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The Electronic Armageddon (EMP's)
Frontpagemag.com ^ | August, 02, 2012 | Staff

Posted on 08/02/2012 6:54:57 AM PDT by Perseverando

The Congressionally chartered Task Force on National & Homeland Security (FNHS) will be holding a nationwide webcast on The Electronic Armageddon: EMP. The webcast is a combined effort of the TFNHS, The United West and the New English Review. There is a distinguished panel of experts, new videos and a discussion of solutions for addressing both man-made and natural threats.

LIVE STREAM EVENT -FRIDAY- AUGUST 3, 2012 - 11am Est.

The Electronic Armageddon
Watch the Live broadcast right here at TheUnitedWest.org

Featured Guests :
R. JAMES WOOLSEY - Former Director, CIA
REZA KAHLILI - CIA Covert Operative
REP ROSCOE BARTLETT - House Armed Services Committee Chairman
DR. WILLIAM FORSTCHEN - NYT Best Seller of EMP Novel "One Second After"
AMB HENRY COOPER - Former Director of Strategic Defense Initiative Organization
FRITZ ERMARTH - Former Chairman National Intelligence Council
DR. WILLIAM R. GRAHAM - President Reagan's Science
Advisor, NASA Administrator Chairman EMP Commission


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: emp; globaljihad; nationalsecurity; powergrid; preppers; shtf; survival; terrorism; wot
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That looks like an interesting panel of doom and gloomers. </sarc>
1 posted on 08/02/2012 6:55:03 AM PDT by Perseverando
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To: Perseverando

Indeed, thanks. Forstchens’s book will scare the crap out of you...he’s a pal of Newt’s.


2 posted on 08/02/2012 7:00:08 AM PDT by bigbob
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To: Perseverando
Which will come first: and EMP or a government collapse of the grid.
3 posted on 08/02/2012 7:01:59 AM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: bigbob

Yes! I read the book last summer. This is a threat to be taken seriously. I watched the Hillsdale College seminar on EMP last fall. Some of the same people will be speaking. I’m glad to see this is being discussed.


4 posted on 08/02/2012 7:05:46 AM PDT by sneakers (Go Sheriff Joe!)
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To: bigbob

It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE for any electromagnetic impulse to pass through any conductive barrier, even the metallic screen wire on the old “screen door”.

It is called the Faraday effect and such enclosures are “Faraday Cages”. I remember photos of a physicist sitting on a stool inside one while a LIGHTNING GENERATOR blasted huge bolts and arcs all around. He was completely untouched.

Has some exception to this basic principle of physics been repealed???

Just asking...


5 posted on 08/02/2012 7:08:05 AM PDT by Huebolt (It's not over until there is not ONE DEMOCRAT HOLDING OFFICE ANYWHERE. Not even a dog catcher!)
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To: Huebolt
This should be an interesting discussion. Our government has been ignoring the blaring klaxons on this subject.

We would do well to take a few billions of wasted EBT monies and put it into EMP protection for our grids. It might be good insurance to prevent most of us from starving to death in case of such an event.

6 posted on 08/02/2012 7:22:24 AM PDT by Gritty (It's either Obama and the Democrats or America. You can't have both. - Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Perseverando

I’m keeping a classic tube populated ham station (sitting aside my state of the art one.

Tubes f*rt the general direction of EMP, and I may still have comms should something bad occur. Heh.

All kidding aside, EMP protection would have double value - for both conflict and that evil sun that keeps threatening to shoot evil things this way. And as usual, the Obamadork and his clown show of SAT bottom dwellers can’t even spell the acronym.


7 posted on 08/02/2012 7:26:49 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: Huebolt

“...It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE for any electromagnetic impulse to pass through any conductive barrier, even the metallic screen wire on the old “screen door”...”

I’ve taught courses on this stuff...and your theory is correct...but remember that any small holes with conductors (wires, etc) leading into the “protected” space will allow the pulse (or at least selected frequencies of that pulse) to enter and do damage.


