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Football Pitch-Sized Batteries Could Change the World of Renewable Energy
Oilprice ^ | 08/01/2012 | James Burgess

Posted on 01/09/2012 11:30:36 AM PST by bananaman22

2011 saw huge advances in solar, wind and other renewable energy sources, and these advancements will continue into 2012. In fact 2012 could be the year that renewable energy sources start to seriously compete with traditional fossil fuels, at least that is the hope in the battle to reduce carbon emissions and our dependence on dwindling oil stocks. However a major problem with renewable energy sources is that they can rarely provide consistent power levels, due to a myriad of factors outside of human control.

Eric Wesoff, an industry analyst with Greentech Media, explains that, “A wind farm only works when the blades are spinning. It might have a nameplate capacity of 100 megawatts, but it never puts out that much. Sometimes it’s 70; sometimes it’s nothing. To a grid operator, that kind of resource is a headache rather than an aspirin.” To overcome these fluctuations energy storage systems can be used to store excess power at peak generating times and release it when needed to provide a more constant level. “So now that 100-MW wind farm can say, ‘We’re a 40-MW, steady-state, 24/7 energy source’—more like a coal plant. That’s more valuable to society.”

The most abundant energy storage system in use around the world is the battery, but producing giant batteries for the electrical grid has always been very expensive. Lots of research has been done into small batteries for mobile phones and MP3 players, etc. and now, according to Haresh Kamath, program manager for energy-storage research at the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI). “The research applied to those industries is now being applied to batteries for the grid.” In fact the world’s largest battery array, a $500 million system capable of storing 36 megawatt-hours of electricity, has recently been completed in China by the State Grid Corporation of China (SGCC) and the electric car maker BYD. As part of China’s push toward a smart grid system for renewable energy, the battery has been hooked up to 140 megawatts of solar and wind power generation as well as a smart grid transmission system. And we can expect more of these battery facilities after the Deputy Director of China’s National Energy Administration called it the model for the future of Chinese renewable energy development. Full article at: Football Pitch-Sized Batteries Could Change the World of Renewable Energy


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: batteries; battery; energy; energystorage; oilstocks; renewableenergy

1 posted on 01/09/2012 11:30:49 AM PST by bananaman22
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To: thackney; steelyourfaith

Ping.


2 posted on 01/09/2012 11:33:35 AM PST by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: bananaman22

That’s all well and good but how much damage will be done to them by cleats; and are they as easy to repair/replace as sod?


3 posted on 01/09/2012 11:37:47 AM PST by WayneS (Comments now include 25% MORE sarcasm for no additional charge...)
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To: WayneS

Grid - Gridiron

Same thing, right?


4 posted on 01/09/2012 11:42:04 AM PST by bigbob
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To: bananaman22

This has the sound of a business plan that only makes sense from the standpoint of a state-run neo-fascist economy fed by endless amounts of cheap labor. Like China. Otherwise, giant batteries make no more sense than giant capacitors or giant windmills.


5 posted on 01/09/2012 11:42:04 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
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To: bananaman22

This is interesting. It would be fun to amortize to 20 year total cost of ownership of a coal burning plant, a nuclear plant and a wind farm with these batteries. Let’s also factor in reliability and cost of power produced.

I suspect the wind farm (or solar farm) will still lose.


6 posted on 01/09/2012 11:44:18 AM PST by upchuck (Let's have the Revolution NOW before we get dumbed down to the point that we can't.)
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To: bananaman22

There is a large wind farm on I-65 north of Indianapolis. Usually when we drive through virtually all the blades are turning. We were driving down from Chicago on the 1st of January on a particularly windy day and maybe one in ten was operating. I assumed they had batteries to store the excess power until I saw that.

It never dawned on me that batteries may be prohibitively expensive. Too bad they can’t sell excess power like Washington state does to California.


7 posted on 01/09/2012 11:45:24 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: bananaman22
A big problem with large scale storage is losses. How much in loss do you get say from taking Wind, putting it through storage and then back onto the grid? What is the percentage of loss?

I knew a storage facility in the 1970 call Crater Lake. Excess power was used to put water up to a mountain lake, then when needed though Hyrdo generators. Don't know how efficient that was. But how efficient would lake storage be in comparison to batteries? And how long would the storage last in comparison?

These are the engineering questions needed lest we have another Solyndra.

