Skip to comments.When did the umps start NOT to require the 2nd baseman to touch the bag on a double play?
Posted on 04/30/2012 5:41:51 PM PDT by Pharmboy
I have noticed this for a LONG time, but I have never asked about it, nor have I ever seen it discussed.
I am watching my Mets against Houston, and the Astros have a man on first. Sharp grounder to third, and Wright backhands it and throws to Murphy at second, and Murphy is AT LEAST 1.5 feet off the bag when he catches it, wheels and throws to first; BUT the ump calls the Astro OUT at second.
When did this start??
They don’t really require the throw to first to beat the runner anymore, either.
First, in answer to your question, the practice began long, long ago. It’s one of the little things that makes baseball the best team sport ever invented. As long as the play is cleanly executed and not particularly close at 2nd, the runner is out. It has been that way for the 4+ decades I have been watching (and playing, and coaching) baseball.
Part of the reason is for the safety of the players. The runner, if he’s reasonably close to the second baseman or shortstop covering 2nd, is going to slide toward that player like a torpedo with his spikes in the air in an attempt to break up the play... even if he has to go somewhat out of the baseline to do so. Also, the defending player turning the double play needs a clear line for the throw to 1st, so he’s going to skip past the bag as quickly as possible to get that clear line and avoid the take-out slide. If he was forced to deliberately step on 2nd, he might (deliberately or not) throw the ball straight into the face of the oncoming runner. Oops.
The main thing is, everybody understands what’s going on with double plays; the informal “gentleman’s rule” for double plays is the same for everybody, and I have never seen anybody complain. Like I said, it’s one of those neat little eccentricities about baseball.
FRegards, and Go Phillies!
Let's go all the way and remove the bases completely and replace them with "vicinity circles." As long as the runner and fielder are in the "vicinity circle," it will count as if the fielder was on the "base."
Being on "base" can go the way of "dialing" a number on a phone or "taping" a movie.
We still use the words, but we forget why.
Hey, wooden bats are just fine. They just make the barrels too thin these days, IMO. Waste of time and wood.
You’re a moron.
I think you forgot the little sarcasm thingy, but it does look like that sometimes!
Get a life.
How about telling us what you do in your spare time, including what you watch on TV, and let us decide whether you need to "get a life".
When one of my daughter's played in the 4-6 year old Soccer league, they had smaller goals with no goalie. Those games were really funny to watch. My 5 year old that weighed 40 pounds and was 3 foot something (really small) was the only one to get a red card the whole season because she took a kid out doing a softball slide so he couldn't kick it into the goal. The boy was ok, so it was hard not to laugh with everyone else trying not to also. She kept asking “What did I do wrong? You don't give us a goalie what was I to do?” they explained it to her and it's on her highlight reel!
“Vicinity Circles”! That’s funny!
Therefore, umpires do NOT call 2nd base outs because of JOBS!
Big effing deal!
I pay more in taxes than most people make. So topper.
You need to cool it. This isn’t a community that tolerates that kind of outburst(unless you have turrets?)
Talking Baseball is as American as commenting on Apple Pie and God.
And why is a ball that hits the foul line or foul pole a fair ball? (needs to be renamed to the fair line or fair pole)
Check back through his short history.
Does not play well with others and gets validation through confrontation and friction.
Oh and I’m guessing a RomneyBot....
Now that there’s funny...
Oh man. This guy isn’t gonna make it.
Hey, I had some Balvenie Caribbean the other night. Delish!
Found out they also have a rum. Gonna try Friday and will report back.
As an aside, I went to a San Jose Sabercats game a few years back. I was a little amused by the whole thing and wasn’t imagining I could find it interesting.
My thought was interrupted by football thrown directly at my head When out of no where a player appears in front of me catches the ball, just as I was standing to catch it.
Then BLAMO!!! He get crushed against the boards!!!
I swear I heard his breath leave him and WHACK of the boards sounded like a bunch of plastic being dropped on a sheet of plywood with 185 pounds in it.
Guy looks right at me as this happens and then a little blood comes out of his mouth.
I never screamed so wild eyed in my life.
Thanks — I was hoping someone would at least take note of the effort into which I placed the massive sarcasm toward the OP (or SP, I guess)..
Just plain funny.
I carry a scar on my ankle where I took a spike while completing a double play.
Nice to hear about your daughter, of course, I am sure that you are not one of those parents that ever yells at the umpire about his ever shrinking strike zone. :)
I actually wasn’t being sarcastic at all. What did we all learn growing up? A tie goes to the base runner, right? I would submit that there are many times when the base runner either beats the throw by a hair or arrives at the same instant as the throw and is called out at first. Only when the runner OBVIOUSLY beats the throw do they call him safe (and Don Denkinger even screwed THAT up).
Me? Yell at an Umpire?!
I may make “general comments” to other onlookers seated near me in my “naturally” loud voice.... ;) Occasionally...
I did once and only ONCE plop my lawn chair directly behind the Ump and sigh quite loudly a few times. It did actually work, but my daughter told me to MOVE!
