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Fossil Fuels. When are we going to stop using this false description of anaerobic oil?
General Knowledge verses historical (mis-knowledge)

Posted on 06/04/2012 10:05:51 AM PDT by jongaltsr

How long are we going to continue referring to oil as Fossil fuel when we have known for many (Many) years that oil as we know it comes not from Dinosaurs etc but rather from "other" organic materials such as "trees" etc.

Animals that die (including dinosaurs) do not leave a trace of "oil" when they die. They putrefy, dehydrate and turn to dust, leaving only their bones to be discovered later on.

Yes there are fossils in the La Brea Tar Pits and many other such surface Tar Pits around the world but that is because animals fell in the oil that already existed and drowned because they could not swim or breathe.

Tar comes from trees, grasses, moss, peat moss etc and any fossils that are found in them were the result of those items being buried in amongst the organic material before it sunk down and decomposed far beneath the earth's surface.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Chit/Chat; History; Reference
KEYWORDS: abiogenic; anaerobicoil; anwr; cassini; energy; fossilfuel; huygens; keystonexl; oil; opec; saturn; tar; thomasgold; titan
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1 posted on 06/04/2012 10:06:03 AM PDT by jongaltsr
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To: jongaltsr

Fossil Fuel because fossils are found at the same layers as the source rock.

Granted that Algae and the like don’t leave much of a fossil, but their neighbors do.


2 posted on 06/04/2012 10:09:00 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: jongaltsr
Tar comes from trees, grasses, moss, peat moss etc and any fossils that are found in them were the result of those items being buried in amongst the organic material before it sunk down and decomposed far beneath the earth's surface.

You described the origins of coal, but oil is not so cut and dried. There is some thought that it condensed out of the solar nebula and didn't originate from anything living.

3 posted on 06/04/2012 10:09:44 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: jongaltsr

Actually recent theories are that oil and other “fossil fuels” come from geological processes...


4 posted on 06/04/2012 10:12:00 AM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: jongaltsr
Whenever anyone talks to me about 'fossil fuels' I ask them about the moon Titan.

It's loaded with hydrocarbons.

/johnny

5 posted on 06/04/2012 10:13:03 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: jongaltsr

6 posted on 06/04/2012 10:13:34 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Lame and ill-informed post)
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To: jongaltsr
There are two souses of oil. One is form biological matter and one form chemical. Even the “smokers”’ hot water coming from the deep sea bottom has traces of inorganic oil. Then there is man made oil which is converted into trashahol. How does man make oil, form great pressure and heat just like deep in the earth.
7 posted on 06/04/2012 10:16:54 AM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: UCANSEE2

This is where the Myth began! Our wonderfully designed planet constantly produces the brown ooze from deep within and up it creeps through any and all debris, organic and otherwise, left behind from times long ago.

Drill Baby Drill - sooner than later. Get the scrubbers in the coal stacks. And stop using the bloody corn for fuel!


8 posted on 06/04/2012 10:20:11 AM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: jongaltsr

Petroleum is formed under great pressure from calcium carbonate (chalk), ferrous oxide (rust), and water in the Earth’s crust at a depth of approximately 60 km.

Dinosaurs and vegetation have nothing to do with it.


9 posted on 06/04/2012 10:21:06 AM PDT by TruthInThoughtWordAndDeed (Yahuah Yahusha)
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To: mountainlion
How does man make oil, form great pressure and heat just like deep in the earth.

Heat and Pressure is how we break down oil into smaller , lighter components in our refineries.

10 posted on 06/04/2012 10:22:12 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Yes.


11 posted on 06/04/2012 10:23:19 AM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (Obamanomics-We don't need your stinking tar sands oil, we'll just grow algae.)
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To: jongaltsr
"other" organic materials such as "trees"

Even these other fossilized materials make up just a tiny fraction of the hydrocarbons we can and do extract as oil. For one thing, hydrocarbons appear to be commonplace in other parts of our solar system. Some of the outer planets have "moons" that are covered in seas of frozen methane. Organic compounds have even been detected in other planetary systems within our galaxy.

The conventional wisdom which dictates that oil, gas, and coal are exclusively derived from ancient life forms is perpetuated these days for two reasons. One, to protect "experts" whose reputations and livelihoods are based blind attachment to an illogical and outmoded theory.

And two, so that Chicken Little environmentalists can continue to make their projections every few years and decades that we are fast approaching the end of the supply of oil. The fact that "proven reserves" of the same have steadily increased over those same decades is simply an inconvenient fact they must ignore to keep the grant money flowing.