8 posted on 01/09/2012 11:46:03 AM PST by sr4402
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To: Army Air Corps

http://www05.abb.com/global/scot/scot232.nsf/veritydisplay/3c4e15816e4a7bf1c12578d100500565/$file/case_note_bess_gvea_fairbanks-web.pdf

Primary Supply: 138 kV / 187 A / 59-60.5 Hz
DC link Voltage / Current: 3440-5200 V / 12000 A
Total AC Power: 46 MVA


9 posted on 01/09/2012 11:46:21 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: bananaman22

Let see pro football stadiums are used 16 weekends (plus a few playoff cames). For the other 330 days a year should we flood them and turn them into giant batteries. Great idea....


10 posted on 01/09/2012 11:47:22 AM PST by Quick Shot
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To: bananaman22
Footballl Pitch-Size battery?

Is the author taking about a kick-ball field size battery?

11 posted on 01/09/2012 11:48:22 AM PST by TexasCajun
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To: bananaman22

Liquid Thorium reactors..... We need them.


12 posted on 01/09/2012 11:49:29 AM PST by GraceG
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To: bananaman22

“Trust Me” — green energy industry


13 posted on 01/09/2012 11:50:52 AM PST by pabianice (")
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To: bananaman22

So wind power is even more expensive?


14 posted on 01/09/2012 11:57:57 AM PST by taxcontrol
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To: bananaman22

The whole idea is DOA. Battery economics will never be able to overcome the drawbacks of battery physics. That is to say, the energy produced by ‘renewable’ resources will NEVER be able to overcome the cost of building, maintaining, and eventually disposing of and replacing the battery. ALL batteries are consumable, and you have to factor that cost into the entire picture.


15 posted on 01/09/2012 11:59:03 AM PST by rottndog (Be Prepared for what's coming AFTER America....)
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To: andy58-in-nh

Batteries do wind up failing over time. Internal resistance builds up due to heat. They don’t last forever.


16 posted on 01/09/2012 12:00:33 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: bananaman22

Great!
A giant football pitch sized battery that can go into a violent discharge state.
Wonder what that looks like?


17 posted on 01/09/2012 12:04:12 PM PST by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: bananaman22
The most abundant energy storage system in use around the world is the battery,

Actually the most efficient would be to have the wind turbines run a pump. Pump water up into a lake on top of a hill. Then use a hydroelectric plant to turn the stored energy into power at a steady rate. Batteries have a very low energy return rate for a given amount of energy put in. And they need to be replaced often. A storage lake, especially if it is also fed by a stream, could hold vast amounts of water for when you need power.
18 posted on 01/09/2012 12:05:44 PM PST by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: sr4402

Pumped Hydro storage is the most efficient and economic energy storage system over a long period of time with daily cycles. The efficiency of this system is typically between 70% and 85%.

http://www.electricitystorage.org/technology/storage_technologies/technology_comparison


19 posted on 01/09/2012 12:06:52 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: pabianice

Over 100 Criminal Probes Related to Stimulus Funding in the Department of Energy Alone
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/energy-department-ig-has-launched-over-100-crinimal-probes-related-stimulus-funding_607675.html

Obama Energy Department Is Going Back and Changing Solar Energy Loan Press Releases

The Obama Administration spent nearly half of the $38.6 billion ($17.2 billion) set aside for his green energy programs and was only able to create 3,545 permanent green jobs. This comes out to a staggering $4,853,000 per job.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/10/obama-energy-department-is-going-back-and-changing-solar-energy-loan-press-releases/

a battery will retail for $1000 a piece with a $995 tax credit available from Uncle Sugar.


20 posted on 01/09/2012 12:07:47 PM PST by WOBBLY BOB (Congress: Looting the future to bribe the present.)
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To: Darksheare
A giant football pitch sized battery that can go into a violent discharge state. Wonder what that looks like?

Post a pro Romney thread and CC Jim Rob. Kinda like that but without the cats in viking helmets.
21 posted on 01/09/2012 12:07:58 PM PST by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: GonzoGOP

Complete with the Undead Thread zombie apocalypse.


22 posted on 01/09/2012 12:11:02 PM PST by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: sr4402

Pumped Hydro storage is the most efficient and economic energy storage system over a long period of time with daily cycles. The efficiency of this system is typically between 70% and 85%.

http://www.electricitystorage.org/technology/storage_technologies/technology_comparison


23 posted on 01/09/2012 12:11:27 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: WOBBLY BOB
>>Obama Energy Department Is Going Back and Changing Solar Energy Loan Press Releases

Wow! Have you any examples?

