Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Vanity-Does Modern Tech Used in Auto Manufacturing Push the 100,000 mile Emotional Threshold higher?
NLZ ^ | April 9 2012 | NLZ

Posted on 04/09/2012 4:05:36 PM PDT by NoLibZone

What's your sense on the state of modern auto and motor plant technology?

Does CAD, modern tech, etc push the emotional 100,000 mile threshold, to a new higher number?


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: automanufacturing; autos; cars
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051 next last

1 posted on 04/09/2012 4:05:47 PM PDT by NoLibZone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

all I know is I’m trying to get more out of my Tahoe. It’s at 148k and a little rough, but still OK.


2 posted on 04/09/2012 4:11:35 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Planned obsolescence.


3 posted on 04/09/2012 4:11:40 PM PDT by mnehring
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

My 1992 Accord has 280,000. Just about original everything. New blower motor and cosmetics. I think Japan forced that threshold long ago.


4 posted on 04/09/2012 4:16:21 PM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mariner

02 Yukon SLT 170K and going strong. All drive train parts original. Rough but I got 4 kids. It is a horse.


5 posted on 04/09/2012 4:16:44 PM PDT by smaug6 (We can't afford to be innocent!! Stand up and face the enemy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I buy or collect cars because they are cool or fast. I couldn’t care less about the mileage on a clock. If you keep them maintained and you didn’t cheap out and buy something disposable like a Hyundai Craptacular, you should be able to do over 200K miles on a vehicle no sweat.


6 posted on 04/09/2012 4:17:03 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

What is the Emotional Mile Threshold?

My old ‘87 Toyota Vanwagon turned 500K miles before I sent her to the parts yard. Loved that van and wish I had another one like it.


7 posted on 04/09/2012 4:18:00 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: eyedigress

My Townie had 325k on the original power train. 18 months after I sold it, I hear it’s still running fine.


8 posted on 04/09/2012 4:18:24 PM PDT by steve8714 (The answer, surprisingly, is Carnahan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

We got 300,000 miles out of our 1993 Volvo 850 so I’d say yes.


9 posted on 04/09/2012 4:19:35 PM PDT by MeganC (No way in Hell am I voting for Mitt Romney. Not now, not ever. Deal with it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lazlo in PA

That Hyundai would outlast a MOPAR or Gubmint Motors vehicle today.


10 posted on 04/09/2012 4:20:23 PM PDT by steve8714 (The answer, surprisingly, is Carnahan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I don’t know¿

In times past I got a new car every couple of years. the cars were at about 80k and probably in great shape.

Now I’m driving a 2007 Ford 500 with 136k miles. Still drives great and while I think of getting another new car(Taurus) I kinda just don’t care right now for some reason.


11 posted on 04/09/2012 4:21:22 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I was at 212K with my 2000 Nissan Frontier, and fully expected it to go trouble free to 300K. But two winters ago we had one 12” snow after another and since it was 2WD I reached the end of my rope on putting chains on. Traded it in on a 2006 Frontier NISMO 4X4 with 29K and that’s now at almost 80K. I’ll drive that one until it dies.

There’s a guy at work with a 1985 Nissan pickup with almost 500K on it.


12 posted on 04/09/2012 4:25:24 PM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MeganC

I got 230K or so out an 89 240SX that was bought with 86K on the clock. Those last few K were rough ones. The rack was acting up and it would jump out of 5th every so often.


13 posted on 04/09/2012 4:27:28 PM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

The real key is to completely lose the “emotional threshold”. I did that years ago; stopped turning over cars every couple of years or so. I currently own a 2000 Saturn SL1 as my run-around-town car(under-powered piece of crap but it runs decently and is dirt cheap to own) and a ‘93 Chevy Suburban monster (350 V-8) with a quarter-million miles on it....still running strong; it’s my people or stuff hauler.

I can afford pretty much whatever I want, but I keep these two. Hell, they’re LONG since paid for and get me from point A to point B.


