Phoenix Police: Officers' bulletproof vest failed test

CBS5AZ,COM ^ | Feb 17, 2012 | Jadiann Thompson

[BOBWADE]

PHOENIX (CBS5) - Authorities in Phoenix are asking for immediate action after they found that hundreds of protective vests worn by Valley cops may not stop bullets.

Phoenix Police officer Anthony Daley, 30, was seriously injured when a bullet pierced through the bottom edge of his ballistic vest in November. A similar vest was tested Thursday and the results released today.

[BOBWADE]

Looks like there are some defective vests out there. Make sure your local LE is aware. Any freepers currently wearing this body armour? Better get it checked.

[BOBWADE]

http://www.armorreport.com/
another story on the same subject.

[mosaicwolf]

What kind of ordinance was used at the scene or during the tests. This makes a huge difference.

[SWAMPSNIPER]

"Bullet proof" is a misnomer, they are only bullet resistant in varying degrees.

I didn't see anything in the article about what round of ammo was involved.

[momtothree]

“what round of ammo was involved”.

I am not that knowledgeable... isn’t there “armor piercing” bullets? (I thought I have read articles about bad guys using this type of bullet in order to kill law enforcement if they wanted/had to).

[PapaBear3625]

Their armor came from “Custom Armor Technologies”. It may have been certified by NIJ, but there’s something to having cops buy their own armor instead of being issued one from lowest bidder.

[riverrunner]

Thats what is missing what cailber and the round that was used most any center fire rifle and some pistol rounds will defeat a lot of soft armor.

A hit on the every edge could just fold around the vest and continue on. Not enough information here.

[mazda77]

Howdy Sniper!

I had some dealings with BAE who also make vests and there is a testing procedure they use supplied by the DoD. I would assume anyone who would have been in charge of the procurement knew of these standards and insomuch made sure the appropriate testing verifications were given. That is not to say they tested a good one and then sent out lots of bad ones to make a buck.

It is interesting that the manufacturer is no longer in business and the seller is no longer in the “Valley” (Valley of the Sun). Sounds like a scam to me. One would have thought with the stake at hand, the Phoenix Police Department would have conducted their own tests according to the same DoD protocols.

[BOBWADE]

I thought one of the article I read said it was a .40 cal. I will google it.

[BOBWADE]

more info here:

http://www.azplea.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=541:plea-comments-on-ballistic-vest-failure-

[SWAMPSNIPER]

The vests commonly worn by LEOs are only good against rimfire ammo and most common pistol rounds. There are a couple of high velocity pistol rounds that will penetrate.

It's not a matter of "armor piercing" bullets. Centerfire hunting rounds are not armor piercing by design but the LEO vests won't stop them.

This issue has been clouded by a bunch of made up terms designed to support the gun control movement. For a while they were trying to ban any round which would penetrate a standard vest. That would include most hunting ammo.

If you want to see a vest fail dramatically shoot it with a broadhead arrow from a hunting bow or crossbow, they go through like a hot knife through butter.

[BOBWADE]

One of the articles I googled was talking about a new kind of armour. Is this body armour any good? The video looks promising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CgHZY2oZTw&feature=youtu.be

[BOBWADE]

I had hear that and wondered if it was true. Its amazing how fragile the ceramic plates are yet they transfer the impact and stop a bullet.

[PapaBear3625]

On a cop forum there was talk in 2005 about users being unimpressed with the product.

In your link, we have

…The vests in question were made by Custom Armor Technologies. That company is no longer in business. …Diamondback Tactical supplied the vest, but the company has since moved out of the Valley.

I'm going to guess that, as "Custom Technologies" went under increasing financial pressure, their final batches may not have been subjected to the best quality control. I would not be surprised to learn that, after their prototypes passed NIJ tests, they subcontracted actual manufacture to China.

The REAL culprit here, who will never be examined, is the police dept purchasing unit who bought "hundreds" of these vests, yet never thought to perform acceptance testing by taking one or two out of each purchased batch to the range for target practice.

[butterdezillion]

The guns that Eric Holder sold to the drug cartels - would they pierce the armor of, say, Sheriff Joe, his police officers, and his posse?

