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: Swordmaker

Damn auto correction. Rapf hazel is Raphael.


49 posted on 12/25/2011 1:58:22 AM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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To: RummyChick
I find that Durer sent a transparent painting to Raphael. I have seen it described as fine silk , cambric, and byssus. I have seen references that byssus back then could have had a more generic meaning than it does today. Thus, the different words used by Vasari to describe the painting don’t conflict.

Those who knew cloth would not have used the terms interchangeably. The costs were considerably different. Byssus today is over a $1000 a square foot! It was 100 times more costly than silk in medieval times, so a knowledgeable person would not confabulate silk, cambria, and Byssus! Byssus was essentially reserved for royalty.

The only source we have for the inability for paint to stick to Byssus, is the modern weaver lady... And frankly I doubt her. Raphael wrote about getting his best result on Byssus. . . with paint. If you can dye it, you can paint it. There is nothing magical about Byssus that would make it shed paint any more than any other organic substance. One can paint a pearl... One reason that few examples of Byssus cloth survive is that moths love to eat it! It is very fragile.

when I was researching the Manoppello Veronica in 2006, my recollection is that the Raphael/Dürer letters were quoted in an art book published in 1936 or so. . . I cannot comment on the accuracy of the translations as I have no expertise on sixteenth century German. I relied on the translations. However the art book was not discussing anything about Veronica's or the Manoppello veil, just the unique attempt at transparent art the two famous artists were attempting, with varying degrees of success. Raphael was not too pleased with the difficulty of working on the diaphonous cloth and it's tendency to stretch, making accuracy difficult. The translations had been actually done in he nineteenth century, IIRC.

Some people think the Manoppello veil is Dürer's self-portrait... But it just doesn't match his looks. Here is his own self-portrait from 1500:


Albrecht Dürer c. 1500

You can see his hair, beard, and mustache are much more pronounced than the image on the Manoppello image. He just does not look like it.

50 posted on 12/25/2011 2:35:48 AM PST by Swordmaker (This tag line is a Microsoft product "insult" free zone.)
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