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Native Americans actually came from a tiny mountain region in Siberia, DNA research reveals
Daily Mail ^ | 26 Jan 2012 | Rob Waugh

Posted on 01/27/2012 8:32:48 AM PST by Theoria

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To: redhead
...not to mention their ability to walk across the ice in the winter.

That's funny!

51 posted on 01/28/2012 9:05:05 PM PST by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: Theoria

I once knew an Indian who spoke Russian. How did you learn Russian, I asked? From my father, he said. And he? From his father. Now it all starts making sense.


52 posted on 01/28/2012 9:06:56 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Let us prey!)
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To: zot

Ping.


53 posted on 01/28/2012 9:11:44 PM PST by Interesting Times (WinterSoldier.com. SwiftVets.com. ToSetTheRecordStraight.com.)
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To: Theoria

Were Altoids the traditional mint of the Altaics?


54 posted on 01/28/2012 11:38:26 PM PST by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: A_Former_Democrat

Stole? Nobody ever stole land before land rights were established. You either held it by force or let it go and move or die in the face of greater force. All the liberal handwringing about displacing ‘native peoples’ is nonsense as said natives weren’t really native, but trespassers themselves who’d driven out the previous trespassers.


55 posted on 01/29/2012 5:17:05 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Godebert

Fascinating that they’re frozen in time technologically. That photo, if the tech existed, could have been taken centuries earlier. I wonder if some cultures are simply dead ends.


56 posted on 01/29/2012 5:22:02 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Theoria

That is one long dang walk.


57 posted on 01/29/2012 5:22:45 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Your monomania is refreshing in contrast to people who can’t seem to think about anything else.


58 posted on 01/29/2012 5:25:21 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Theoria

We're slipping people post 58?

59 posted on 01/29/2012 5:26:48 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: RitchieAprile

Outstanding post. Won’t our white guilt ever be assauged?

Can you see us setting up additional “native” casinos as DNA evidence points to additionl genotypes having been here before?


60 posted on 01/29/2012 5:27:19 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: redhead

Great catch and good comment. Any floating piece of wood would teach the lesson effectively.


61 posted on 01/29/2012 5:31:24 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Peter Libra

Ping me to the haplogroup info when you get it please.


62 posted on 01/29/2012 5:32:58 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: blam

Alpogroup ping. ;-]


63 posted on 01/29/2012 5:35:48 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: Yaelle

Check out the Zuni.


64 posted on 01/29/2012 5:37:21 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: 1010RD

Ha, ha.


65 posted on 01/29/2012 5:42:56 AM PST by blam
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To: 1010RD; Yaelle
The Zuni Enigma
66 posted on 01/29/2012 5:45:20 AM PST by blam
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To: pabianice

Growing evidence shows that the first Americans came from Europ

There is also growing evidence that just about everybody came to the Americas long before the 15th Century, starting with the Jomon in Japan 16,000 or more years ago.

The whole thing about so-called native Americans claims today is based on their insistance that they were created here - this is a political and legal argument.

This last is why they demand no studies of early remains: if those remains prove not to be related to them, then their whole argument falls and along with that all their ‘special’ rights, rights which no other US citizen has or can share in:

exemption from Federal Income Tax, unrestricted commercial hunting and fishing, unregulated casinos, tax free sales of tobacco, unrestricted fireworks sales, BIA subsistance checks, and so on.

A typical Makah male (in the PNW) for example, could fish for sockeye salmon (when the season was closed for every one else) catch seveal thousand pounds, come in sell to the buyer for $1.25 lb, turn around and pull his halibut longline, sell those hundreds of pounds for $2.50lb, tieup, go collect his BIA check, his SS check, his timber check, his welfare check and food stamps. Visit Aunt Petunia for his share of the million dollar sale of their yearly family whale hunt.

When he gets home, take all the money and stuff it into a dresser filled with $100 bills, take some and go get drunk, stoned or both for the rest of the month.

But remember he is a poor downtrodden Treaty indian, so the tribe needs to lobby for more money.


67 posted on 01/29/2012 6:25:11 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: Boogieman
If they are individual nations

The are individual nations with ‘special’ rights granted by the Constitution - rights which are theirs, not ours - they have rights, we have privileges, their rights are supreme, our privileges can be revoked at any given time. Thus Spake SCOTUS.

