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Vanity: Need help selecting a scope for an AR-15
vanity | 8/23/2012 | BerserkPatriot

Posted on 08/23/2012 10:23:44 AM PDT by BerserkPatriot

Looking for a scope for an AR-15 for overall duty [for a ‘friend’] – medium range tasks to CQB

I’ve more or less narrowed it down the choice to a Red Dot or Holographic Sight: Aimpoint, Trijicon ACOG or EOTech

What are the pros and cons of those three basic types? [A Trijicon ACOG may be above the price point, for example]

Which one of those three would you recommend?

Are there ‘Copies’ of these products from other [US] manufacturers that are worth consideration?

Looking to narrow down the choices.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: banglist; guns; optics; opticstalk; secondamendment
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Thanks for your advice in advance.
1 posted on 08/23/2012 10:23:53 AM PDT by BerserkPatriot
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To: BerserkPatriot

Also interested. I have had red dots that keep eating batteries when I forget to turn them off. I have a Catseye lighted reticle (same issue) which is ok for long range and relatively cheap, but short range suffers.


2 posted on 08/23/2012 10:30:19 AM PDT by Wildbill22
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To: BerserkPatriot
I want an EOTech Hybrid Holographic Site ...

I want an AR/M4 that is all-purpose ... close-quarter and long-range. The EOTech looks to be a good combination of a CQB holographic sight and a scope that can be flipped down for longer-range shooting. To be perfectly honest, I learned about it from Call of Duty (Heh. What can ya do?)

I've also considered getting an ACOG sight. Haven't had the opportunity to try-out either, yet, though I've heard good things about both.

SnakeDoc

3 posted on 08/23/2012 10:31:27 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("I've shot people I like more for less." -- Raylan Givens, Justified)
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To: BerserkPatriot

My best recommendation is the Trijicon ACOG ; bulletproof reliability, 4X magnification, excellent day/night utility, no batteries. As far as the copies go, you get what you pay for. The ACOG has great resale value, the replicas do not. They are expensive but so what? Aren’t we worth it?


4 posted on 08/23/2012 10:32:02 AM PDT by Chainmail (Warfare is too serious to be left to the amateurs)
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To: BerserkPatriot

I have an Aimpoint Comp ML2 that I am very pleased with.


5 posted on 08/23/2012 10:35:49 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: BerserkPatriot
What's your "friend"'s eyesight like?

Dot scopes are all the rage and they have their place - if you have 20-20 uncorrected vision. Many of us need some magnification and adding a second optic to the dot can get expensive not to mention making the rifle heavier.

We use the Primary Arms 3x compact scope on both of our ARs. Sub $200 and is a great scope out to 100 yards.

6 posted on 08/23/2012 10:39:48 AM PDT by grobdriver (Proud Member, Party of No! Nobama, No Way, No How!)
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To: BerserkPatriot

First, lets understand your definitions. To you, what is long range? 300 yrds might be a streach for some using a .223 but mid range for others (.308). Also be realistic with your own abilities and your shooting rig. A platform that gets 2 MOA from bench is not going to be 100% reliable at 600 yards, esp after you factor in human error.

I tend of favor holo sights. I shoot .308 so for long range (300+ yards), I want a BDC built in. In my hayday, I was good enough to be a designated marksman but I doubt I could make the really long range shots now. I question my ability to hit accurately beyond 500 yards.

Short range to me is 100 yrs or less. Basicly as long as the dot/retical covers a man sized torso target, I know it will be a hit. However, for short range with precision shooting, say 6” or less bullseye or head shot, I would want a 3 mill or smaller dot or a cross hair.

I also tend to think that you need enough power to reduce the distance to the sight picture of a 100 yard shot or better. A 600 yard shot would then require a 6x power scope. Others like a tighter picture and want a 50 yard sight picture. Your mileage may very. For hunting, I favor a 3x to 6x scope. Getting too much power can make for dark sight picture, and a very narrow range of view.

Just thinking out loud about my personal preferences.


7 posted on 08/23/2012 10:44:27 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: SnakeDoctor
I learned about it from Call of Duty

I thought it looked familiar!

8 posted on 08/23/2012 10:45:40 AM PDT by frogjerk (OBAMA NOV 2012 = HORSEMEAT)
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To: BerserkPatriot
The best one I have seen lately is the Leupold mark VIII CQB. Check out OpticsPlanet. They seem to have the best price.
9 posted on 08/23/2012 10:49:01 AM PDT by Glennb51
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To: BerserkPatriot

I’m an Aimpoint M2/M3/M4 fan, but I can see why EOTech fans are happy, as well.
For the Aimpoint, it has the strengths of durability, simplicity, and battery life.
It’s VERY tough, and I suspect it has the edge over the EOTechs, based on my experiences with both.
Simplicity. ONE KNOB, no buttons.
Battery Life. No contest.

