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A Turkish origin for Indo-European languages
Nature.com ^ | 8-23-2012 | Alyssa Joyce

Posted on 08/24/2012 8:04:40 AM PDT by Renfield

Languages as diverse as English, Russian and Hindi can trace their roots back more than 8,000 years to Anatolia — now in modern-day Turkey. That's the conclusion of a study1 that assessed 103 ancient and contemporary languages using a technique normally used to study the evolution and spread of disease. The researchers hope that their findings can settle a long-running debate about the origins of the Indo-European language group...

(Excerpt) Read more at nature.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science
KEYWORDS: anatolia; epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; indoeuropean; language; turkey
Using methods from evolutionary biology, the duo compared common words in 87 Indo-European languages, such as 'mother', 'hunt' and 'sky', to figure out how language ‘species’ were related to one another4. They traced the origins of Indo-European languages to 7,800–9,800 years ago, supporting the Anatolian hypothesis...
1 posted on 08/24/2012 8:04:45 AM PDT by Renfield
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping.

Proposed spread of language, animated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0pa7SPns8fQ


2 posted on 08/24/2012 8:06:40 AM PDT by Renfield (Turning apples into venison since 1999!)
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To: Renfield

The title is absurd: Turkish is an Altaic language.

Why folks outside the Turkish Republic accept the conceit of Ataturk and his political heirs that everything inside the bounds of the modern Republic of Turkey is “Turkish”, when most of the history and much of the culture even after the region was overrun by the Turks was Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, Roman, Persian,. . . always mystifies me. The sort of willful historical ignorance, endemic among Americans, that can’t see further into the past than WW II, I suppose.


3 posted on 08/24/2012 8:13:00 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Renfield
That Sanskrit is related to Latin, Greek, and other European languages was first realized in the late 1700s so a lot of this is not new and has been worked on by many scholars for a long time. The notion that the original homeland of the ancestral language from which Indo-European languages descended might be Turkey is also not new--but is less popular than other suggestions for where the original homeland was. I think the area north of the Black Sea is the most widely-accepted theory nowadays. The time frame for when the ancestral language (Proto-Indo-European) was spoken is usually put more recently than 5800-7800 B.C.

The ancient Anatolian branch of Indo-European, including Hittite, Luwian, and Palaic in the second millennium B.C., and some later languages such as Lydian, are rather different from the other languages and that branch seems to have diverged from the rest a little earlier. That does not seem to fit in with Anatolia being the original center from which all the later languages spread out.

4 posted on 08/24/2012 8:15:50 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Renfield

Pachalafaka sounds so romantic in Turkey.


5 posted on 08/24/2012 8:16:17 AM PDT by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: Renfield

While I don’t want to sound too literal, headline writers can be so ignorant.

“Turkish” refers to a country, a language group and a wide-spread ethnic group. All three have Indo-European roots, but the Article refers to Anatolia, not Turkey.


6 posted on 08/24/2012 8:18:29 AM PDT by jimtorr
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To: Renfield

The title of the article is misleading. A “Turkish origin” doesn’t imply geographical Anatolia but rather an origin among ethno-cultural Turkish groups from central Asia who eventually migrated to Anatolia, which then became “Turkey” (after themselves).


7 posted on 08/24/2012 8:18:36 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: The_Reader_David

True, Turkish ia an Altaic language but it spread into modern day Turkey from Asia. The languages spoken prior to that were not Altaic. The Turkish language has nothing to do with this article.


8 posted on 08/24/2012 8:20:26 AM PDT by Right Wing Puppy
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To: Renfield

Didn’t Noah’s boat land in Turkey after the Flood?


9 posted on 08/24/2012 8:23:22 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Right Wing Puppy

Did you read the second paragraph of my post?


10 posted on 08/24/2012 8:26:56 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David

Ataturks objective, and that of his nationalist predecessors, was to cleanse Turkey of all alternative cultures and create a homogenous, unified Turkish nation-state.


11 posted on 08/24/2012 8:31:30 AM PDT by buwaya
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To: Renfield
LOL. There were no Turks in Turkey 8000 years ago.

And oh and by the way, These modern day "Turks" are really just badly baptized Greeks anyhow. ...to paraphrase Doroshevich

12 posted on 08/24/2012 8:36:31 AM PDT by SeeSharp
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To: Renfield

See Genesis 10


13 posted on 08/24/2012 8:39:45 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

No it landed on the Mountains of Ararat. It could be in Turkey, Iraq or Iran(Persia).