14 posted on 04/09/2012 4:30:17 PM PDT by RightOnline (I am Andrew Breitbart!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I have 250+K on my Subaru Forester and about 240K on my Ford F150 so 100K really doesn’t excite me.


15 posted on 04/09/2012 4:32:52 PM PDT by Library Lady
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

My 2000 Crown Vic just hit 205K and broke the first part that stopped it cold ,, LF lower ball joint ... It’s on my bench right now ... I think the clamp on it is about right ... 24” breaker bar with 3’ pipe turned til the chrome started flaking on the breaker! THEN I put a pound of dry ice on the broken stub. If it doesn’t come out I’ll have to get a new spindle.


16 posted on 04/09/2012 4:40:26 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
The last 2 cars I drove went 200,000 miles +before I turned them in. 100k is just getting started for Me.

CC

17 posted on 04/09/2012 4:41:09 PM PDT by Celtic Conservative (Q: how did you find America? A: turn left at Greenland)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: steve8714

Excellent for such a large machine. I take care of this car myself. It is still pretty tight but front suspension work is on the horizon.


18 posted on 04/09/2012 4:56:32 PM PDT by eyedigress ((zOld storm chaser from the west)/?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: steve8714
We will have to wait 10 or 15 years to see what is left on the road. Right now, I will take anything with a Chevy or Ford V8 over any of the overseas stuff. How many of these do you see around anymore?

I still see plenty of 80's vintage Caprices around.

19 posted on 04/09/2012 5:04:37 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I’ve put about 750,000 on my Yugo GT, and I’ve never even had to open the hood.


20 posted on 04/09/2012 5:10:49 PM PDT by Fresh Wind ('People have got to know whether or not their president is a crook.' Richard M. Nixon)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Neidermeyer

LOL. Geez. Your cheaper than I am. I had the same issue on my ‘98 Town Car a couple years ago. You can rent for cheap a ball joint press at Auto Zone and save yourself all the hillbilly tech. Let me tell you, Ford really put those lower ball joints in there. They don’t come out easy.


21 posted on 04/09/2012 5:11:50 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
the emotional 100,000 mile threshold, to a new higher number?

Huh?

22 posted on 04/09/2012 5:13:09 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Impala64ssa; bajabaja; carriage_hill; AFreeBird; rightly_dividing; Charles Martel; Clay Moore; ...
Motorhead, Collector Car Junkie, Speed Freak, Automotive Related Ping List.

Freepmail "Lazlo in PA" to be added or removed.

23 posted on 04/09/2012 5:13:55 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: eyedigress
My 1992 Accord has 280,000.

My 1995 Del Sol has 211,000..rust is the only problem now.

24 posted on 04/09/2012 5:15:40 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Fresh Wind

750,000 what?


25 posted on 04/09/2012 5:18:29 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Hell my 2000 Grand Voyager has 210,000 miles and still running


26 posted on 04/09/2012 5:19:49 PM PDT by Gone_Postal
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
My Nissan PU has over 300k on it and is running great. I know two people with the same truck that have over 900k, one over 1m and it is on the highway everyday as a oversize escort vehicle.

If it won't go well over 200k, it was a waste of time and money, these days.

27 posted on 04/09/2012 5:32:57 PM PDT by rightly_dividing (ICor. 15:1-4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: smokingfrog; Fresh Wind

The Yugoslavians had a different odometer on the Yugo. It measured feet. I can’t see how a car that had it’s front suspension welded in make it that far in miles.


28 posted on 04/09/2012 5:37:40 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Motor oil is so much better than it was 20-30 years ago and that’s a large part of the reason that 300k is the new 100k.


29 posted on 04/09/2012 5:40:56 PM PDT by Sparticus (Tar and feathers for the next dumb@ss Republican that uses the word bipartisanship.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RightOnline

...lose the “emotional threshold”.