The EOTech as a larger field of view, is holographic (which makes me dizzy at times), and the newer models have a much smaller footprint.

You can’t go wrong with either, so try both before you buy.


10 posted on 08/23/2012 10:51:10 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Chainmail

I use a Trijicon TA01 on my Class III AR-15s:
http://www.militarywarfighter.com/Trijicon_TA01_p/trijicon-ta01.htm

and

the BORS on Leupold Mk 4 4.5-14x50mm on my Barrett 82A1 .50cal BMG:
http://www.barrett.net/optics/bors

and

a 15” Barska 10-36x Zoom w/ 100mm Lens Sniper Scope on Class III AR10:
http://scopesniper.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/barska-sniper-scope.jpg

and

an Eotech 556.A65/1x on my Beowulf .50cal:
http://www.militarywarfighter.com/EOTech_516A651_p/eotech-516a651.htm


11 posted on 08/23/2012 10:54:18 AM PDT by carriage_hill (Harry Reid [PERVERT-NV] has Vickie-the-goat in lingerie & stiletto heels, tied-up in his office.)
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To: BerserkPatriot
Depending on what kind of money you want to spend, Trijicon is great quality and a great company. They are however quite expensive. Aimpoint has very good products in the RedDot category. Either way, I'd recommend LaRue Tactical (located in Texas) for the mounts.

LaRue Tactical

12 posted on 08/23/2012 10:57:21 AM PDT by VRWCmember
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To: BerserkPatriot

Been a fan of the EOTech for about 6 years now. Zeroed at 25 yards, rounds drop back into point of aim at 300 or so. At all points of the battle zero trajectory, the hit is either at or above the dot.

The ring and dot is great for older eyes. LARGE field of view. If a range is known, targeting can be done placing desired impact midway between the dot and the top of the ring (or bottom if beyond the 300-ish range). Same thing goes for snap windage. For close in, ring, target, press.

The newest model uses a single CR123 mounted horizontal relative to the bore axis. This arrangement is durable, and alleviates the early model problem of the sight winking out under recoil (corrected almost immediately with the addition of rubber holders for the battery springs).

All in all, this is preferred over the other dot or chevron sights (your mileage may vary). Very much worth the 5 bills or so to top your ar.

Good hunting.....


13 posted on 08/23/2012 11:08:51 AM PDT by petro45acp ("Don't" read 'HOPE' by L Neil Smith and Aaron Zelman...it will bring tears to eyes. BORE!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: BerserkPatriot

I’m waiting for delivery of the Optimod-EoTech w 3X magnifier. (single reticle version, w shorter footprint)

It’s the version made special for Optics Planet.

This -3 version was to be available last week, so I’m waiting for confirming e-mail.


14 posted on 08/23/2012 11:10:26 AM PDT by G Larry (Progressives are Regressive because their objectives devolve to the lowest common denominator.)
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To: BerserkPatriot
No magnification: Aimpoint Comp ML3 or M4

Magnification: ACOG TA31F 4x

EOTech: I own an EOTech 511, but I wouldn't buy it again if I could go back in time. If you do get an EOTech, make sure it's a model that uses CR123 batteries. Beware of the Chinese fakes out there and buy from a reputable optics dealer, like Optics Planet. Also, the EOTech magnifier is just goofy: With the magnifier and EOTech sight together, they weigh more and cost more than an ACOG and take up all the top rail space.

Inexpensive magnified: Leupold Mark AR 1.5-4x20mm

Less expensive red dot: C-More RTS, Zeiss Z-Point

Inexpensive red dot: C-More Railway

You could also mount a cheapie red dot on top of an ACOG, or on the rail using a 45 degree canted mount.

Save money by not wasting it on backup iron sights that you'll never use, need, or want.

15 posted on 08/23/2012 11:10:58 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: BerserkPatriot

Burris AR-332 is good for the price. under $300 on ebays.


16 posted on 08/23/2012 11:11:23 AM PDT by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: BerserkPatriot
Are you looking for magnification? What caliber from the AR? (medium distance for a .300 blackout isn't medium distance for a 5.56). I think the eotechs offer a better value than aimpoints, but aimpoints are a better design. Either works quite well. Trijicon makes nice scopes but are pricey.

