Skip to comments.Native Americans actually came from a tiny mountain region in Siberia, DNA research reveals
Posted on 01/27/2012 8:32:48 AM PST by Theoria
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I once knew an Indian who spoke Russian. How did you learn Russian, I asked? From my father, he said. And he? From his father. Now it all starts making sense.
Were Altoids the traditional mint of the Altaics?
Stole? Nobody ever stole land before land rights were established. You either held it by force or let it go and move or die in the face of greater force. All the liberal handwringing about displacing ‘native peoples’ is nonsense as said natives weren’t really native, but trespassers themselves who’d driven out the previous trespassers.
Fascinating that they’re frozen in time technologically. That photo, if the tech existed, could have been taken centuries earlier. I wonder if some cultures are simply dead ends.
That is one long dang walk.
Your monomania is refreshing in contrast to people who can’t seem to think about anything else.
We're slipping people post 58?
Outstanding post. Won’t our white guilt ever be assauged?
Can you see us setting up additional “native” casinos as DNA evidence points to additionl genotypes having been here before?
Great catch and good comment. Any floating piece of wood would teach the lesson effectively.
Ping me to the haplogroup info when you get it please.
Alpogroup ping. ;-]
Check out the Zuni.
Growing evidence shows that the first Americans came from Europ
There is also growing evidence that just about everybody came to the Americas long before the 15th Century, starting with the Jomon in Japan 16,000 or more years ago.
The whole thing about so-called native Americans claims today is based on their insistance that they were created here - this is a political and legal argument.
This last is why they demand no studies of early remains: if those remains prove not to be related to them, then their whole argument falls and along with that all their ‘special’ rights, rights which no other US citizen has or can share in:
exemption from Federal Income Tax, unrestricted commercial hunting and fishing, unregulated casinos, tax free sales of tobacco, unrestricted fireworks sales, BIA subsistance checks, and so on.
A typical Makah male (in the PNW) for example, could fish for sockeye salmon (when the season was closed for every one else) catch seveal thousand pounds, come in sell to the buyer for $1.25 lb, turn around and pull his halibut longline, sell those hundreds of pounds for $2.50lb, tieup, go collect his BIA check, his SS check, his timber check, his welfare check and food stamps. Visit Aunt Petunia for his share of the million dollar sale of their yearly family whale hunt.
When he gets home, take all the money and stuff it into a dresser filled with $100 bills, take some and go get drunk, stoned or both for the rest of the month.
But remember he is a poor downtrodden Treaty indian, so the tribe needs to lobby for more money.
The are individual nations with ‘special’ rights granted by the Constitution - rights which are theirs, not ours - they have rights, we have privileges, their rights are supreme, our privileges can be revoked at any given time. Thus Spake SCOTUS.
How does the Toba bottleneck connect with this?
That eruption happened 74,000 years ago, which was very ancient history by 15,000 BC., the period under discussion. Any putative connection is moot.
What the genetic structure of pre-Toba humans was, no one knows since they are all dead, and all humans today are descended from the handful of survivors. Or so the theory goes.
Now it all starts making sense.
Es[pecially if you know that Russia once owned both California and Alaska...
Seems like a good time to update the ping message over in that topic.
The evidence from the Toba eruption indicates that the world's population of Modern Man was reduced to a total of around 10,000 adults.
Thanks for the ping. So, how did they get to South America? Did they walk the length of two continents?
There's not much wood available in those areas aside from the occasional piece of driftwood, but I'm sure if they could make spears and arrows, they could cobble together a boat. Walrus and seal haul out on the Russian coast as well as Alaskan, so their hides would have been seen as a resource at a very early stage. In place of wood, traditional umiats contained whalebone frames. Walking on the ice in the winter is an art. Eskimo have numerous words for "snow" and they would be adept at reading conditions.
Sounds like your cousin's husband would be a kindred spirit to the old professor I studied under. His name was Edward Milligan and he had been adopted into the Dakota tribe. He published under the title Historic Migration of North American Indian Tribes and his work was largely pooh-poohed by the experts, many of them for allegedly superficial reasons like Prof. Milligan's imperfect grammar in writing.
His most memorable statement was squarely aimed against some of his critics who still contend all original Native American migration was over the Bering Strait land bridge. The Prof. pointed out that every other civilization built their greatest cities near where they first entered the continent, then more rudimentary dwellings as they moved further away. "Why," asked the professor, "should only America be the opposite?" The greatest evidence of civilization are concentrated between Peru and Central Mexico. Northern Mexico and the American southwest still have some fairly impressive but less developed evidence of civilization. But as you move into Northern California and up the Pacific Northwest to the Bering Straight, evidence of even rudimentary civilizations grow even more sparse. You can't dismiss it by climate alone because at least the southern portion of the Pacific Northwest has a climate far milder than the mountains of Peru where these ancient people thrived.
But at least give Indians credit for knowing that the key to maintaining the cash flow is to restrict numbers by definition. If you can't prove x% of tribal blood in a given tribe, you are out of luck like me. Even if the sum total of d% of tribe A, e% of tribe B and f% of tribe C exceeds the x%.
It is a glorious little scam. Most tribes will allow some reciprocity, but usually only when it is necessary to maintain some political clout or tribal recognition.