I’ve viewed all vehicles as an “appliance”, keep it in mechanically/physically top shape, and it pays huge dividends. My 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo is pristine and has 148k on it and it’ll go another 150k, as my other 3 have over the past 35yrs.


30 posted on 04/09/2012 5:49:56 PM PDT by carriage_hill (I'd vote for a "orange juice can", before 0bummer&HisRegimeFromHell, gets another 4yrs. Can-> later.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

At 300,000 miles on my 88 Supra Turbo the engine still purred like the day i bought her.

I miss that car.


31 posted on 04/09/2012 5:51:44 PM PDT by mowowie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

Most cars have only one real thresh hold, and it’s not determined simply by miles driven.

A car’s threshhold is really up to the owner - do they believe its a good investment (for them), and do they desire, to continue good quality of care of some present vehicle, or do they want a different one.

The more they think of a vehicle as just transportation, and not a social or financial “investment” (”I should sell it while I can still get something for it”), the more they are inclined to keep it and keep it well, for a long time.


32 posted on 04/09/2012 6:20:58 PM PDT by Wuli
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone; All
I want to come at this from a different perspective than most replies to date.

It is true that cars today, for the most part are of far better quality, and can easily go 80k if maintained regularly, and often much longer. However, for most manufacturers, once you get past 60-80K, the recommended maintenance becomes much more expensive...and at the same time as the value of the car is dropping.

If nothing major goes wrong, you'll be OK, and come out ahead financially. However, if something major does go wrong after 4 -5 years..unless you have considerable mechanical ability, and the necessary tools, then your car is essentially worthless, and you are faced with having to put several thousand $$ into something that has no value, and then the very next day, somthing else, completely unrelated, and very expensive, could also go wrong.

The average car of the last 3-4 years has MORE computing power than the Apollo space capsule..and you can't fix them..you just have to suck it up and put in a new one..and shall we talk about catalytic converters, or struts, or replacing calipers after maybe 5 sets of brake pads..

I'm just saying that an argument can be made for getting a new car every three to four years..yes..you have a payment, but you have basically no service costs....anything goes wrong, it's fixed no charge

33 posted on 04/09/2012 6:29:01 PM PDT by ken5050 (The ONLY reason to support Mitt: The Mormon Tabernacle Choir will appear at the WH each Christmas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sparticus; NoLibZone
Motor oil is so much better than it was 20-30 years ago and that’s a large part of the reason that 300k is the new 100k.

I think electronic fuel injection and modern high-power ignition systems have more to do with it than the oil. With the carburetor's near-total demise, piston rings and cylinder walls no longer get washed-down by unburned fuel to the same degree as in the past.

Oil stays cleaner, bearings last longer, engines need very infrequent tune-ups. Apart from the oil and filter, maintenance is down to an occasional can of fuel injector cleaner in the tank.

The "threshold" is now parts availability. It helps a lot to own something that has some degree of "enthusiast" following; that tends to mean there is broader aftermarket support for parts long after the manufacturer has written off the vehicle as obsolete.

34 posted on 04/09/2012 6:43:25 PM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I’d guess that running synthetic motor oil starting from the very first oil change, might contribute more than any other factor.

And how one drives.

Stupid driving can demolish any car in the first 50K.

Drive at least someone defensively, don’t let the oil run out, keep it changed (with synthetic you don’t even need to do so every 3000 miles) and you’re good.


35 posted on 04/09/2012 6:47:07 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Draft Palin VP!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Lazlo in PA

I AM using the rental ball joint press (p/n 27023 at autozone.. that’s where I rented this one)... it’s not moving... WITH the 5’ of bar AND the dry ice IT’S NOT MOVING.. if it hadn’t broken off it would be easier... but I just have the conical wedge in the knuckle/spindle and the ball which is free of it’s socket. The car did me a big favor though ... the joint failed turning into my driveway...


36 posted on 04/09/2012 6:58:35 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: Lazlo in PA

They don’t come out easy.
***************************************
The uppers were fine ,, bolt ins... no problem at all.