14 posted on 08/24/2012 8:40:55 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Renfield

So now in addition to Astronomy, Mathematics, the Space Program, Brain Surgery, Nanotechnology and Spicy Take-Out Chicken, Muslims are getting credit for inventing the English Language too?


15 posted on 08/24/2012 8:41:04 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: buwaya

Yes, yes, I know that. But how is that relevant to the acceptance of his conceit that, for instance, the Ecumenical Patriarchate or some Persian ruins in far eastern Anatolia or the Greek, Armenian, or Kurdish citizens of the Republic of Turkey are “Turkish” by the rest of the world?


16 posted on 08/24/2012 8:42:20 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
So now in addition to Astronomy, Mathematics, the Space Program, Brain Surgery, Nanotechnology and Spicy Take-Out Chicken, Muslims are getting credit for inventing the English Language too?

But apart from Astronomy, Mathematics, the Space Program, Brain Surgery, Nanotechnology and Spicy Take-Out Chicken...what have the Muslims ever done for us?

17 posted on 08/24/2012 8:42:55 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: US Navy Vet

Then why are they looking at the Anatolian origins of the Indo-Europeon language instead of around the area or Iraq and Iran?

BTW, how many Ararats are there in the world?


18 posted on 08/24/2012 8:59:27 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Renfield

How is this possible when aryans/indo-iranians/indo-aryans and sanskrit came from india?


19 posted on 08/24/2012 9:02:51 AM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Genesis 8:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

It says the “mountains of Ararat” NOT nessarily on THE Mt Ararat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountains_of_Ararat


20 posted on 08/24/2012 9:03:50 AM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: US Navy Vet

Yes, I understand it says “mountainssssssss of Ararat” and not Mount Ararat itself. The mountains of Ararat don’t extend that far out to Iraq or Iran. From documentaries that I have watched in the past about Noah’s ark there are towns near Mt. Ararat and the mountains of Ararat that indicate that Noah did land close by.

What the linguists are saying about the Turkic origins of the Indo-European languages indirectly supports that story from the Torah (aka the Bible).


21 posted on 08/24/2012 9:33:27 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: US Navy Vet
That is an interesting connection since Mt. Ararat is on the eastern edge of the Anatolian Peninsula bordering modern day Turkey, Iran, and Armenia (not Iraq). One of those things that make you go "hmmmmm". The conventional wisdom has been that the Indo-European language group originated in the Indus River Valley in India.

And the other posters are correct that the Turkish language is a very late import from the Central Asian steppes with Semitic elements picked up from the Arabic Quran. The language was even (clumsily - Turkish needed a few vowels) written in Arabic script until Atatürk's reforms in the 1920's.

22 posted on 08/24/2012 9:38:55 AM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Kurdistan


23 posted on 08/24/2012 9:52:56 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: Jack Hydrazine; US Navy Vet
Not Mt Ararat. The mountains of Ararat/Urartu. Which when it got written down was only the deep purple core region around Lake Van near the modern Turkish/Iraq/Iranian border


24 posted on 08/24/2012 10:02:11 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Monarchy is the one system of government where power is exercised for the good of all - Aristotle)
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To: katana
The conventional wisdom has been that the Indo-European language group originated in the Indus River Valley in India.

Nope.

The conventional wisdom for some time now has been that it originated somewhere in Eastern Europe, perhaps in what is now the Ukraine or Kazakhstan. With the tribes spreading out from there east, west and south, reaching India as part of the Aryan invasion.

There is a noisy group of Indian nationalists who claim that the Aryans and their languages originated in India and went north and west from there, but they have remarkably little evidence to support their position, which AFAIK is held by no linguists or historians outside India.

25 posted on 08/24/2012 10:32:02 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

Was not aware of that but I will take your word for it. Interesting subject.


26 posted on 08/24/2012 11:10:14 AM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
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To: katana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory

The oddest part of this “controversy” is that the Indians involved seem to take it as a national insult to theorize that the Aryans invaded and conquered India. While Europeans are not at all offended by theories that the Aryans (or their western relatives) invaded and conquered Europe.


27 posted on 08/24/2012 11:29:05 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
If you consider that Tamil dialects are still spoken in Pakistan and Afghanistan, assumed to the language of the Happarians. It can also be assumed that Indo-European was introduced from the out side.
28 posted on 08/24/2012 11:40:50 AM PDT by Little Bill
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To: Buckeye McFrog

No. They predated the Muslims many thousand years. After all, even though now they own it, nobody claim Muslim built Constantinople.