8 posted on 08/02/2012 7:29:41 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: Gritty
There was a discussion of a Carrington event on another board. There was a government study a few years back that cited the danger to the large transformers at power plants. The estimated loss is over 300 of the transformers. One factory in Muncie, Indiana used to build them. Yesterday I found on the internet that the equipment was sold off and the building is now used to manufacture railroad locos. AFAIK, we no longer build large transformers in this country. That complicates a recovery tremendously now that those transformers are built overseas. The study says that the power in some areas may not be restored for a time period ranging from months to years.
9 posted on 08/02/2012 7:43:03 AM PDT by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: Perseverando

for $5Trillion we could have update all our roads and bridges AND our aging electrical grid

This is our single biggest vulnerab ility

A few well placed nukes could trigger an EMP strong enough to fry our current grid (permanently!) and put us into the horse and buggy days for years


10 posted on 08/02/2012 7:54:02 AM PDT by Mr. K ("The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum [of good]")
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To: Huebolt

our entire electrical grid would be fine if it was inside an electrical cage - but the overhanging wires you see are vulnerable to EMP

They could send enough current back into the generators to fy them too even if they are inside a cage


11 posted on 08/02/2012 7:57:08 AM PDT by Mr. K ("The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum [of good]")
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To: Huebolt
Oh no, it hasn't. Faraday cages are the standard line of defense against an EMP.

While I'm on the subject: we all need a little drama in our lives, some more than others. When the prepper circuit got ahold of the EMP issue, the excitement started. An EMP attack, it was held, would not only send the entire United States back to the 19th century but would also paralyze the entire government.

Recently, I was on a prepper blog reading a post about how to set up a Faraday cage. One of the commenters there politely corrected the urban legends (i.e., about using old microwaves) and explained how to build a proper Faraday cage. It turns out that this fellow was a soldier, and his tips came from the U.S. Army experimenting and testing Faraday cage units to find out what'll work and what won't.

If you're interested, he said that the only sure-fire Faraday cage was a solid box made of (preferably) copper or aluminum that, when closed, conducted electricity as if it had been welded shut. It has to be grounded with a nine-foot copper rod hammered into the earth and welded to the box itself through copper wire. The Army was buying conducting gaskets to make sure its own Faraday cages were up to snuff.

There's one aspect of the prepper world I'd like to call attention to: a kind of insider's-club attitude. It's SOP in the prepper world to not only believe that the "sheeple" will remain unprepared and helpless, but also that the U.S. government will too. I guess they're used to being ignored. The idea that soldiers, officers and out-of-the-spotlight bureaucrats will read the same material that they do, let alone take some action, doesn't even seem to occur to them.

For example, I'm quite sure that the D.C. Establishment knows all that we know about the coming debt crisis, if not more. They don't do anything about it because the person who sticks his neck out is going to have it chopped off by the electorate. So, both sides have a mutual non-action pact: they're waiting until the crisis erupts before they'll do something about it. Then, but not until then, they'll swing into action.

Not that the above paragraph is all that reassuring! I read somewhere that the TSA was blueprinted in the late Clinton Administration, so it was already "on the shelf" on 9/11. This claim makes sense, as government usually takes a long while to get anything off the ground. [Some of you may remember common-sensical solutions, like "arm the pilots," being ignored or dismissed out of hand.] It's a sure bet that FedGov has a similar contingency plan in the case of a debt crisis...or in the case of an EMP attack.

As for whether it's the best option...well, you know the track record of FedGov.

12 posted on 08/02/2012 7:59:54 AM PDT by danielmryan
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To: Huebolt

The worst effect is not on what is naturally shielded, or intentionally shielded. The problem is that the long lines of the electrical grid, both transmission and distribution are pretty much perfect antennae for the various EMP pulses.

Modern cars, well grounded appliances and the natural shielding of commercial structures might indeed save electronics.

But the electric grid will go down. Without electricity USA society will collapse in three to nine days. It will take longer to get even portions of the grid back up.

I have lost the link but a British economist/ sociologist wrote a great paper that was essentially “ 9 days from the Middle Ages “. It covers how society collapses rapidly and why.

So as you read about EMP bear in mind the real danger is that you and your family would have 3-9 days before you live in a 12th century, pre-industrial age that shifts rapidly from event to realization to chaos to barbarism/feudalism. How long recovery and reorganization takes is a worthy debate.

90%+ population loss is the general prediction target, mostly and rapidly in urban population areas. “No city can feed itself” is an axiom. Neither can it water or fuel itself.

Two worthy titles are indeed ‘One second after’ and the movie Remnants.

Net: if the grid goes down you have <72 hours to get to a place out of urban areas. After 48 hours travel will be dangerous and lethal after 72. 9 days to have everything to survive for 90 days, then perseverance and perspiration to go on til reorganization and recovery take hold.