12 posted on 06/04/2012 10:23:19 AM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: JRandomFreeper; jongaltsr

Yes. Hydrocarbons are the basic building blocks of the universe.


13 posted on 06/04/2012 10:23:33 AM PDT by marron
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To: thackney

Heat and Pressure is how we break down oil into smaller , lighter components in our refineries

They use catalysts also. Take trash and heat and compress it make oil also.http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/967192/posts


14 posted on 06/04/2012 10:33:00 AM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: jongaltsr

I have been saying for 20 YEARS that oil comes from COMPRESSION of rocks. I don’t know if I’m right but I NEVER bought “dinosaurs and such” crap.


15 posted on 06/04/2012 10:36:44 AM PDT by Ann Archy ( ABORTION...the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: jongaltsr
How long are we going to continue referring to oil as Fossil fuel when we have known for many (Many) years that oil as we know it comes not from Dinosaurs etc but rather from "other" organic materials such as "trees" etc.

Dude, you seem to be confused.

The term "fossil" refers to plants as well as animals preserved in this way.

It's just that plant fossils don't get much attention because people are much more interested in fossil animals.

16 posted on 06/04/2012 10:40:21 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: jongaltsr

Can someone explain how trees, animals, etc formed the oil that lies two miles below the surface here in the Bakken formation?


17 posted on 06/04/2012 10:41:33 AM PDT by upsdriver
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To: mountainlion

Catalysts lower the energy required or accelerate the same chemical reaction. It is still heat and pressure breaking down oil. The catalysts just make it less expensive.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/99128/catalyst


18 posted on 06/04/2012 10:43:09 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: piytar; All

the Russians proposed this over 60 years ago

key terms abiotic oil and abiogenic oil

Interesting article and book

http://asecondhandconjecture.com/index.php/2008/04/21/abiogenic-oil/

http://www.amazon.com/The-Deep-Hot-Biosphere-Fossil/dp/0387952535


19 posted on 06/04/2012 10:43:28 AM PDT by silverleaf (Funny how all the people who are for abortion are already born)
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To: Ann Archy

Who’d a thunk the ancients got it right when they named it “petroleum”— petra-rock, oleo-oil.


20 posted on 06/04/2012 10:44:12 AM PDT by Manly Warrior (US ARMY (Ret), "No Free Lunches for the Dogs of War" (my spelling is generally korrect!))
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To: piytar

“DEEP HOT BIOSPHERE”


21 posted on 06/04/2012 10:54:14 AM PDT by petro45acp ("Don't" read 'HOPE' by L Neil Smith and Aaron Zelman...it will bring tears to eyes. BORE!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: upsdriver
Can someone explain how trees, animals, etc formed the oil that lies two miles below the surface here in the Bakken formation?

What about the forests and dinosaurs on Saturn's moon Titan, nearly 900 million miles from the Sun? That moon -- the largest in the solar system -- is awash in hydrocarbon oceans.

22 posted on 06/04/2012 11:03:29 AM PDT by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
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To: upsdriver
The Bakken formation is part of the Williston Basin.

The biologicals trapped in the sediment were laid down the same way all that sediment that formed the rock was laid down. It took a lot of time to build up that much sediment. The Bakken exists in the Devonian and early Mississippian period of sedimentation, about 400 million years old. You need to remember the earth didn't look like it did today in that time period.


23 posted on 06/04/2012 11:08:20 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: JRandomFreeper; jongaltsr; marron; katana

I believe the oil and coal is the buried plant remains from Noah’s flood. The flood was more than just 40 days and nights of rain as it says in Genesis 7:11 ‘the fountains of the great deep were opened’. Dr. Walt Brown PhD surmises that this water was 10 miles deep and the water reached super critical pressure/temp where 1 pint of water equals 1 stick of dynamite.

This is the crux of his hydroplate theory decribed in great deatil [including predictions] with his online book. Part I is what we know / don’t know regarding evolution, part II hydroplate theory and supporting evidence, part III commonly asked questions and answers. I purchased the 8th edition hardback copy for $30 ~ it is the most comprehensive treatment of the subject of science and origins I’ve ever encountered.

Center for Scientific Creation - In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/IntheBeginningTOC.html


24 posted on 06/04/2012 11:19:07 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: BrandtMichaels
Then 'splain me all the hydrocarbons on Titan. Was there a flood on that moon?

/johnny

25 posted on 06/04/2012 11:36:20 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: piytar

totally agreed. it’s ridiculous to think otherwise. wouldn’t it be something if our creator used water and the world’s oil and other geologic components to keep the planet perfectly balanced.