68 posted on 01/29/2012 6:35:00 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: dsc

How does the Toba bottleneck connect with this?

-

That eruption happened 74,000 years ago, which was very ancient history by 15,000 BC., the period under discussion. Any putative connection is moot.

What the genetic structure of pre-Toba humans was, no one knows since they are all dead, and all humans today are descended from the handful of survivors. Or so the theory goes.


69 posted on 01/29/2012 6:45:16 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: Revolting cat!

Now it all starts making sense.

Es[pecially if you know that Russia once owned both California and Alaska...


70 posted on 01/29/2012 6:48:19 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: blam

Seems like a good time to update the ping message over in that topic.


71 posted on 01/29/2012 9:06:29 AM PST by SunkenCiv (FReep this FReepathon!)
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To: PIF; dsc
Late Pleostocene Human Population Bottlenecks. . . (Toba)

The evidence from the Toba eruption indicates that the world's population of Modern Man was reduced to a total of around 10,000 adults.

72 posted on 01/29/2012 10:23:13 AM PST by blam
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for the ping. So, how did they get to South America? Did they walk the length of two continents?


73 posted on 01/29/2012 11:34:07 AM PST by zot
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To: 1010RD
"Great catch and good comment. Any floating piece of wood would teach the lesson effectively."

There's not much wood available in those areas aside from the occasional piece of driftwood, but I'm sure if they could make spears and arrows, they could cobble together a boat. Walrus and seal haul out on the Russian coast as well as Alaskan, so their hides would have been seen as a resource at a very early stage. In place of wood, traditional umiats contained whalebone frames. Walking on the ice in the winter is an art. Eskimo have numerous words for "snow" and they would be adept at reading conditions.

74 posted on 01/29/2012 11:46:50 AM PST by redhead (, , , comedian)
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To: Texan5; Bellflower
Thanks!

Sounds like your cousin's husband would be a kindred spirit to the old professor I studied under. His name was Edward Milligan and he had been adopted into the Dakota tribe. He published under the title Historic Migration of North American Indian Tribes and his work was largely pooh-poohed by the experts, many of them for allegedly superficial reasons like Prof. Milligan's imperfect grammar in writing.

His most memorable statement was squarely aimed against some of his critics who still contend all original Native American migration was over the Bering Strait land bridge. The Prof. pointed out that every other civilization built their greatest cities near where they first entered the continent, then more rudimentary dwellings as they moved further away. "Why," asked the professor, "should only America be the opposite?" The greatest evidence of civilization are concentrated between Peru and Central Mexico. Northern Mexico and the American southwest still have some fairly impressive but less developed evidence of civilization. But as you move into Northern California and up the Pacific Northwest to the Bering Straight, evidence of even rudimentary civilizations grow even more sparse. You can't dismiss it by climate alone because at least the southern portion of the Pacific Northwest has a climate far milder than the mountains of Peru where these ancient people thrived.

75 posted on 01/29/2012 12:49:37 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: PIF
Your example, while exaggerated, is also funny.

But at least give Indians credit for knowing that the key to maintaining the cash flow is to restrict numbers by definition. If you can't prove x% of tribal blood in a given tribe, you are out of luck like me. Even if the sum total of d% of tribe A, e% of tribe B and f% of tribe C exceeds the x%.

It is a glorious little scam. Most tribes will allow some reciprocity, but usually only when it is necessary to maintain some political clout or tribal recognition.

The "Hispanic" definition, on the other hand, works to pump up numbers and political clout, even through the bloodline may be totally different. Thus, "Hispanic" can take in both Berber and Basque (as long they lived in Spain at one time) as well as Argentinians of Italian descent, Puerto Ricans of African descent and Hondurans of Toltec descent.

If Native Americans tried to broaden our definition on a similar scale, the whole scam would collapse as there would be fewer goodies to go around. Just for fun, you should read up on the Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina sometime. They've been trying unsuccessfully for years to get tribal recognition. Not so they can tap into a cornucopia of government goodies. Most of them are entrepreneurial and conservative and just want to be able to use these treaties to tell the government to shove off.