The "Hispanic" definition, on the other hand, works to pump up numbers and political clout, even through the bloodline may be totally different. Thus, "Hispanic" can take in both Berber and Basque (as long they lived in Spain at one time) as well as Argentinians of Italian descent, Puerto Ricans of African descent and Hondurans of Toltec descent.
If Native Americans tried to broaden our definition on a similar scale, the whole scam would collapse as there would be fewer goodies to go around. Just for fun, you should read up on the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina sometime. They've been trying unsuccessfully for years to get tribal recognition. Not so they can tap into a cornucopia of government goodies. Most of them are entrepreneurial and conservative and just want to be able to use these treaties to tell the government to shove off.
Ben Nighthorse Campbell, a distant relative of mine and former U.S. Senator from Colorado, also studied in Japan and made many of the same observations.
Or they merely vacationed there. 8)
Cultures where there is little contact with outsiders either through trade, conquest or even being conquered stagnate. No new ideas, no reason to ever do things another way.
That was a good book...worth a read.
I’m going to look for that book/paper tomorrow-I’m very interested in reading it.
The trade routes of early people in part the Americas can be followed from the seacoasts in Mexico, too. You can visit the ruins of the port cities, then the ruins of the trading/distribution centers inland and leading north, with the places getting smaller and less refined as you go inland and farther away-sort of a western caravan route, except that the goods came over the sea from far places rather than overland from those places.
If they traded the same way as people did later on, the best stuff-exotic luxury goods and such-was probably offered first in the costal and other big market centers for maximum profit and already traded out by the time the traders reached what passed for the frontier in that age. They probably loaded their pack animals with hard-to-get simple treats like cloth made of something softer than rough wool, finer animal skins, better tools and inexpensive decorative items for the homesteaders. There was no paleoindian/preclassical equivalent of the Sears catalog back then, after all...
Woah! They even used teepees.
Whoa! They even used teepees.
Sorry, but I don’t see how the reduction of the entire human population to 10,000 could possibly be moot.
What happened 60,000 years before the period under didcussion is moot. Do you have any idea how long 60,000 years is? The entirety of our known civilization only goes back a mere 8,000 years.
Whatever genes existed in the pre-Toba population which do not exist now is unknown. Those putative missing genes are just that: speculative. They make no difference to human evolution. Moot.
And 10,000 survivors is a rather high number, the actual number may be only 2,000. The Late Pleistocene was a rough time for humanity.
“They make no difference to human evolution. Moot.”
Perhaps we’re quibbling over the definition of the word “moot.”
A dieback in the human population to 10,000, or 2,000, cannot possibly be irrelevant to human evolution.
Probably add Koreans to that.
I don't have internet links immediately available, but I understand that Navajo is the modern language most closely related to Korean, with much more distant relationships to Finnish and Hungarian.
The assumption is different groups of people emigrated from the same area of central Siberia, with some ending up on the Korean peninsula, others crossing the Bering Strait to North America, and still others emigrating west to become Finns and Magyars.
A dieback in the human population to 10,000, or 2,000, cannot possibly be irrelevant to human evolution.
Well yes it is - if humans evolve from what we are now, it will be from the genes we now have. Those genes which were lost in Toba don’t count - they are gone. Those lost genes cannot effect our future evolution.
For all we know if Toba had not happened we could all be morons now ... oh wait....
There are a lot of theories about how that happened. One is that the native languages in the prehistoric period (in that part of the world) were actually ancestral to the Turkish language(s) that were spoken by later Eastern invaders.
What to look for in the future as we learn more and more about this phenomenon ~ could be the spread of the X-Factor DNA sequence. This is a DNA sequence that acts more or less as a bar-code for the Sa'ami. People who descend from the Sa'ami ~ a people who moved out of the Western European Ice Age "refugia" ~ of about 14,000 years ago, or MORE, have this sequence.
So far the Fulbe, Berber, Yakuts, Sa'ami, (lots of Finns and Norse), Iroquois, Chippewa and Cherokee have a large percentage of their number who have this sequence.
It is known to have originated among the Sa'ami and spread to the other groups.
They didn’t replace the indigeous population. Else their descendants wouldn’t have the X-Factor gene sequence.
Mu - say what?
“For all we know if Toba had not happened we could all be morons now ... oh wait....”
Or if it had not happened we could all have Stephen Hawkings’ brains and Baywatch good looks.
My point is that it almost certainly had an effect.
You, for the first time, mention “future” evolution. Yes, pre-Toba genes are irrelevant to *future* evolution.
What I was wondering about was what the effects might have been of reducing the gene pool to 2,000 (or whatever the correct number is).
Remember me telling you that many words in their language were pronounced and meant the same as those of the Korean & Chinese languages....
I wonder what the results were from the kenewick man?
Also, what about those rumers of Ghengis Kahn (Jinjis kahhn as said by john Kerry who served in Vienam) gallavanting around the world and spreading his seeds of love?
What I was wondering about was what the effects might have been of reducing the gene pool ...
What was the effect on your personal evolution of that toy your parents didn’t buy when you were three years old?
Same question put another way. One cannot know the effects of something that no longer exists, if it still existed.
One of the possible effects of the gene pool reduction is one bilion people pray 5 times a day to a rock facing toward a certain direction ...
Thank you for the info on Asian migrations...