26 posted on 06/04/2012 1:24:17 PM PDT by boldtruth11
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To: jongaltsr

Hydrogen my friends. It is the hydrogen atom, as it breaks its bond from a molecule, that releases energy. Humanity is blessed with an abundant supply of this wonderful gift that has lifted man from a stone hammer to an atomic particle accelerator. To economically and efficiently store, transport and use hydrogen we can ask for no better a medium than the lowly hydrocarbon molecule. Albert Einstein pointed out that Hydrogen is one of the two most abundant things in the universe. The other is well documented by some of the discussions in this thread.


27 posted on 06/04/2012 1:25:10 PM PDT by freedserf (embrace reason (the verb))
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To: freedserf

LOL

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/the_two_most_common_elements_in_the_universe_are/209209.html


28 posted on 06/04/2012 1:55:42 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
It would be nice to find a catalyst to make organic waste into a fuel ready to use.
29 posted on 06/04/2012 2:14:51 PM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: mountainlion
It would be nice to find a catalyst to make organic waste into a fuel ready to use.

Here you go


30 posted on 06/04/2012 2:16:41 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: JRandomFreeper

I can’t begin to do justice to the online book [creationscience.com] thoroughly researched and footnoted with both pro and con in the evo debates. Only the hydroplate theory explains where all the waters came from and went to during Noah’s flood and many of Earth’s previously contradictory geologic mysteries.

When the waters of the great deep broke open so did the skies of our upper atmosphere, [recall SCW Super Critical Water: state of water above 705 degrees F and 6200 PSI turns super explosive where 1 pint = 1 stick of dynamite] resulting in the original break-up of the tectonic plates and pieces of earth crust slamming other bodies in the solar system.

There is an ocean trench that circumnavigates the globe and parallels all the major mountain ranges. This sub-oceanic SCW water broke open representing the global water source [5 to 10 miles deep]and also heralded the beginning of natural disasters, tornadoes, hurricanes, asteroids, meteoroids, comets, quakes, etc. amongst other heavenly bodies in our solar system as they could still get slammed but not nearly as bad as Earth itself during the 40-day rains resulting in a 1-year long global flood.

Here’s an excerpted explanation of the hydroplate theory:

“New evidence shows that the earth has experienced a devastating, worldwide flood, whose waters violently burst forth from under the earth’s crust. Standard “textbook” explanations for many of earth’s major features are scientifically flawed. We can now explain, using well-understood phenomena, how this cataclysmic event rapidly formed so many features. These and other mysteries, listed below and briefly described in the next 11 pages, are best explained by an earthshaking event, far more catastrophic than almost anyone has imagined. Later chapters are devoted to topics italicized below.

The Grand Canyon (pages 199–232)
Mid-Oceanic Ridge
Earth’s Major Components
Oceanic Trenches, Earthquakes, and the Ring of Fire (pages 150–183)
Magnetic Variations on the Ocean Floor
Submarine Canyons
Coal and Oil
Methane Hydrates
Ice Age
Frozen Mammoths (pages 246–276)
Major Mountain Ranges
Overthrusts
Volcanoes and Lava
Geothermal Heat
Strata and Layered Fossils (pages 186–197)
Limestone (pages 238–243)
Metamorphic Rock
Plateaus
The Moho and Black Smokers
Salt Domes
Jigsaw Fit of the Continents
Changing Axis Tilt
Comets (pages 280–311)
Asteroids and Meteoroids (pages 314–335)
Earth’s Radioactivity (pages 339–384)

Each appears to be a consequence of a sudden, unrepeatable event—a global flood whose waters erupted from interconnected, worldwide subterranean chambers with an energy release exceeding the explosion of trillions of hydrogen bombs. The hydroplate theory, explained later in this chapter, will resolve all these mysteries.

But first, what is a hydroplate? Before the global flood, considerable water was under the earth’s crust. Pressure increases in this subterranean water ruptured that crust, breaking it into plates. The escaping water flooded the earth. Because hydro means water, those crustal plates will be called hydroplates. Where they broke, how they moved, and hundreds of other details and evidence—all consistent with the laws of physics—constitute the hydroplate theory and explain to a great extent why the earth looks as it does.”


31 posted on 06/04/2012 2:20:59 PM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: BrandtMichaels
Great. That's not what I asked... Personally, I think God can have created the universe however he wanted to.

'Splain me the massive amount of hydrocarbons on Titan.

/johnny

32 posted on 06/04/2012 2:26:16 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
In an environment of insufficient oxygen, Methane is the lowest energy state of carbon and hydrogen. A planet/moon forming with insufficient oxygen and sufficient hydrogen & carbon is going to form Methane. If large amounts of carbon exist rather than the 1/4 ratio to hydrogen, then some is going to form ethane.