[SWAMPSNIPER]

The 7.62X39 round the AK47 clones shoot is about the same as a 30/30 Winchester. The LEO vests aren't designed for that much power.

The whole thing boils down to doing something about the barbarians that are piling up deeper every day, not more regulation of guns and ammo.

[BOBWADE]

Yet another fine result from the low-bid contracts.
I was watching that video link on the new Terminator armor. Now that is some good armour!

[hiredhand]

As best I know, NO manufacture will guarantee bullet-proof. Not to mention that unless the LEO is SRT the kevlar is most likely rated TL-IIA due to cost. TL-IIA is the minimum standard for most of the departments we work with. LOTS of rounds slice through that stuff like it was warm butter! We shot up an unserviceable IIA vest here one day. It stopped 9mm FMJs pretty well. Ditto for .45ACP FMJs. But Russian 7.62x25s went RIGHT through it and we had it snugged onto a big bag of sand to simulate a torso! I've got a buddy here who's a "big wig" in the DoD/LEO kevlar business. He's a chemical engineer and designs the material which goes into the vests as well as the vests. You should hear his speech on the definition of bullet proof. He's the whole reason that all of us extremists ditched all the IIA stuff we had and upgraded. :-)

Most people don't know this (you probably DO), but broadhead arrows shot from a good compound bow are hell on TL-IIA kevlar!

[smokingfrog]

Investigators later learned that one of the rounds fired by Sandoval (.40 Cal) penetrated and punched through the Kevlar material at the lower edge ofc Daley's Level IIIA ballistic vest approx. 3/8" from the outer edge.

NIJ test data does not address impacts that occur within 76mm or 3" of the panel edge or within 51mm or 2" of a prior ballistic impact.

[momtothree]

Thank you for your knowledge on this! I had no idea that a broadhead arrow would penetrate a vest. In short, the vest is probably suppose to help with some situations; however, I am thinking no vest will protect 100% of the time.

[Suz in AZ]

The Bourque Terminator Fat Boys stopped 7.62x51 FMJ NATO rounds in NIJ testing. (all six, all plates in testing)

Maybe Terminator is a better choice now.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120214005775/en/Bourque-Industries-Level-III-Body-Armor-NIJ

[righttackle44]

Wait. Wait. Wait. You expect journalism school graduates to understand weapons calibrations and ammunitions? Their education is pretty well limited school lunch menus, whether or not to use a comman in a series, how often to say, :"How do you feel?"

Oh, and how to harass local law enforcement.

[dadgum]

There is a new armor technology that just recently received NIJ certification. It is based on proprietary process of alloying aluminum with carbon nanotubes. The product is far superior to any thing on the market. It stops EVERY thing. The army did some tests with the plates - from 9mm to 50 cal to C4 in pipe bombs. I will try to get the links up. If I fail, then PLEASE, someone with HTML skills, help me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CgHZY2oZTw&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K-FAqK6A2s&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qppt_d17Pcc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihAvwwSs-c4

[hiredhand]

Yep. I've got a set here that stops 7.62x51. Before we acquired it, we got to shoot one up and we KNEW exactly what it would stop, and what it wouldn't. We also got the ceramic plates that install into pockets on the front and back (makes it HEAVY) that are reported to stop AP. We tested a couple of borderline-serviceable plates with 5.56mm NATO AP and it stopped them well enough.

My buddy in the business tells me that there are issues of strength over time, and care during use is IMPORTANT. He said that this is a HUGE factor in stopping ability over time. :-)

[Suz in AZ]

I’ve seen a helmet made with this stuff and it had been shot with a .50cal and there was barely a dent! I saw another plate that had been hit with 60 rounds (not sure of the caliber) with no penetration. Totally amazing. I think that once it gets traction, a lot of companies will go out of business. Hence, there might be a lot of resistance too.

[DainBramage]

Water effects the strength too I believe. Not the plates but the material itself.

[raybbr]

LEO

Huh?

SRT

Huh?

TL-IIA

Huh?

FMJ

Huh?

DoD/LEO

Huh?

Anagrams - not just for breakfast...

[G Larry]

Given that is failed a follow-up test, it doesn’t matter what happened in the field.