76 posted on 01/29/2012 1:12:41 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: blam
Interesting stuff. I actually studied in Japan for several years and still maintain some rusty degree of fluency in the language. Not only are there similarities in the DNA and early pictographic writing systems, but also in the approach to conflict resolution systems and ancestral reverence which borders on worship.

Ben Nighthorse Campbell, a distant relative of mine and former U.S. Senator from Colorado, also studied in Japan and made many of the same observations.

77 posted on 01/29/2012 1:21:29 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Theoria

Or they merely vacationed there. 8)


78 posted on 01/29/2012 1:33:19 PM PST by wolfcreek (Perry to Obama: Adios, MOFO!)
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To: 1010RD

Cultures where there is little contact with outsiders either through trade, conquest or even being conquered stagnate. No new ideas, no reason to ever do things another way.


79 posted on 01/29/2012 2:56:30 PM PST by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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To: Vigilanteman

That was a good book...worth a read.


80 posted on 01/29/2012 3:57:49 PM PST by blam
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To: Vigilanteman

I’m going to look for that book/paper tomorrow-I’m very interested in reading it.

The trade routes of early people in part the Americas can be followed from the seacoasts in Mexico, too. You can visit the ruins of the port cities, then the ruins of the trading/distribution centers inland and leading north, with the places getting smaller and less refined as you go inland and farther away-sort of a western caravan route, except that the goods came over the sea from far places rather than overland from those places.

If they traded the same way as people did later on, the best stuff-exotic luxury goods and such-was probably offered first in the costal and other big market centers for maximum profit and already traded out by the time the traders reached what passed for the frontier in that age. They probably loaded their pack animals with hard-to-get simple treats like cloth made of something softer than rough wool, finer animal skins, better tools and inexpensive decorative items for the homesteaders. There was no paleoindian/preclassical equivalent of the Sears catalog back then, after all...


81 posted on 01/29/2012 4:33:55 PM PST by Texan5 ("You've got to saddle up your boys, you've got to draw a hard line"...)
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To: Godebert

Woah! They even used teepees.


82 posted on 01/29/2012 4:34:25 PM PST by madison10
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To: Godebert

Whoa! They even used teepees.


83 posted on 01/29/2012 4:35:02 PM PST by madison10
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To: central_va
Well, the Saqqaq, from Greenland; their closest living relatives are the Chukchis, people who live at the easternmost tip of Siberia!.
84 posted on 01/29/2012 6:12:24 PM PST by Theoria (Rush Limbaugh: Ron Paul sounds like an Islamic terrorist)
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To: Theoria
The Y DNA male haplogroup Q, is the majority Y male haplogroup in all of the Americas. The Altai Mountain area has been pegged as the origin of the Q's. A small amount of Q's can be found sprinkled around Pakistan, and stretching on into areas of Europe. China, Mongolia,and other oriental areas are mostly different Y DNA haplogroups than Q, but traces of Q are within. The Sindhis and the Hazars carry a percentage of the Y Q haplogroup, as do 5% of Ashkenazi Jews. There is ongoing debate & research about the latter. Khazar kingdom, Silk Road, etc.
85 posted on 01/29/2012 9:40:14 PM PST by Swede Girl
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To: PIF

Sorry, but I don’t see how the reduction of the entire human population to 10,000 could possibly be moot.


86 posted on 01/29/2012 11:38:45 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

What happened 60,000 years before the period under didcussion is moot. Do you have any idea how long 60,000 years is? The entirety of our known civilization only goes back a mere 8,000 years.

Whatever genes existed in the pre-Toba population which do not exist now is unknown. Those putative missing genes are just that: speculative. They make no difference to human evolution. Moot.

And 10,000 survivors is a rather high number, the actual number may be only 2,000. The Late Pleistocene was a rough time for humanity.


87 posted on 01/30/2012 4:50:32 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: PIF

“They make no difference to human evolution. Moot.”

Perhaps we’re quibbling over the definition of the word “moot.”

A dieback in the human population to 10,000, or 2,000, cannot possibly be irrelevant to human evolution.


88 posted on 01/30/2012 12:06:42 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: muawiyah
4 posted on Friday, January 27, 2012 10:36:25 AM by muawiyah: “The Altai region is probably the ancestral home to vast numbers of Chinese and Japanese, Philippinos, Polynesians, Eskimo, etc. This is not news.”