Titan does not show to have the longer string hydrocarbons we find in crude oil like Paraffins, Naphthenes, Aromatics and Asphaltics. Calling methane and small amounts of ethane hydrocarbons just like our crude oil is being deceptive.

33 posted on 06/04/2012 2:39:51 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Manly Warrior

OMG!! I never thought about that!!


34 posted on 06/04/2012 2:45:43 PM PDT by Ann Archy ( ABORTION...the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: thackney
Paraffins, Napthenes and Asphaltics don't show up in spectral analysis as easily as do the lighter hydrocarbons.

And face it, that's all we're going on until we land something.

Methane is good enough for us. It would save a lot of lives, so that people aren't burning trees to cook their food.

I'm not being deceptive. I'm pointing out facts.

And what perzactly does happen to those light hydrocarbons on a planet-sized ball that has proven internal thermal reserves? What happens when you mash the light hydrocarbons under heat and pressure? What do they become?

/johnny

35 posted on 06/04/2012 2:49:23 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
And face it, that's all we're going on until we land something.

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/area/index.cfm?fareaid=12

The Huygens probe has successfully landed on Saturn's largest moon Titan. At around 11:30 UTC 14 January 2005 the probe touched down on the surface of this distant world.

I'm not being deceptive. I'm pointing out facts.

Many authors of articles have tried to equate the methane on Titan to our crude oil. They don't equate.

What happens when you mash the light hydrocarbons under heat and pressure? What do they become?

In refineries, we add pressure and temperature to break down hydrocarbons. If you add enough heat and pressure you could bread down all the chemical bonds including those in methane. But it doesn't reverse the process because you add more heat and pressure.

36 posted on 06/04/2012 2:58:03 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: JRandomFreeper

By the way, all crude oil contains biomarks. Each field is different. It allows us to analyse a sample of crude oil and match it to tell which field it came from.

http://www.thermo.com.cn/Resources/201008/916414948.pdf


37 posted on 06/04/2012 3:09:10 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
Great pix. It's not much of a probe. What is 2k deep? No answer for that.

There are ethanol molocules in free space... See this link for details.

No yeasty beasties involved.

I can't make booze without yeast. God obviously can.

38 posted on 06/04/2012 3:09:16 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
What is 2k deep?

So now you defending the theory by what has NOT been found?

39 posted on 06/04/2012 3:22:32 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
And your PDF just asserts biomarkers. It doesn't provide the underlying science.

Even a cook needs to see the source documents.

Geocentric does work for navigation... but it's wrong.

/johnny

40 posted on 06/04/2012 3:23:42 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: thackney
Do you have proof that there are NOT any asphaltics on Titan? Or are you also relying on spectral analysis? I have no proof either way.
41 posted on 06/04/2012 3:26:52 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
Okay, you have a nice day.

Petroleum Geologists following biotic production of produce gas and oil for the industry.

Those working under Abiotic theories have scammed investors and sometimes governments out of cash and time, but no commercial oil/gas production.

You might consider why all oil/gas commercial production is sourced to sedimentary basins, and why oil/gas never is sourced to igneous rock.

42 posted on 06/04/2012 3:28:59 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: JRandomFreeper

http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=31193

I cannot prove that no Leprechaun exist anywhere on the planet either.

Cheers.


43 posted on 06/04/2012 3:31:46 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
When someone uses Noah's Flood to justify a position.... I'm going to ask questions. I suspect that natural gas and oil here on this planet came from other than biological sources, even if they may be contaminated by them.

We've got plenty of time to debate it without being ugly.

/johnny

44 posted on 06/04/2012 3:32:32 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
When someone uses Noah's Flood to justify a position.

You have the wrong FReeper.

Cheers.

45 posted on 06/04/2012 3:35:31 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
Because carbon sequestration is limited to sedimentary rocks? And you can't make C+ anything without carbon?

/johnny

46 posted on 06/04/2012 3:37:08 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: thackney
Read #31 and #32.

/johnny

47 posted on 06/04/2012 3:41:19 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: thackney
And #33.

/johnny

48 posted on 06/04/2012 3:43:48 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

The aboitic claim is it is formed far deeper than the sedimentary layers.

It is just frustrating to me to see this nonsense posted over and over at Free Republic. It makes us look like fools.


49 posted on 06/04/2012 3:46:28 PM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: thackney
So complex hydrocarbons are always biotic? 'Splain me Titan.

I don't mind looking a fool, I've done that more than once. I want the truth of the matter.

/johnny

50 posted on 06/04/2012 3:52:57 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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