[BOBWADE]

Cool vids

[hiredhand]

THAT is impressive!

[2CAVTrooper]

I’ve seen a helmet made with this stuff and it had been shot with a .50cal and there was barely a dent!

You get hit in the noggin with a 50 cal, it doesn’t matter if the helmet stops the round because the impact force alone will more than likely snap your neck.

[Still Thinking]

What kind of ordinance was used at the scene or during the tests. This makes a huge difference.

I HATE standing there in a "bullet-proof" vest having laws thrown at me. I'd almost rather people shoot at me.

[Tax-chick]

Probably large, three-ring binders of ordinance. Better wear your football helmet to the gun range!

Our legislators (at all levels) couldn’t be more excessively verbose if they were paid by the word, like Charles Dickens.

[hiredhand]

Oops...sorry... translation follows. :-) -

LEO = Law Enforcement Officer

SRT = Special Response Team (a.k.a. - SWAT)

TL-IIA - Threat Level Two Alpha. This is a strength rating for personal ballistic armor given by the National Institute of Justice. TL-IIA is considered the minimum.

FMJ = Full Metal Jacket. FMJ is a projectile (bullet) that is usually a core of more dense metal (steel or lead) which is wrapped by a jacket of copper in such a way to fully cover it.

DoD/LEO = Department of Defense, and Law Enforcement Officers.

[Still Thinking]

I am not that knowledgeable... isn’t there “armor piercing” bullets? (I thought I have read articles about bad guys using this type of bullet in order to kill law enforcement if they wanted/had to).

Yes, and those would certainly penetrate, but even that's not necessary with the type vest we're probably talking about here. Just about any rifle round will penetrate low end vests. They only offer some protection against low-energy/velocity handgun rounds.

[hiredhand]

Yes. According to my friend you're correct. He told me to try not to get it wet. But he said that if I did, to remove the kevlar from the carrier and dry it out, but do NOT put it in the dryer and do NOT expose it to direct sunlight.

[Suz in AZ]

I get what you are saying, but what impressed me was that it didn’t go through the material. I’m sure there are uses for something like that!

[RedMDer]

All contributions are for the
Current Quarter Expenses.

[Still Thinking]

Our legislators (at all levels) couldn’t be more excessively verbose if they were paid by the word, like Charles Dickens.

Sad but true!

[Tax-chick]

But on topic, I’d be a little concerned about this situation, if I were a Phoenix police officer or married to one.

[raybbr]

Oops...sorry... translation follows. :-) -

TX

(Thanks)

:)

[Still Thinking]

Oh, yeah, most certainly. The article sounds as if the procurement and verification of the vests had some questionable aspects.

[Still Thinking]

I get what you are saying, but what impressed me was that it didn’t go through the material. I’m sure there are uses for something like that!

Would no doubt make good vehicular armor, for example.

[BOBWADE]

One of the youtube videos had some references to ied capabilities. Sounds like some promising technology.

[SWAMPSNIPER]

No one could carry the weight and bulk of a bullet “proof”. vest.

[gundog]

You’re remembering the Ted Kennedy definition of “armor piercing.” Any centerfire rifle round will penetrate typical police armor. It was designed to protect them from the ammo they are most likely to encounter...their own...9 mm hollow points.

[Squantos]

Ask yer buddy what he thinks of the new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff.

Also I have a SOV-2000 concealable issued from pinnacle armor. They want to give me new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff from american body armor. I like the SOV 2000.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin/

Yes agree on the knife / arrow etc vs body armor.

[Squantos]

Ask yer buddy what he thinks of the new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff.

Also I have a SOV-2000 concealable issued from pinnacle armor. They want to give me new spectra IIIA DOJ rated stuff from american body armor. I like the SOV 2000.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin/

Yes agree on the knife / arrow etc vs body armor.

[hiredhand]

Actually, he speaks quite highly of the Dragon Skin! He tried to explain what makes it different, but he's a chemist and we had trouble tracking him. He's "supposed" to bring one over so we can at least check it out. :-) He usually brings the new stuff once DoD gets serious about considering it. He DID mention that it's EXPENSIVE.

I'll ask him about the Spectra and see what he says! :-)