The “cup” on the lower came out of the “A” arm with just a few hammer blows..


37 posted on 04/09/2012 7:07:04 PM PDT by Neidermeyer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: smokingfrog

European car. It’s metric.

750,000 meters.


38 posted on 04/09/2012 7:11:48 PM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network (Draft Palin VP!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Neidermeyer

You should use heat to break a stuck part loose. Either an industrial hot air gun, or one of those propane torches.


39 posted on 04/09/2012 7:15:50 PM PDT by rottndog (Be Prepared for what's coming AFTER America....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: ken5050

The new lubricants are part of it... But there’s more to it. It’s the tighter machining tolerances, better materials, better science throughout. Pretty much anything made in the last ten years will last much, much longer than even the finest cars from 30 or 40 years ago. It used to be that 100,000 miles was about the end of life for most cars. Nowadays that’s literally -nothing-. A fairly recent vehicle with 150,000 miles can expect another 150,000 without a likely major service. No problem.

My 2006 Jeep Commander doesn’t even have it’s first major scheduled service until it hits 65,000 miles, and I’m not there yet. I have a 2000 Mustang GT that’s had a steady diet of synthetic oil and it still drives like the day I bought it new. No rattles. Still tight. Still a -whole- lot of fun.


40 posted on 04/09/2012 7:16:19 PM PDT by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone

I’ve seen over 400,000 miles from some Fords and Chryslers that used synthetic oil.


41 posted on 04/09/2012 7:21:32 PM PDT by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ramius

Most people have no idea of the manufacturing revolution that has occurred over the last 15-20 years. Incredibly accurate manufacturing machines combined with modern computerized engineering processes make far better parts that go into cars.

And then add to that modern quality control....ISO-9000 and such....it’s hard for a parts vendor to get away with making crap anymore.

So, yes, 100,000 miles for a new car, properly maintained, is barely broken in.


42 posted on 04/09/2012 7:29:58 PM PDT by rottndog (Be Prepared for what's coming AFTER America....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
The tolerances and lubricants are so much better than they were in times past that engines last longer.

We had a ‘94 Explorer that we sold at 250K that still did not burn oil. If you let it sit a few days, the mains would rumble for 2 seconds or so. I have no idea how good or bad it was taken care of for the first 90K of its life.

We sold the 03 Explorer with 170K and it too burned no oil.

I could not have fathomed such things in the ‘60’s or ‘70’s.

43 posted on 04/09/2012 7:32:41 PM PDT by Clay Moore (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Fresh Wind

“I’ve put about 750,000 on my Yugo GT, and I’ve never even had to open the hood.”

PM me when you get ready to sell it. I want to build a long wheelbase tube frame 500+ hp V8, tubbed, race car. I am shooting for the fastest Yugo on the planet. Maybe Paul Shanklin or Rush would sponsor me. (^;


44 posted on 04/09/2012 7:47:08 PM PDT by Clay Moore (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Lazlo in PA

1. I agree, that a car designed and built to be maintainable and to last, if well maintained, can last essentially forever. Imagine if cars were maintained like aircraft, where they would have true preventative maintenance. We would still have plenty of 1950’s cars on the street as daily drivers.

2. Take another look. Hyundai’s of 15 years ago were crap. The last 2-3 years of models are at or even beyond parity with the Japanese, who have rested on their laurels for a LONG time (particularly Honda). People still buying them are buying on inertia and habit.

3. On modern cars, the electronics are going to be killers for collectors of the future (if any) or for long-term ownership. LCD displays have a very finite lifetime, whether or not they are actually used, and they can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to tool.

By the way, my cars are 26 and 27 years old, respectively, one of which I drive every day. There is virtually nothing on either that I can’t repair, rebuild, or replace.