24 posted on 01/09/2012 12:15:22 PM PST by pabianice (")
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To: bananaman22
“So now that 100-MW wind farm can say, ‘We’re a 40-MW, steady-state, 24/7 energy source’—

BS

Show me a windfarm that runs at a 40% capacity factor.

More likely 25%.

Just another green company to short.

25 posted on 01/09/2012 12:17:04 PM PST by cicero2k
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To: cuban leaf

Wind turbines are often locked down so that they can’t be damaged by high winds. What you saw might have been a day that was essentially, “too windy.” Neat, huh?


26 posted on 01/09/2012 12:19:59 PM PST by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: WOBBLY BOB
From the link:

Someone affiliated with the Department of Energy has been going back to make changes to press releases posted on the Internet weeks and months ago, CNBC has found. The changes occurred in two press releases from the Department of Energy’s loan guarantee program — the same program that has been the center of controversy surrounding the failed solar company Solyndra.

Both were changed to remove the name of a company that has received negative press attention in recent days, SunPower, and replace it with the name of another company, NRG Energy [NRG 20.89 -0.14 (-0.67%) ].

Generally, it is not considered correct procedure to revise old press releases retroactively on the Web. More commonly, government agencies will issue a new press release with a current date explaining any changes that have occurred.

In the April case, the Department of Energy loan programs office announced in a press release on April 12 “conditional commitment” to a $1.187 billion loan guarantee to support the California Valley Solar Ranch project, which it said was “sponsored by SunPower Corporation.”

But that release was later changed on one website to say the project was “sponsored by NRG Energy.” The date on the release remained “April 12, 2011.”

27 posted on 01/09/2012 12:41:38 PM PST by WOBBLY BOB (Congress: Looting the future to bribe the present.)
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To: bananaman22

Batteries would just make it more expensive.


28 posted on 01/09/2012 12:57:07 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.)
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To: bananaman22

Futball (soccer) is played on a “pitch”. Football (American) is played on a field.

The pitch is somewhat larger than the field.


29 posted on 01/09/2012 12:57:45 PM PST by Cletus.D.Yokel (Islam is a tyrannical and violent POLITICAL ideology and has nothing to do with "religion".)
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To: Tallguy

—What you saw might have been a day that was essentially, “too windy.” Neat, huh?—

What it is is laughable. :)

I actually wondered that at the time and said to myself, “Naw. That would be stupid.”


30 posted on 01/09/2012 1:02:06 PM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

Not really. In the Days of Sail, ships would “reef their sails”, taking-in canvas so as to limit the dangerous effects of high wind gusts that might damage or roll a ship. It’s the same principle, really.


31 posted on 01/09/2012 1:14:26 PM PST by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: Tallguy

—Not really. In the Days of Sail, ships would “reef their sails”, taking-in canvas so as to limit the dangerous effects of high wind gusts that might damage or roll a ship. It’s the same principle, really.—

But the sailors didn’t completely remove the sails. When the wind turbines are stopped, the blades are feathered. Why can’t they just partially feather them for high wind? That’s why I thought it was “stupid” to just turn them off if the wind is high.

Regarding the ships, I assume that is why they have those horizontal rows of string in the sails every few vertical feet.


32 posted on 01/09/2012 1:20:08 PM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf

They would vary the pitch of the wind mill blades according to the wind-speed, but that would be affective only up to a certain point and then they’d have to lock the rotor down.

Regarding the sailing ships: in very high winds you might see all the square sails furled and only the jib sheets and a stern lanteen mast rigged to maintain some directional control.


33 posted on 01/09/2012 1:26:31 PM PST by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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To: cuban leaf

That was the White County Wind Farm you drove through on I-65.
Obama’s Chinese-made, stimulus paid-for windmills don’t run when the temps get above 90 degrees. They could burn out in the heat...
They don’t run when it’s too COLD...
They don’t run if the wind is gusting over 38MPH...
They don’t run if there is no wind above 8MPH...
They don’t run in icing conditions...
They don’t run during storms...
The BEST Purdue University has been able to get out of the HUGE, federally-subsidized White County Wind Farm is LESS THAN 30% Efficiency..
30 FREAKIN’ PERCENT EFFICIENCY!!!