13 posted on 08/02/2012 8:08:51 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: mountainlion

“Which will come first: and EMP or a government collapse of the grid.”

Don’t forget cyber warfare either. Or the 57 power plants they are shutting down. One way or the other its going to happen.

Gotta run. Another solar panel to put up.


14 posted on 08/02/2012 8:08:52 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Huebolt

The worst effect is not on what is naturally shielded, or intentionally shielded. The problem is that the long lines of the electrical grid, both transmission and distribution are pretty much perfect antennae for the various EMP pulses.

Modern cars, well grounded appliances and the natural shielding of commercial structures might indeed save electronics.

But the electric grid will go down. Without electricity USA society will collapse in three to nine days. It will take longer to get even portions of the grid back up.

I have lost the link but a British economist/ sociologist wrote a great paper that was essentially “ 9 days from the Middle Ages “. It covers how society collapses rapidly and why.

So as you read about EMP bear in mind the real danger is that you and your family would have 3-9 days before you live in a 12th century, pre-industrial age that shifts rapidly from event to realization to chaos to barbarism/feudalism. How long recovery and reorganization takes is a worthy debate.

90%+ population loss is the general prediction target, mostly and rapidly in urban population areas. “No city can feed itself” is an axiom. Neither can it water or fuel itself.

Two worthy titles are indeed ‘One second after’ and the movie Remnants.

Net: if the grid goes down you have <72 hours to get to a place out of urban areas. After 48 hours travel will be dangerous and lethal after 72. 9 days to have everything to survive for 90 days, then perseverance and perspiration to go on til reorganization and recovery take hold.


15 posted on 08/02/2012 8:08:58 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Perseverando
"REZA KAHLILI - CIA Covert Operative "

Not any longer... :-(

~~~~~~~~~

(From the FR editor page: "Loose lips sink ships."

16 posted on 08/02/2012 8:15:00 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: Blueflag

Sorry ‘bout the double post!


17 posted on 08/02/2012 8:16:11 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Huebolt

This Faraday cage experiment can be seen daily at the Museum of Science in Boston.


18 posted on 08/02/2012 8:28:34 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: TXnMA

Yep, I noticed that too. Maybe he’ll wear a mask. (Just kidding.)

I stand corrected. I just did a quick search, he probably will be wearing a mask -

“His disguise consists of a blue surgeon’s mask, sunglasses and a baseball cap that reads “Free Iran.” A small modulator distorts his voice. He uses a pseudonym, Reza Kahlili.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/middleeast/la-na-iran-spy-20120707,0,7889639.story?page=1


19 posted on 08/02/2012 8:30:15 AM PDT by Perseverando (Gun control? It's the OBOTS who are filling up prisons for violent crimes, not the Tea Party.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

India is our future power pattern.


20 posted on 08/02/2012 8:30:23 AM PDT by mountainlion (I am voting for Sarah after getting screwed again by the DC Thugs.)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

Your solar panel’s wiring an circuitry is at risk. Keep spares in a grounded metal box, like a tool box. Spare circuits, not spare panels. ;-)


21 posted on 08/02/2012 8:49:34 AM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: meatloaf
We have about 1200 of those transformers in the U.S. They take 3 years to build after receipt of order. None are on order. There are no spares. A Carrington style event would wipe out 1/3 of the transformers...mostly in the northern tier states where the magnetic field provides less shielding from a CME impact.

My home is in that red spot in southeast Idaho. We already have power outages during significant thunderstorm activity. Our fresh water is pumped from sub-surface wells using electric pumps. If the power fails, we'll be making regular trips to the river to gather what we can. Purification will be necessary.

22 posted on 08/02/2012 8:55:39 AM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Huebolt

“It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE for any electromagnetic impulse to pass through any conductive barrier, even the metallic screen wire on the old “screen door”.”

Maxwell begs to differ.


23 posted on 08/02/2012 8:57:08 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Perseverando

Reminds me I need to get a metal garbage can as a Faraday cage. I found out recently current attempt is a fail.


24 posted on 08/02/2012 8:57:19 AM PDT by MachIV
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To: Da Coyote

“I’ve taught courses on this stuff...and your theory is correct...but remember that any small holes with conductors (wires, etc) leading into the “protected” space will allow the pulse (or at least selected frequencies of that pulse) to enter and do damage.”

At low enough frequencies, screen, even continuous foils will not stop a magnetic field from penetrating. It’s far more complicated than you are claiming.


25 posted on 08/02/2012 9:00:55 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Blueflag

We are getting an off grid system. Grid ties will get fried along with everything else.


26 posted on 08/02/2012 9:59:55 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: Myrddin

The other issue is that the only factory that made those transformers in the US was closed. The building in Muncie, IN is being used to build locomotives. Any replacemens for any of the main transformers a power plants will probably have to come from overseas, unless the utility has spares which is unlikely.

The other issue I’ve seen was a freak loss and restoration of load at a power plant that resulted in the generator core being twisted. The plant did no trip. Everything was fine until the plant shutdown.On startup the generator has significant vibration issues which could not be repaired on site, The rotor had to removed and shipped out for repair.

We’re going to see lots of unusual events when the grid goes down and circuits are overloaded when they try to compensate.


27 posted on 08/02/2012 10:05:28 AM PDT by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: Huebolt
It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE for any electromagnetic impulse to pass through any conductive barrier, even the metallic screen wire on the old “screen door”.

No. Go back to microwave engineering class.

The intensity on the far side of a cutoff waveguide is proportional to the inverse-square of the distance where the intensity is measured. Depending on the frequencies that make it up, and its intensity, EMP will cause some problems with screened electronics.

But that ain't the main problem.

The main problem is the so-called E3 pulse, the long-wavelength geomagnetic currents that are induced in the earth and in long electric wires. Those are powerful enough to burn out gigawatt power turbines. Ask the Russians about that one.

28 posted on 08/02/2012 11:06:57 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
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To: backwoods-engineer

Thanks to all for the info. I had to go without electricity for 29 hours due to storm damage and agree it is back to the stone age.

12 v.d.c. LED systems for backup seem ok for light, but all those other appliances are, as you say, goners.

It is a real problem that lead acid storage batteries are both expensive and short-lived. Static inverters are not bad.


29 posted on 08/02/2012 11:21:44 AM PDT by Huebolt (It's not over until there is not ONE DEMOCRAT HOLDING OFFICE ANYWHERE. Not even a dog catcher!)
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To: Georgia Girl 2

“We are getting an off grid system. Grid ties will get fried along with everything else.”

There might still be trouble even on an isolated system. The wires leading from the panels (and perhaps the panels themselves) may act as antennas to harvest the EMP pulse, frying the charge controllers and inverters.


30 posted on 08/02/2012 1:48:57 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
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To: TexasRepublic

Most of this EMP talk is hype.

All signals weaken exponentially with distance.

If you try to calculate how many EMP weapons would be required to cover the country, you get close to looking at infinity.

Be afraid, be very afraid.


31 posted on 08/02/2012 2:00:22 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they were.)
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To: Perseverando

Most of the people listed above are well known globalist shills. I wouldn’t take their advise if it came with free gold bars.


32 posted on 08/02/2012 2:04:13 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they were.)
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To: Perseverando

I will be at work when it’s broadcast. Will it be available for later viewing?


33 posted on 08/02/2012 7:12:07 PM PDT by sneakers (Go Sheriff Joe!)
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To: danielmryan
If you're interested, he said that the only sure-fire Faraday cage was a solid box made of (preferably) copper or aluminum that, when closed, conducted electricity as if it had been welded shut. It has to be grounded with a nine-foot copper rod hammered into the earth and welded to the box itself through copper wire.

Are you sure about that grounding part?
34 posted on 08/02/2012 8:18:12 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: Blueflag
The worst effect is not on what is naturally shielded, or intentionally shielded. The problem is that the long lines of the electrical grid, both transmission and distribution are pretty much perfect antennae for the various EMP pulses.

Modern cars, well grounded appliances and the natural shielding of commercial structures might indeed save electronics.

But the electric grid will go down. Without electricity USA society will collapse in three to nine days. It will take longer to get even portions of the grid back up.


I agree with all these points. Pipelines will also become antennae. I am concerned about the SCADA systems.
35 posted on 08/02/2012 8:23:03 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: Perseverando

BTTT


36 posted on 08/02/2012 8:23:15 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: Blueflag
Sorry ‘bout the double post!

Nah. It was worth repeating. Also the 90 day lay low estimate.
37 posted on 08/02/2012 8:24:50 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: Blueflag; Georgia Girl 2
Your solar panel’s wiring an circuitry is at risk. Keep spares in a grounded metal box, like a tool box. Spare circuits, not spare panels. ;-)

The diodes will be at risk. You will need away to desolder and solder them. A good voltmeter with diode function will be helpful. A greater concern will be the FETS in your inverters.
38 posted on 08/02/2012 8:29:27 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: RFEngineer
Maxwell begs to differ.

Yep.
39 posted on 08/02/2012 8:32:51 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: Georgia Girl 2
We are getting an off grid system. Grid ties will get fried along with everything else.

There is one major vulnerability and that is your grounding if you are still grid tied for power and solar for backup. This goes back to the NEC requirement that all grounding be common. I have gone with welding connectors to disconnect my inverters. It may still not be enough.
40 posted on 08/02/2012 8:36:33 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: Huebolt
It is a real problem that lead acid storage batteries are both expensive and short-lived. Static inverters are not bad.

This may help you. Check out Battery Minders. Lead acid are tricky when it comes to cycling, temperature and sulfation. The Battery Minders just work. I am on my second set of 8-L16 Trojans after 14 years. The maintenance on the old set was a headache, but now everything is pretty much hands-off standby, except for the occasional watering (have enough distilled water stored).

I hope this helps.
41 posted on 08/02/2012 8:42:38 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: Jet Jaguar
BTTT....indeed


42 posted on 08/02/2012 8:46:20 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Hold.....hold......hold.......)
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To: editor-surveyor
Most of this EMP talk is hype.

I'm sorry (and I rarely disagree with you here), but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. Long line and ground currents (E3) are a real threat.

You can actually test this yourself. During the next CME take two metal rods (if you have copper-copper sulfate electrodes the better) and a voltmeter set to auto DC/AC (ignore DC values below .5 volts. This is just the galvanic difference). Keep one electrode stationary in the middle and move the other in a circular pattern until you find the maximum readings.

It will be an eye opener. One caveat if you live very north is the background telluric currents. They will be very active, but hard to subtract out of your test.
43 posted on 08/02/2012 8:54:12 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: PA Engineer

Oops. Space your electrodes at least 10 feet apart. Even the smallest guage wire will work just fine.


44 posted on 08/02/2012 8:56:32 PM PDT by PA Engineer ("We're not programs, Gerty, We're People")
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To: PA Engineer
Are you sure about that grounding part?

That's what I remember reading. Is it wrong?

45 posted on 08/02/2012 11:00:15 PM PDT by danielmryan
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To: Huebolt

>even the metallic screen wire on the old “screen door”.

So what? Nothing is protected in this country except some military locations and maybe your stuff enclosed behind metal screens.
Hundreds of Major transformers and power stations would be wiped out along with most transport & communications in the country.
Literally every building and piece of equipment would be compromised.
The die off rate would be stunning before widespread relief could be obtained. - If it ever could.


46 posted on 08/03/2012 6:33:57 AM PDT by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: PA Engineer

Thanks for the info. Will do.


47 posted on 08/03/2012 7:13:30 AM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: editor-surveyor

...f you try to calculate how many EMP weapons would be required to cover the country, you get close to looking at infinity.

Be afraid, be very afraid.

All wrong. In fact it takes one - more than that are actually counterproductive and the amount of time the field takes to hit & saturate is measured in billionths of a second (a shake in nuclear physics) No hype involved.


48 posted on 08/03/2012 9:35:59 AM PDT by bill1952 (Choice is an illusion created between those with power - and those without)
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To: Huebolt
Has some exception to this basic principle of physics been repealed???

Yes. It is the physics principle which states that if you stick to science and facts, you will succeed. That has been repealed by the government, which has instituted the policy where if you don't say what the government wants, you no longer get funded.

From 1945-1992 there were over ONE THOUSAND NUCLEAR BOMB TESTS done in the United States.

How many 'electrical grids' went down ?

49 posted on 08/03/2012 9:43:47 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Help. How do I put something in my tagline.)
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To: Huebolt
It is theoretically IMPOSSIBLE for any electromagnetic impulse to pass through any conductive barrier, even the metallic screen wire on the old “screen door”.

So...hiding under a wooden desk wouldn't protect you from an EMP pulse, any more than it would from a nuclear fireball.

Wow. My teachers in grade school lied to me.

50 posted on 08/03/2012 9:46:18 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (Help. How do I put something in my tagline.)
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