Probably add Koreans to that.

I don't have internet links immediately available, but I understand that Navajo is the modern language most closely related to Korean, with much more distant relationships to Finnish and Hungarian.

The assumption is different groups of people emigrated from the same area of central Siberia, with some ending up on the Korean peninsula, others crossing the Bering Strait to North America, and still others emigrating west to become Finns and Magyars.

89 posted on 01/30/2012 1:21:59 PM PST by darrellmaurina
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To: dsc

A dieback in the human population to 10,000, or 2,000, cannot possibly be irrelevant to human evolution.

Well yes it is - if humans evolve from what we are now, it will be from the genes we now have. Those genes which were lost in Toba don’t count - they are gone. Those lost genes cannot effect our future evolution.

For all we know if Toba had not happened we could all be morons now ... oh wait....


90 posted on 01/30/2012 2:27:04 PM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: darrellmaurina
We know from history that plenty of Mongols went West far enough to heavily influence Hungary, Estonia and Finland. However, they left much more of their language behind than they did their genes.

There are a lot of theories about how that happened. One is that the native languages in the prehistoric period (in that part of the world) were actually ancestral to the Turkish language(s) that were spoken by later Eastern invaders.

What to look for in the future as we learn more and more about this phenomenon ~ could be the spread of the X-Factor DNA sequence. This is a DNA sequence that acts more or less as a bar-code for the Sa'ami. People who descend from the Sa'ami ~ a people who moved out of the Western European Ice Age "refugia" ~ of about 14,000 years ago, or MORE, have this sequence.

So far the Fulbe, Berber, Yakuts, Sa'ami, (lots of Finns and Norse), Iroquois, Chippewa and Cherokee have a large percentage of their number who have this sequence.

It is known to have originated among the Sa'ami and spread to the other groups.

91 posted on 01/30/2012 2:56:13 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: SuzyQue

They didn’t replace the indigeous population. Else their descendants wouldn’t have the X-Factor gene sequence.


92 posted on 01/30/2012 3:07:38 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Mu - say what?


93 posted on 01/30/2012 5:14:19 PM PST by SuzyQue (Don't believe everything you think.)
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To: Theoria
Native Americans actually came from a tiny mountain region in Siberia....

If'n they're from Siberia, you can't really call them 'Native' Americans, can you?
94 posted on 01/30/2012 5:19:16 PM PST by rottndog (Be Prepared for what's coming AFTER America....)
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To: PIF

“For all we know if Toba had not happened we could all be morons now ... oh wait....”

Yuk, yuk.

Or if it had not happened we could all have Stephen Hawkings’ brains and Baywatch good looks.

My point is that it almost certainly had an effect.

You, for the first time, mention “future” evolution. Yes, pre-Toba genes are irrelevant to *future* evolution.

What I was wondering about was what the effects might have been of reducing the gene pool to 2,000 (or whatever the correct number is).


95 posted on 01/30/2012 5:52:44 PM PST by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Trillian

Remember me telling you that many words in their language were pronounced and meant the same as those of the Korean & Chinese languages....

I wonder what the results were from the kenewick man?


96 posted on 01/30/2012 10:04:58 PM PST by Conservative4Life (Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. Elections have consequences.)
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To: Trillian

Also, what about those rumers of Ghengis Kahn (Jinjis kahhn as said by john Kerry who served in Vienam) gallavanting around the world and spreading his seeds of love?


97 posted on 01/30/2012 10:08:58 PM PST by Conservative4Life (Those who don't learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. Elections have consequences.)
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To: dsc

What I was wondering about was what the effects might have been of reducing the gene pool ...

What was the effect on your personal evolution of that toy your parents didn’t buy when you were three years old?

Same question put another way. One cannot know the effects of something that no longer exists, if it still existed.

One of the possible effects of the gene pool reduction is one bilion people pray 5 times a day to a rock facing toward a certain direction ...


98 posted on 01/31/2012 7:25:10 AM PST by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now it is your turn ...)
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To: muawiyah

Thank you for the info on Asian migrations...


99 posted on 03/13/2012 11:27:25 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
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