I think the Nikon m223 1-4X20 AR kit offers the absolute best value for a magnified scope.

Wish list would be a US Optics paired with an aimpoint mini-dot. (in 6.5 Grendel of course)

17 posted on 08/23/2012 11:11:23 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: BerserkPatriot

Flagged this thread to the FR ‘banglist’.


18 posted on 08/23/2012 11:13:16 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: G Larry

oh...on “sale” for $900 if you don’t mind tan.

$1K in black.


19 posted on 08/23/2012 11:14:25 AM PDT by G Larry (Progressives are Regressive because their objectives devolve to the lowest common denominator.)
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To: BerserkPatriot

I currently have an EoTech 512 (the AA battery type) mounted on mine, and like it. The reasoning behind going for the AA, was in a SHTF scenario, those batteries would be hopefully more available. I love the open sight pattern from it.

Having said all that, yeah, I wouldn’t mind a nice scope too (like the combo posted above). But this AR was destined for sport shooting, and CQB, if it ever came...


20 posted on 08/23/2012 11:15:14 AM PDT by tickedoffnow (No more...)
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To: tickedoffnow

Solid copy on the 512 and AA batteries...

Hard not to like 7-11 resupply!


21 posted on 08/23/2012 11:19:46 AM PDT by petro45acp ("Don't" read 'HOPE' by L Neil Smith and Aaron Zelman...it will bring tears to eyes. BORE!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: frogjerk

I had heard of ACOG sights, holographic, red-dot, etc., and I’ve played with a few at gun shows.

But, the hybrid was completely new to me. I had to look-up whether it really existed, or whether it was something they had invented for the game (though COD is usually pretty good about using real tech — at least before the next game, which is intentionally futuristic).

SnakeDoc


22 posted on 08/23/2012 11:25:31 AM PDT by SnakeDoctor ("I've shot people I like more for less." -- Raylan Givens, Justified)
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To: The KG9 Kid

Agree on almost all of that, but BUIS on my red-dotted ARs is a must. I routinely practice stripping the optic off in a failure (ARMS QD mount) and flipping up the backup sights.

If you still have the eyes, practicing with backup iron sights is essential.


23 posted on 08/23/2012 11:26:27 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: BerserkPatriot

I have a Leatherwood CMR 1x to 4x on a Bushmaster m-4. I love the lighted reticle and when you put it on 1x the target acquisition is very fast. They run about $275 I think.


24 posted on 08/23/2012 11:27:52 AM PDT by technically right
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To: carriage_hill

Can’t fault your choices! I use a Zeiss Diavari on my PGM long-range precision rifle...


25 posted on 08/23/2012 11:28:23 AM PDT by Chainmail (Warfare is too serious to be left to the amateurs)
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To: BerserkPatriot
Look at the Burris AR-332 prism sight. You'll pay a lot less than you would for an ACOG or EOtech. It's a fixed 3X with a bullet drop reticle that illuminates in red or green. When you go without batteries, it has a black reticle. It comes ready to mount on either a rail or conventional AR carry handle. If you find the 3X too much for CQB applications, it does have rails of its own to put on a laser or other CQ arrangement...all for around $300.

If money is no object, go with the Elcan Specter, but you will, in all likliehood pay more for the unit than you did your rifle.

26 posted on 08/23/2012 11:29:36 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: BerserkPatriot

Mine has a Millet DMS? It can be used like a reflex in one power with or without the red circle and dot turned on so it is not useless like some when the battery is dead. It also can be turned up to 4 power for longer shots. Also the dot and circle is a calibrated moa size for range estimation and hold over.
http://www.millettsights.com/scopes/dms/


27 posted on 08/23/2012 11:36:18 AM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: SJSAMPLE

“but BUIS on my red-dotted ARs is a must”

I completely agree with you there. What if your batteries fail, and you can’t replace them? What if a (ok, REALLY a stretch here), EMP occurred?

I think you should have iron sights before anything, and learn to shoot with them.

I love my Troy Battle Sights.


28 posted on 08/23/2012 11:36:27 AM PDT by tickedoffnow (No more...)
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29 posted on 08/23/2012 11:38:49 AM PDT by RedMDer (https://support.woundedwarriorproject.org/default.aspx?tsid=93destr)
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To: tickedoffnow

ESPECIALLY if you spend less coin on a cheaper sight. I’ve used them casually and the mount or the electronics are FAR more prone to failure. MILSPEC does mean something.


30 posted on 08/23/2012 11:38:49 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: BerserkPatriot
medium range tasks to CQB

I suppose it depends on what "medium range" is, but the ACOG is certainly capable all the way out to the 5.56 round's effective range.