34 posted on 01/09/2012 1:30:14 PM PST by Recon Dad (Gas & Petroleum Junkie)
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To: thackney

OK, so if Pumped Storage is 70%-85% Efficient, what is Wind to Electricity, to the Best Battery to Generator efficiency? and how long would the Storage life compare?


35 posted on 01/09/2012 1:31:23 PM PST by sr4402
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To: Army Air Corps

I can’t get too excited about this when solar powered flying cars are just around the corner.


36 posted on 01/09/2012 1:31:48 PM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: cuban leaf

They were probably shut down. If it’s too windy they will blow themselves up so they have to be shut down.


37 posted on 01/09/2012 1:36:14 PM PST by Pafreedom
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To: bananaman22

“2011 saw huge advances in solar, wind and other renewable energy sources, “

What?!

Can anyone point me to a “huge advance” story that does NOT contain the words “could” or “might” or some similar qualifier? I don’t think so.


38 posted on 01/09/2012 1:36:52 PM PST by Lee'sGhost (Johnny Rico picked the wrong girl!)
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To: bananaman22

I follow this site on a regular basis and have noted they are very pro wind and solar energy. Go into their comments section and and it won’t take long to see who their audience is.

I find Fuel Fix, Institute for Energy Research and Rig Zone are better informed.


39 posted on 01/09/2012 1:36:56 PM PST by Recon Dad (Gas & Petroleum Junkie)
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To: andy58-in-nh

It also assumes that the renewable energy source produces more energy than the grid demands in order to put the excess power into the batteries.


40 posted on 01/09/2012 1:41:38 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.)
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To: sr4402
I can try to answer part of you question, but this part

Wind to Electricity... efficiency

is naturally quite low and not important. We really don't want to take 100% of the wind energy and stop all wind. We actually do not want to have a measurable impact.

What would be a meaningful comparison to pumped storage, which is electricity in; stored over time; electricity out to the same input output with a battery in the middle.

If that is what you want, I can search it out, but it it will not be close to pumped storage for efficiency.

41 posted on 01/09/2012 1:42:42 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Lee'sGhost
Can anyone point me to a “huge advance” story that does NOT contain the words “could” or “might” or some similar qualifier? I don’t think so.

10 to 1 that the "huge advances" that to which the author refers are in the form of govenment subsidies to constuct these boondogles. That would not be a "technical breakthrough."

42 posted on 01/09/2012 1:48:00 PM PST by Tallguy (It's all 'Fun and Games' until somebody loses an eye!)
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Looking For Donors


Click The Pic

Are You One?

43 posted on 01/09/2012 1:50:27 PM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: bananaman22

Don’t stick your tongue across the terminals to test it.


44 posted on 01/09/2012 1:52:06 PM PST by AZLiberty (No tag today.)
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To: bananaman22

What dwindling supply of fossil fuels? We have more known reserves today than we did 40 years ago. We have barely explored the ocean floor for coal and natural gas. We have just recently discovered oil at 7,000 feet below the deep ocean floor. Good G—! We keep hyping this ‘running out of oil so we have to completely retool and blah blah blah’.


45 posted on 01/09/2012 1:55:52 PM PST by dirtymac (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country., Really! NOW!!!)
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To: Army Air Corps; grey_whiskers; ApplegateRanch; Whenifhow; WL-law; Berlin_Freeper; Horusra; ...
Thanx for the ping Army Air Corps !

 


Beam me to Planet Gore !

46 posted on 01/09/2012 2:52:58 PM PST by steelyourfaith (If it's "green" ... it's crap !!!)
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To: bananaman22

Gee, I’m W-A-A-A-A-Y behind the times:

I had NO IDEA that A/C batteries had been invented, let alone G-I-A-N-T ones built! /S


47 posted on 01/09/2012 8:48:55 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (I prefer Crony Capitalism to Crony Judicialism...unless it's MY crony on the bench)
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To: sr4402

Power companies have been doing hydro pumped storage for at least a few decades now. Georgia Power does it in Middle Georgia. The technology is well known, and I know they know the losses. I want to say the overall efficiency is in the 65% range.

They use it to run base-load nuclear and coal plants all night at higher load factors pumping water, then do peaking power with the hydro during the day.

And Wiki says 70% to 85%, so I was off a little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity


48 posted on 01/10/2012 6:17:03 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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