I don’t have any permanent scars, ouch!
My fault. I read your post wrong. I thought you meant the first baseman didn’t have to be anywhere near the base and they’d call the runner out, like on second with the double play. My bad.
They instituted a very limited instant replay rule a couple of years ago. It essentially only applies to whether a ball went over the fence on a home run and was it fair or foul. A number of ball parks have a hard wall a couple of feet behind the outfield fence and when the balls barely clear the fence, they can bounce of the wall behind the outfield wall and back into the field of play. It was difficult to determine sometimes if the ball bounced of the outfieled wall or the wall behind it. After a couple of missed calls, MLB started the instant replay rule, but only in those limited situations.
Unless the relationship is direct rather than inverse, I don't know how that explains me.
“Tell me who has to get lives again?”
The loser with nothing better to do than cause trouble on a thread totally irrelevant to said loser.
Rude and stupid...nice combination.
“They would have to wear armor to protect their shins. Everyone agrees that its better to let it slide, so to speak.”
Also eliminates knee injuries at second.
Having been both ripped with steel spikes at second (gave back as good as I got too) and had my knee blown out at the same base it is a very good way to protect the players.
In 1969 at Al Somers umpire school (taken over by Harry Wendlesteadt (SP) and I think now his son). we were taught to call it safe if they missed the bag.
I had the same point. It didn’t appear that that was the case in practice. Not as many re-runs payed as you see now with various camera angles and multiple play-backs.
Personally and with my partners in the minor leagues, we would call a missed base tag safe only if we were sure of it. Many close swipes went to the fielders.
When you’re inside the bases because there’s a runner on base its not always the easiest call . Most of the short stops go behind the base and will get a “close” call.
The injury thing is an issue also. But it wasn’t something to which I gave priority.
In umpire school we were told that the good players will touch the bag, but I think they all worry about the injury.
In professional sports, if both sides don’t want it called, it may not be called. Position is, if you call it that way for them, you have to call it that way for us. The umps learn what those calls are and I think they often do what the teams want.
Basketball is similar and many times more often. Also, it looks like stars get more slack than the average player.
Here’s a story. A new rookie pitcher was on the mound when Ted Williams came to the plate. They say Williams eye was so good he could read the label on the pitched ball as it came to the plate.
The pitcher threw one near the outside corner. Williams didn’t swing and the umpire said “Ball one.”
The next pitch was very close on the inside corner. Williams took the pitch and the ump said “Ball Two.”
The pitcher came down off the mound a little and said “looked like a strike.”
The ump took off the mask and went around to the front of the plate and said: “Son, Mr. Williams will let you know when it’s a strike.”
Can’t fault him that, excepting its inappropriate for such newbie (though God only knows what incarnation this is). But he clearly has no love for baseball, and that, along with Mom and apple pie, is an essential for any true conservative.
And yet you are here....
Now that’s respect! Lovin’ it! Haha.
Yes, it does ... and it's as corrosive to honor and decency in sports as it is in the 'real' world.
Why aren’t you here? :)
I think it peaked somewhat with Michael Jordan, but when I see Kobe force his way through a defender to push off and get a shot and/or call, I know it’s still alive. Easy to spot in the NBA.
Yeah, because only 650 million people or so watched a mid-week EPL match between Manchester City and Manchester United yesterday. Absolutely pitiful numbers compared to a typical Monday night MLB audience, right?
YOU should pay more, Scum!!
Are there any sports other than football and basketball where the line is "out"? Every other sport I can think of requires the whole ball (puck, whatever) to cross the entire line before the line is considered passed.
E.g., soccer: the touchlines are "in" and the entire ball has to cross the entire line to be a goal; tennis: the lines are "in"; baseball: foul lines/poles are "in"; hockey: entire puck has to cross entire line to be onside (or clear the offensive zone), be icing, or be a goal; etc.
I’m 55 and played both shortstop and second base while in college. I don’t think I touched it except by accident on a double play ball. If someone was stealing second, however, you damn well better be on the bag.
Icing is allowed -- when you are shorthanded. Otherwise, you have to actually try to move the puck out of your own end, not just fling it down ice.
And offsides is the thing that prevents hockey from being basketball. Again, you have to actually move the puck into the zone.
And the defense can gain the blue line to force all of the other team's players to leave the zone. It releases the pressure in your own end.
Without offsides, you could have a guy stand next to the goal all game long and then pass it to him the entire length of the ice.
>>Yeah, because only 650 million people or so watched a mid-week EPL match between Manchester City and Manchester United yesterday. Absolutely pitiful numbers compared to a typical Monday night MLB audience, right?<<
I stand corrected — very few REAL PEOPLE watch. Soccer is proof most people in the world are easily entertained. I mean, I love the NFL but could never watch a game that went on for a week (think Cricket Test Matches).
(that is a joke, you realize, right? Well, except for the Test Match part...)
Thursday, August 2, 1952
Okay,I give up.
What does “submarine a throw” mean?
To answer your questions: No to the first and yes to the second......