I like the Trijicon Reflex series of sights, particularly the one with the triangular reticle. The entire glowing reticle works like a red dot in CQB, but you can sight-in for longer ranges using the uppermost tip of the triangle to more precisely select an aiming point.

31 posted on 08/23/2012 11:43:11 AM PDT by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: Okieshooter

Very nice sighting system. But the vast majority of us who own an AR or four will never have reason to use more than rudimentary sights, or a simple reflex with backup iron sights. I hand a laser on mine, because I might end up using them at night, but such lasers are good for only closer ranges anyway, and shooting ‘off-hand’. A really useful reflex, made in Georgia, USA can be purchased for under sixty bucks and will be more than adequate if sighted in properly with back up sights integrated into the sighting picture.


32 posted on 08/23/2012 11:46:04 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: tickedoffnow; SJSAMPLE
"... What if your batteries fail, and you can’t replace them? What if a (ok, REALLY a stretch here), EMP occurred?"

You mean you don't have pop-up illumination flares in the cleaning kit well in your ARs buttstock for just such an occurrence? That's why I don't recommend 'CAR' stocks to people: No cleaning kit well for your pop-up flares, waterproof matches, emergency bandages, gold coins, and presumably, some weed.

:-}

Also, the Tritium in your ACOG would work even better now that all the lights across the landscape have gone out. No background clutter or light pollution at all.

... and Mr. SJSAMPLE, you're merely inventing a purpose for your backup irons. Use the edge of the your top rail as an emergency sight in case a zombie knocks off your optic with a lucky swing.

33 posted on 08/23/2012 11:56:48 AM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: The KG9 Kid

I can’t agree with your comment about CAR stocks either.
The cleaning kit isn’t the thing I worry about, but a readily available cleaning rod is a must, for punching stuck cases out of the barrel. I carry mine banded to my handguards, no problem. Otherwise, a carbine stock lets the user adjust to fit armor, clothing or space. And the SOPMOD version has two tubes capable of holding FAR more than the standard A1/A2 stock.

BUIS units are cheap, plentiful and come in a variety of sizes and knowing how to use them. I’ve even been in competitions where failure of the primary optic and reversion to the backup is required.


34 posted on 08/23/2012 12:01:28 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: The KG9 Kid
"Also, the Tritium in your ACOG would work even better now that all the lights across the landscape have gone out. No background clutter or light pollution at all."

While true, I really prefer the large sight picture of the EOTech's. Unless I'm truly looking through a magnified scope for a reason, I don't care for the "tunnel" effect. Loved your "weed" comment though...LOL....
35 posted on 08/23/2012 12:07:34 PM PDT by tickedoffnow (No more...)
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To: SJSAMPLE
Heh. Okay. I have an adjustable stock on my 'M4'. I don't need a cleaing kit well. :)

My 'AR' is not my go-to rifle anyway.

Some folks swear by having BUIS, but when the discussion comes up I tend to ask people where is their bayonet and bayonet lug if they really insist on having backups.

36 posted on 08/23/2012 12:10:23 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: tickedoffnow

My rig also has a Glock 19 and an ESEE-4 knife.
I also carry a pack of Lifesavers candy in my medkit. Just in case.

I’m backed-up on multiple levels.


37 posted on 08/23/2012 12:13:30 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

What? No MRE’s mentioned?? :)

LOL, actually laid out some money some time ago on a nice tactical vest. Cross draw included for my S&W M&P 9mm 4.25.

Lot’s of places to stuff munchies too!


38 posted on 08/23/2012 12:23:33 PM PDT by tickedoffnow (No more...)
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To: tickedoffnow

And weed.


39 posted on 08/23/2012 12:29:17 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: The KG9 Kid

Definitely weed.


40 posted on 08/23/2012 1:02:26 PM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SnakeDoctor

This hybrid is what I have on my ACR on Call of Duty. My favorite. Steady and accurate long and short distances. I can’t afford a scope for my real AR-15.


41 posted on 08/23/2012 1:09:54 PM PDT by BreezyDog (PLAN A: A Peaceful Restoration of the Republic.....PLAN B: A Restoration of the Republic)
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To: BerserkPatriot
A lot of good choices have been mentioned. So many good choices, it may all come down to personal preferences. I'd like to offer for consideration one that I'm fond of that hasn't been mentions yet, the Leupold 1x prismatic.