45 posted on 04/09/2012 7:53:38 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: The Antiyuppie

When I speak of maintenance, I am not speaking of motor swaps. Cars from the 50’s were good for about 60K because they didn’t have simple things like oil filters. I also talk to folks that say the lack of a crankcase ventilation resulted in premature engine failures back then. I run a ‘76 Old Custom Cruiser during the summer with almost 200K on the clock and tow a 4000 lb pop up a couple weeks a year too on the same engine it came with. I just do routine maintenance on that.

As for the new Hyundais being a great car, that remains to be seen. I remember all my buddies telling me how great their Jap cars were 20 years ago and couldn’t understood why I was running Olds Deltas and Buick Park Avenues. My cars looked like new when I sold them while theirs rusted away around them. You don’t know if cars are any good until you have them on the road for years.

Just for fun, I typed in Hyundai 1990-99 into an ebay search to see how many are for sale. 7 cars. Did the same for Chevy. 650+ for sale. We will have to readdress your theory 10 years from now to see if you are right.

As for the electronics on cars, I ran across a K-Car based New Yorker, an ‘87 that was a roach, for sale that still had the crappy digital dash that still worked and the talking lady telling that the door was Ajar still spoke. Hard to say when that stuff will give out. Those cars were real junk.


46 posted on 04/09/2012 8:50:00 PM PDT by Lazlo in PA (Now living in a newly minted Red State.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: Lazlo in PA

The 80’s/90’s “green” dashes were low voltage vacuum fluorescent, and those will last longer than LCD’s, particularly in an automotive environment. The full-color LCD displays of today...not so much...


47 posted on 04/09/2012 9:16:56 PM PDT by The Antiyuppie ("When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: Ramius
Don't disagree with anything you wrote, and I'm about to find out if it's true. I have a 2007 Hyundai Tucson..now has 75,000 miles on it..and I want to keep it for at least another 5 years.

I'd always get a new car every 3-4 years..was just easier, and simpler..and also, since back then, I wrote off a good part of the car for business..can't do that any more..as I'm retired.

But that's not the reason for wanting to keep this one. It's the base model..FWD..who needs 4WD in Florida?..and it has a 5 sp...which I love, and today is almost impossible to find. It's only a little 4 banger..but with the 5sp it has plenty of pep..moves out nicely..and I've been getting consistently 28-30 mph..combined city/highway.

The real reason is that the tailgate window opens seperately, which I love, and that I can just fit my kayak AND my racing bike inside..literally by a 1/4", and thus don't have to worry about racks, and more inportantly..stuff getting stolen..I looked at a whole buch of new models last year, and none can do that..and the ones that I found I couldn't get in a 5 0r 6 sp manual

I've always taken my cars to the dealer for service, according to the schedule, and this way, whenever I've had any problem, even after the warranty was expired, it's always been taken care of at no charge, or hardly anything..also, I've always kept records..so I know what the car cost me to service each year.. For the first 4 years..averaging 15k miles/year, it went in about every 4000 miles...and the total cost each year was less than $250. Once I hit 60k..the service costs went up, a lot, and plus disc brakes all around, and soon, I'll be looking at a second set of tires.. that's what I meant about forgoing those costs, and gettign a new one every 3-4 years..and having just the payment..

We'll see how it turns out...(g)

48 posted on 04/10/2012 1:50:19 PM PDT by ken5050 (The ONLY reason to support Mitt: The Mormon Tabernacle Choir will appear at the WH each Christmas)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: NoLibZone
The new scam is the automatic transmission. They tell you not to do anything, maintenance free for 100K miles. It's a joke. What happens is that the transmission will last that long - but not much longer. And by the way, there are NO MORE DIP STICKS in auto transmissions any more. So if you are a heretic and break the rules and get your transmission flushed, maybe every 30K, you have no way to check if the tech put enough cherry juice back in.

To me this is a huge scam.

49 posted on 04/10/2012 2:06:15 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mariner

i just rebuilt the Iron Duke 2500 CC engine for my Chevy S-10 at 200,000 miles.


50 posted on 04/11/2012 7:27:47 AM PDT by Rudder
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson