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Why turn a rape into rape-murder?

Posted on 08/20/2012 7:55:26 PM PDT by sagar

Please ignore this if you are so "outraged" about Akin that you cannot dissect things more rationally and logically.

Akin made a legitimate mistake, in his choice of words. There are no legitimate rapes. A rape is a rape, whether it was legitimate or statutory. A rape destroys life -- the life of the victim. If the rape inadvertently creates life, then that should be cherished as a sign of something good out of something horrible.

So, murdering a child conceived via rape is still worth saving. By turning the rape into murder is evil. The grieving victim of the rape has no right to turn her grief on an innocent child who has absolutely no fault. The child is blessed like all children conceived.

If conservatives back now from this, they will give tremendous ammunition to the abortionists (including the Obomney wing of the GOP). Axing of Akin might be a short term victory, but it will damage the pro life movement by altering the PRINCIPLES that actually matter!


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Society
KEYWORDS: abortion; murder; rape
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Do not turn a rape into murder!
1 posted on 08/20/2012 7:55:33 PM PDT by sagar
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To: sagar

Apparently what Akin said is true - pregancy is rare via rape, according to pro-abortionists. It just surprises me that pro-lifers still don’t know how to state their belief that abortion is wrong no matter what and that comes directly from God: Thou shalt not kill. Period end of statement.


2 posted on 08/20/2012 8:03:03 PM PDT by Sioux-san
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To: sagar
You'd think a politician running for the US Senate, who holds this view, would be able to at least express it as articulately as you just did.

I think the call for Akin to withdraw is coming from two camps - those who are outraged, and those, like me, who while I can forgive his misstep, now have serious questions about his electability.
3 posted on 08/20/2012 8:07:52 PM PDT by zencycler
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To: Sioux-san

Yes- all life is sacred. Now.

In the OT, things were otherwise- to the point of obliterating all vestiges of the infidels/heathens/pagans.

Things are different now, and the path is difficult.

The Church can carry the true message; politicians may need to be more circumspect.

The Flag and the Cross are not the same...


4 posted on 08/20/2012 8:14:21 PM PDT by One Name
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To: zencycler

“I think the call for Akin to withdraw is coming from two camps - those who are outraged, and those, like me, who while I can forgive his misstep, now have serious questions about his electability.”

Don’t you see, electability is a smokes screen for the corrupt and power hungry. The real matter is principle, which is being completely ignored by those shouting for his withdrawal. If he withdraws, it might be helpful in the short-term(electability), but it will harm pro life principles. Now, nobody will dare talk against abortion of rape babies. The pro-life issue will now focus on rape and not on abortion.


5 posted on 08/20/2012 8:15:55 PM PDT by sagar (Do not turn a rape into murder!)
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To: One Name

To some, avoiding murder is because of a religious constraint(God said so). For me, avoiding murder is plain f###ing common sense! Why murder an innocent life, regardless of what God says. Do not allow reason be harmed by what supernatural thinks or says. Sorry, this is NOT a religious issue, but a HUMAN RIGHT... the Right to Life of an innocent being!


6 posted on 08/20/2012 8:19:32 PM PDT by sagar (Do not turn a rape into murder!)
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To: sagar

Unfortunately, that wasn’t what he said. If that was what he meant to say, then he should have said it.


7 posted on 08/20/2012 8:21:29 PM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: sagar

Because, ever since Roe v. Wade, and the near abolition of capital punishment, life has become cheap.


8 posted on 08/20/2012 8:21:43 PM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class!)
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To: sagar

I’m with you. Kill the rapist. Confiscate his property and give it to the victim. If there is a pregnancy, give the baby a chance to live. Put it up for adoption if the mother doesn’t want it.

Yeah it sucks, but killing babies is the worst thing a human being can do.


9 posted on 08/20/2012 8:22:02 PM PDT by Dogbert41 ("...The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God" Zech. 12:5)
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To: sagar

I concur. You must word this position more artfully if you are a politician- even in rural Missouri.

Abortion is wrong. Some draw a finer line at saving the life of the mother...what do you say then, FRiend?


10 posted on 08/20/2012 8:23:44 PM PDT by One Name
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To: sagar

That’s fine what you said.

Why didn’t Akin say that?

Instead he said “legitimate rape”, which makes it sound OK, as in legit, legitimate; or, alternatively like some women “cry rape” when they weren’t in fact raped at all. By which, I suppose, he meant “statutory” rape, but who knows? Maybe he meant false accusations/claims of rape.

Then he went into all that boogy woogie bullsxxxx about how you don’t usually, generally, get pregnant if you are (I guess this is what he meant) violently sexually assaulted, because your body can just “shut that down”.

Way to go, Congressman.

DROP OUT NOW!

Oh yeah, the only murder likely here is the MURDER of the REPUBLICAN chances in November.

Please urge candidate Akin not to turn his rape of the language into the murder of our chances this fall.

Thank you.

FIND THE NUMBERS AND CALL.

TOMORROW IS THIS DOPE’S LAST DAY TO DROP OUT CLEANLY.

HE NEEDS TO FIND THE DOOR AND DEPART!


11 posted on 08/20/2012 8:23:58 PM PDT by jocon307
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: sagar

We should definitely have that discussion.

The problem is we cannot get to that discussion because we have to wade through an idiotic and utterly pointless remark that derailed the whole issue and set it back probably a decade.

Bottome line: Stupid people do not help the pro-Life cause. No matter how sincere they are, they HURT not help the cause.


13 posted on 08/20/2012 8:27:10 PM PDT by Lorianne (fedgov, taxporkmoney)
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To: GBT1945
taking prayer out of schools
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can't let this go because it implies that if prayer would be returned to the government schools that somehow the problem would be solved. It won't! Why?

The problem isn't the lack of prayer. The problem is that government schooling is ( and **always** has been) a single-payer socialist-entitlement that was never, even at its best, more than generically lukewarm in its Protestant worldview.

Government schooling at its very best offered the students a lukewarm and generic Protestantism. What does the Bible say that Christ does with the lukewarm? Answer: He spits them out of His mouth!

Children who attend lukewarm and generically Protestant government schools must learn to think and reason in a lukewarm and generic manner just to cooperate in the classroom. In other words, they risk learning to be lukewarm about their family's specific religious beliefs.

Today, the government schools are utterly godless and today children must think and reason godlessly just to cooperate. Neither situation is good for the child or for our nation.

And....Since its beginning in the mid-1800s, government schooling has been a socialist-entitlement. Children attending these schools risked, and continue to risk, learning that any voting mob powerful enough to give them tuition-free schooling is powerful enough to give them **lots** of “free” stuff. All it took to get a Woodrow Wilson and Franklin D. Roosevelt was one to three generations of government owned and run socialist-entitlment indoctrination ( oops! “schooling”).

Solution: Begin the process of privatizing K-12 education.

14 posted on 08/20/2012 8:38:54 PM PDT by wintertime (:-))
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To: One Name

“Abortion is wrong. Some draw a finer line at saving the life of the mother...what do you say then, FRiend?”

That is a horrible situation to be put in. It is similar to separating conjoined twins where they must be separated for either one of them to survive. My take on this:

- this is a treatment where the INTENT is to save a life, not kill a life. Abortion’s intent is to kill a life, in order to make life less inconvenient for a woman.
- a treatment needs to happen, regardless of the outcome of the treatment, because only the act of treatment can save any life. If no treatment, no life, since both mother and child die.
- every treatment is unique, but in the treatment, perhaps the baby could be extracted safely. If not possible, the mother needs to be separated from the child for any possibility of her surviving.
- all treatments have risk. Death during separation is the risk due to limits in technology. In the olden days, both mother and child would die anyway. In the future, nobody dies!

Basically, I do NOT see the act of saving life as abortion. Am I wrong? Does it matter?


15 posted on 08/20/2012 8:40:29 PM PDT by sagar (Do not turn a rape into murder!)
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To: sagar

Just being pro-life isn’t enough. If you lack the ability to articulate this view well, express yourself foolishly, and alienate voters in the process, then are you really going to help that cause?


16 posted on 08/20/2012 8:42:49 PM PDT by zencycler
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To: sagar

In the grand scheme of things, the ONLY thing that really matters if whether or not we value innocent life. Everything is trivial — including economic philosophies.

History tells us that non-capitalist economies such as Communism put LESS emphasis on individual lives, thus they are more evil. In capitalism, where individual is supreme and has FREE WILL! Capitalism has its dark sides, but it is blindingly brighter than any other system out there.


17 posted on 08/20/2012 8:45:32 PM PDT by sagar (Do not turn a rape into murder!)
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To: sagar

This whole episode is rediculas, can we move on already?

I am the product of a rape, had abortion been legal when i was in my mother womb, I would not have made it to full term.

My mother already had 7 children, and we literally had dirt floors. If anyone should be insulted it should be me, and I am not. So can we please us move on and quit helping the Democrats and Rinos do their work.

We all misspeak at some time that is bad for us, let us not destroy our chance at gaining a super majority in the Senate by helping Claire McCaskill stay in Washington as Mo Senator.

Todd Akin is the vest man for the job, and he already apologized, so enough already.


18 posted on 08/20/2012 8:45:32 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: sagar

Sorry Sagar, but since Reagan, the exceptions have always been rape, incest and the life of the mother. As far as I’m concerned the exceptions are as inviolate as the rest of the pro-life plank.

This is the really real world. It’s not all happy endings and sunshine when a rape victim carries a baby to term. A fragile psyche can’t always withstand another 9 months of assault. People break. Also, please don’t hand me a line that watching the product of violence grow inside of her isn’t assault. Maybe some women will be able to compartmentalize the rape and separate it from the pregnancy, but everyone with a room temperature IQ knows that not every woman will be able to do so.

A marriage can’t always survive a husband watching another man’s baby grow in his wife’s womb, even when it was forced upon her. In the same fashion, perhaps some men can, but we know for certain that not all men are capable.

A thirteen year old’s life is no less at risk being impregnated so soon after becoming fertile because she didn’t consent. It’s just a fact of life that young girls become fertile before their bodies are fully developed. Immature skeletons with narrow pelvises, inabilities to create to enough red blood cells to handle the increased blood volume, inability of the immature venous system to handle increased flow creates PIH, etc etc.

No, as I told another poster. We’ll be keeping those exceptions to the pro-life platform for some time to come. Bear in mind that you really don’t want those who are pro-life in the Reagan sense to be forced to choose between two extremes. You’ll lose.


19 posted on 08/20/2012 8:45:32 PM PDT by Melas (u)
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To: sagar

I think you have expressed the issue with great wisdom.

I am not a great fan of medical intervention- in the old days God made the selections because we humans had few options.

Things are more complicated now, and primativists are not held in high esteem.

Your pro-life continuum through the issues is the right path, IMHO.


20 posted on 08/20/2012 8:47:56 PM PDT by One Name
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To: sagar

I would assume that Congressman Akin has the ability to say what he believes. Since his statement was far different from yours I believe he should be evaluated on what he said, not what we wish he had said.

He veered away from making a principled argument against abortion and tried to make some distinction between legitimate and I suppose illegitimate rape. He also tried to make the unprincipled argument that the frequency of conception in rape cases had something to do with the morality of abortion. Is abortion acceptable if there is 99 percent rate of conception but not acceptable if there is only 1 percent rate?

I believe the good Congressman dug a hole for himself that he can’t, and probably shouldn’t get out of. The question remaining is how many will go down with him.


21 posted on 08/20/2012 8:59:26 PM PDT by etcb
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Comment #22 Removed by Moderator

To: One Name

Thank you. The only issue that really matters is whether a society values human life. ALL of its policies and culture derive from that. A society can become murderous at any time... that is how we have evolved. As a species, for us to survive and thrive, killing innocent babies will only make us degenerate, hence not survive and thrive.


23 posted on 08/20/2012 9:01:32 PM PDT by sagar (Do not turn a rape into murder!)
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To: Melas

Politically you are 100% correct.

Spiritually, the New Testament is clear.

In the OT- Israel was directed to obliterate every last remnant of the ungodly.

I have a special needs granddaughter- unknown at this point how disabled she may be.

John 9:2-3 KJV
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


24 posted on 08/20/2012 9:03:31 PM PDT by One Name
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To: sagar

We are so far down that road only God can turn it around.

50 million since Roe V Wade, 1973?

God will turn it around; won’t be pretty.


25 posted on 08/20/2012 9:08:21 PM PDT by One Name
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To: sagar

We are so far down that road only God can turn it around.

50 million since Roe V Wade, 1973?

God will turn it around; won’t be pretty.


26 posted on 08/20/2012 9:15:25 PM PDT by One Name
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To: sagar

you said this so well, I totally agree with everything you said, he should not resign just because the pro-choice people demand it, I don’t know if people didn’t hear what he said or didn’t understand it, or are just grabbing the opportunity to hurt our side, AIKEN COULD HAVE CHOOSEN HIS WORDS BETTER, BUT HE SAID NOTHING WRONG IN MY JUDGEMENT
keep fighting the good fight y’ll, and next year will be the beginning to much better times


27 posted on 08/20/2012 9:27:31 PM PDT by munin
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To: sagar

“The grieving victim of the rape has no right to turn her grief on an innocent child who has absolutely no fault.”

True. But, do the men have the right to force a woman to go through gestation, and then suffer delivery agony/risks if the child is the product of rape? I am here assuming the rape victim does not want to carry and deliver the child.

Please consider the contradiction between your “innocent child” which should be “innocent fetus”, and the Christian concept of “Original Sin”.

Original Sin would not allow the fetus to be free of sin, or are you postulating that Original Sin is contracted during passage down the birth canal?


28 posted on 08/20/2012 9:53:09 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: OneVike

I am sorry to hear of your troubles but happy that you were blessed with life.

That was a very personal tale to tell in a public forum.


29 posted on 08/20/2012 10:17:40 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: sagar
Akin made a legitimate mistake, in his choice of words.

It is very hard to intellectualize a deeply held moral belief. If people would accept the simple answer, 'because it is wrong' this kind of thing would not happen.

30 posted on 08/20/2012 10:25:11 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Democrats: Ticket of Dope and Chains.)
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To: Mike Darancette

It’s not that hard to verbalize. Pro-lifers outside abortion clinics get bombarded with the “what about rape” question all the time, and interestingly enough all of us can and have given better responses than Mr. Akin gave.

Which leads me to think that Mr. Akin has never been outside an abortion clinic in his life.


31 posted on 08/20/2012 10:32:28 PM PDT by Truthsearcher
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To: Mike Darancette

No, It is easy to intellectualize a moral belief.

It is difficult to legislate.

You cant force someone to drink from the well.


32 posted on 08/20/2012 10:34:20 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Mike Darancette

I have had people damn me in my own home because we did not see eye to eye on theological matters.

I asked them to leave in a friendly way.
They are always welcome, just don’t damn me in my home.

The point is that these things need praying on. They don’t need knee jerk reactions, and they surely don’t need knee jerk reactions from people in power.

If some poor girl is raped I would not force her to raise the baby.
I would encourage her to at least bring the baby up for adoption but I would never damn her.


33 posted on 08/20/2012 10:43:45 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: One Name
Some draw a finer line at saving the life of the mother

That's where Akin drew the line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09iWwKiDsA

He was clearly uncomfortable answering the rape / abortion question, knowing his answer does not poll well. That's probably what led him to adduce the questionable medical research about probability of conception when the act is forced. I.e., Yeah, I'm against abortion in rape cases, but, really, the question hardly ever comes up in real life — the docs say so ... yadda, yadda. Oops! Scheißsturm incoming!

34 posted on 08/20/2012 10:44:34 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: GladesGuru

“But, do the men have the right to force a woman to go through gestation, and then suffer delivery agony/risks if the child is the product of rape? I am here assuming the rape victim does not want to carry and deliver the child.”

You assume a lot. A rape victim need not channel her anger towards the child. The child is an innocent party in this and does not deserve to be murdered. A rape victim should be counselled and supported, not encourage to murder.

Taking an innocent life is simply not an option. That is the principle of my argument.

“Please consider the contradiction between your “innocent child” which should be “innocent fetus”, and the Christian concept of “Original Sin”.”

All children are innocent. There is no one more innocent than an unborn child. Anything else, including the argument for abortion because of “original sin”, is bulls##t.

“Original Sin would not allow the fetus to be free of sin, or are you postulating that Original Sin is contracted during passage down the birth canal?”

Original Sin is a religious concept for those who subscribe. My argument is based on the right of an innocent human to life and nobody has the right to take that away, not even the mother-to-be and definitely not based on religious concepts.


35 posted on 08/20/2012 10:47:52 PM PDT by sagar (Do not turn a rape into murder!)
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To: cynwoody

36 posted on 08/20/2012 10:54:57 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: Truthsearcher
Which leads me to think that Mr. Akin has never been outside an abortion clinic in his life.

That may well be. But, have you ever had to give cogent secular reasons for your beliefs?

37 posted on 08/20/2012 10:56:09 PM PDT by Mike Darancette (Democrats: Ticket of Dope and Chains.)
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To: mylife

Das neugierige Kind

38 posted on 08/20/2012 11:03:48 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: Mike Darancette

“That may well be. But, have you ever had to give cogent secular reasons for your beliefs?”

Yes. I was anti-abortion long before I became a Christian.


39 posted on 08/20/2012 11:04:06 PM PDT by Truthsearcher
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To: cynwoody

Vos is los?


40 posted on 08/20/2012 11:10:17 PM PDT by mylife (The Roar Of The Masses Could Be Farts)
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To: mylife
Das Kind doesn't know it, but what he's really asking is, Was ist mein Impedanz?
41 posted on 08/20/2012 11:17:30 PM PDT by cynwoody
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To: GBT1945

Your statement about giving women the right to vote makes you seem like a good running mate for president, if Akin is ever at the top of the ticket.


42 posted on 08/21/2012 12:35:06 AM PDT by sakic
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To: GBT1945

Your statement about giving women the right to vote makes you seem like a good running mate for president, if Akin is ever at the top of the ticket.


43 posted on 08/21/2012 12:35:15 AM PDT by sakic
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To: sagar
The number of cases of abortion due to rape are minuscule compared to the total number of abortions.

It's like complaining about literally 0.1% to justify the remaining 99.9% of baby murders.

Akin could have framed it better, but he was probably stressed, however you are right -- a woman who has been violated this way and then aborts gets a double crime perpetrated on HER. She will feel guilty and almost feel a partner in the crime perpetrated on her (the rape).

44 posted on 08/21/2012 1:22:15 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: sagar

Well said.


45 posted on 08/21/2012 3:57:20 AM PDT by Dusty Road
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To: GBT1945
, guess what, biggest problem today, texting in class
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Putting prayer back into the government schools is like fighting a forest fire with a water pistol.

The biggest problem is that by **law** government schools are godless. If some of the teachers are sneaking in a little bit of Christianity then they are teaching a lesson. Lesson: Christians are SNEAKY!

The biggest problem is that by **law** teachers must teach all subjects from a godlessly secular humanist point of view. The children must think and reason godlessly just to cooperate in the classroom, read the godless texts, and do their godless homework.

The biggest problem is that as the children grow older they will eventually realize that this is in COMPLETE CONTRADICTION to any Christian belief to teach children to think and reason godlessly. Lesson taught: Christians will prostitute their most sacred beliefs for a paycheck, pension, and generous vacations.

The biggest problem is that every textbook is written from a godless;y secular humanist worldview. Progressives have **always** controlled curriculum development and teacher training. ( Read Gatto )

The biggest problem is likely every one of the teachers was indoctrinated by their colleges of education into the Marxist, globalist, and secular humanist worldview. That **will** bleed into the classroom even if Mrs. Honey Bun ( the 7th grade “social studies” teacher) is choir director of your local church.

Question: So?....Will the work of **real** missionaries be harder or easier as these children grow to adulthood? Who in their right mind would join a religion filled with sneaky hypocrites?

46 posted on 08/21/2012 5:14:39 AM PDT by wintertime (:-))
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To: munin

Exactly!

I am disgusted with how the careers of Republicans are crushed because of one **”legitimate”** misstatement but Democrats can say and **do** the most vile things throughout their miserable lives and are honored, not only in life, but given spectacular funerals.


47 posted on 08/21/2012 5:25:00 AM PDT by wintertime (:-))
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To: Mel A; OneVike
Sorry Sagar, but since Reagan, the exceptions have always been rape, incest and the life of the mother. As far as I’m concerned the exceptions are as inviolate as the rest of the pro-life plank.

Easy for you to say - you've already been born. Look at the post immediately before yours, by OneVike. Look at OneVike in the eye and tell him/her that and see how it flies.

It’s not all happy endings and sunshine when a rape victim carries a baby to term.

Carries a what to term?

Since when is it an acceptable moral principle to kill a child for the crime of his father?

The abortion killing is just a second act of violence against an innocent victim; the rape being the first act of violence against an innocent victim.

"The life of the mother" exception is the only legitimate exception in those extremely rare cases in which it might occur, because it would be in defense of one's own physical life. The law has always recognized the right of self defense of one's life, but since when is it permissible to kill one where both would otherwise live?

Cordially,

48 posted on 08/21/2012 5:54:17 AM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Melas

Why include “incest”? Either incest is rape, or it isn’t.


49 posted on 08/21/2012 6:06:47 AM PDT by eccentric (a.k.a. baldwidow)
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To: Truthsearcher
Which leads me to think that Mr. Akin has never been outside an abortion clinic in his life.

They're not "clinics". And yes, I have seen him outside the slaughterhouses, numerous times. I personally spent a night in jail with him and some others for non-violently attempting to rescue those being about to be killed.

Cordially,

50 posted on 08/21/2012 6:07:54 AM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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