It's machined from solid aluminum, and almost indestructible. It comes with the crosshairs etched on a solid piece of glass, and solidly anchored, like the lenses. The "prismatic" comes from the use of internal prisms to adjust the crosshairs, rather than moving the crosshairs themselves. The illumination is provided by the ring (included) that mounts behind the turret. The crosshairs are always visible, with or without illumination.

I've had one for a few years, and just decided I need two more.

It's a tough, specialized scope, but it can fill a lot of niches.

42 posted on 08/23/2012 1:22:32 PM PDT by 300winmag (Overkill Never Fails)
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To: waterhill

(((ping))) for later.


43 posted on 08/23/2012 2:17:34 PM PDT by Envisioning (Call me a racist........, one more time..........)
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To: BerserkPatriot

Pardon my butting into your gun talk but I just happened to wonder if the NRA or other gun owners groups have special credit cards with their logos?


44 posted on 08/23/2012 3:08:53 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: MHGinTN

My AR-15 is used for coyote hunting and I need the ability to shoot at 200 yds or more sometimes and a one power reflex just won’t cut it for a coyote at those ranges. I do keep it at one power for quick close in shots most of the time because if I have a long shot I usually have time to crank it up.

By the way the AR-15 has become the weapon of choice for coyote callers, because it is extremely accurate like a bolt gun, but also gives the opportunity for fast follow up shots when you have more than one coyote come to the call.


45 posted on 08/23/2012 4:46:17 PM PDT by Okieshooter
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To: taxcontrol

My intent was to have an all around ‘Sport Utility Rifle’ of sorts for ranges out to around say 300 yards. I’ve got budgetary considerations to contend with as everyone else and unfortunately those factor into what I can choose.


46 posted on 08/24/2012 6:36:24 AM PDT by BerserkPatriot (Why is the Democratic National Committee waging a War on liberty?)
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To: petro45acp; All

Thank you for your responses and your recommendations.


47 posted on 08/24/2012 6:49:11 AM PDT by BerserkPatriot (Why is the Democratic National Committee waging a War on liberty?)
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To: BerserkPatriot

Take a look at the NcStar 3-9X40 Rubber Scope/Ruby Lens/Ring (SFR3940R) for a sub $50 scope. Comes with cross hair and a graduated reticle known as P4 sniper.

For CQB, set to 3x and just put the ring on target and float the cross hairs over the desired strike area.

For long range / precision shooting see how to use the reticle: http://www.ncstar.com/TechSup/P4_Sniper_Reticle.pdf

It requires some math to be good with it but it is based on the same principles as a mill-dot reticle. It does require you to know the drop of your round in inches and then you can estimate the stand off.

There are other factors you can get into such as vertical deflection angle for targets that are higher or lower than you, spin drift, cross wind, etc. But for most shots less than 300 yards they are not much of a consideration. In the 300 to 600 yard range, they can move the strike of the round from 0” to 6” depending on conditions. For ranges beyond 600 yards, you really need to know all the conditions that go into the shot and this is really the science / art of the sniper.

As always, practice practice practice. You can even take the scope off the gun and walk around town estimating distances. For the urban environment, get to know the inches of most objects (door with is 32 inches, front view of the human head left to right is about 9 inches, a concrete block is 8” x 16”, etc). For hunting, get to know the dimensions of your animal (standing backbone to belly is ??, frontal width is ??, etc). Practice calculating distances and knowing the ballistic drop of your round. Start by carrying a ballistic drop chart so you can be certain.

The pattern works like this for fast shot 300 yards or less (in calm wind conditions and flat shot, I have used this out to 600 yards):

What is my range? (object width / mill dots x 100) yards
What is my drop? (see chart, look up range, get the drop in inches - best if you can memorize this chart)
Us the drop as elevation hold off - how many mill dots UP do I need to raise the reticle.
If the wind is blowing hard and cross ways to your shot, move into the wind 2 inches
If the wind is blowing hard towards you, add 2” to the bullet drop.

This will get you VERY close to your target. Close enough that it is within the normal MOA of most people’s ability to hold steady.


48 posted on 08/24/2012 9:10:47 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: taxcontrol

Whoops - correcting a typo. Standard US door is 36” - not 32”.


49 posted on 08/24/2012 9:49:57 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: G Larry

Well CRAP!

Just call OP for order status.

Said EOTech has pushed out delivery for OPMOD EOT Hybrid w 3X G33 Magnifier, until 21 Sept......

oh well....more practice w the pop up sights.


50 posted on 08/24/2012 3:02:04 PM PDT by G Larry (Progressives are Regressive because their objectives devolve to the lowest common denominator.)
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