29 posted on 08/24/2012 11:53:15 AM PDT by paudio (Akin shares one thing with Obama: Republicans of various stripes are against them)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

“What the linguists are saying about the Turkic origins of the Indo-European languages indirectly supports that story from the Torah (aka the Bible).”

for a study, and comments on a study about languages, referring to Anatolia (the place) in reference to orgins of Indo-European languages, it seems strange that any learned person would refer to them as either the “Turkish” (a modern nation) or the “Turkic” orgins, as the language “Turkish” is not native to Anatolia, but came from central Asia, around what is not Turkmekistan, which is wherefrom the “Turks’ that took over Anatolia came from

“Turkish” the language came along after the original “Indo-Europeans” migrated, radiating out from Anatolia

so, we can talk about the “Anatolian” origins of the Indo-European languages, without confusing the place, in history, with the modern day occupants of the area


30 posted on 08/24/2012 1:32:37 PM PDT by Wuli
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To: Renfield; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Renfield.

Of course, this is loopy on its face -- there's no way to trace geographical origin of a language without a vintage archive, and the oldest known writing (cave paintings) can't be read, for obvious reasons (no "paper trail", bilingual inscriptions, etc).
In her Plato Prehistorian: 10,000 to 5000 B.C. Myth, Religion, Archaeology, Mary Settegast reproduces a table which shows four runic character sets; a is Upper Paleolithic (found among the cave paintings), b is Indus Valley script, c is Greek (western branch), and d is the Scandinavian runic alphabet.
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
Story of Human Language, Course No. 1600
Taught by John McWhorter, Manhattan Institute, Ph.D., Stanford University
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


31 posted on 08/24/2012 4:35:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv; Renfield
Having been a linguistics student at the post grad levels, the most enlightening thing I learned was that 'Linguistics is the most unscientific of the sciences and the most inhuman of the humanities'. I'll add a corollary; it's also the most political.

Languages developed and changed from trade, migrations and war. Having been around a bit, there are different dialects in lesser developed countries about a two hour bus ride apart. In ancient days that was most likely a two hour trek apart.

We'll be counting the theories as archaeologists uncover something new (which really isn't) and linguists are brought in to divine some meaning and there'll be as many theories as all the days. That ought to give our successors a lot to dicuss in the future.
32 posted on 08/24/2012 5:08:23 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (74 days)
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To: BIGLOOK; Renfield; The_Reader_David; Verginius Rufus; P.O.E.; jimtorr; Zionist Conspirator; ...

Thanks BIGLOOK, and well said.

Here’s one from the FRchives that has many of those cool language tree diagrams and whatnot:

Unearthed Aryan cities rewrite history
The Australian | 04 Oct 2010 | The Sunday Times
Posted on 10/04/2010 12:15:28 AM PDT by Palter
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2601056/posts


33 posted on 08/24/2012 6:39:02 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Wuli
The Turkish language spread into Anatolia after the Seljuk Turk victory over the Byzantine Empire in 1071 at the battle of Manzikert. It's related to the other Turkic languages (mostly spoken east of the Caspian Sea) and more distantly to Mongolian. It has no connection with the Indo-European languages (apart from the possible borrowing of individual words from one language to another). There was an Indo-European language spoken in Chinese Turkestan in the Middle Ages, actually two related languages, called Tocharian A and Tocharian B, which are apparently closer to the European branches of Indo-European than they are to the Indo-Iranian branches...now extinct but known from some texts that were discovered.

There is a Turkish language called Gagauz spoken by 150,000 to 200,000 people in the Balkans, Moldova, and Ukraine. The speakers are Christians (mostly Orthodox, some Protestants) and supposedly do not differ in their DNA from neighboring speakers of other languages (Romanian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian--all Indo-European languages). Maybe they settled there before the period when that region was part of the Ottoman Empire.

34 posted on 08/24/2012 7:48:24 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: The_Reader_David

Because this stuff is in Turkey, the Turks call it Turkish, and many people tend to bend over backwards to refer to things in a country according to the way the countries’ current leaders want them to. Applies especially to third world countries. Some people bend over backwards doing this.

The Turks want us to go along with their calling Greek Orthodox things Turkish because calling them Greek would prick their ethnic chauvinist conceits.

It wasn’t this way in the past. Things were Greek, Mesopotamian or Anatolian in their proper context.


35 posted on 08/25/2012 12:09:50 AM PDT by buwaya
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To: SunkenCiv

Thanks for the link to the earlier thread. It was a veritable grove, I mean, trove of information.


36 posted on 08/25/2012 12:58:05 AM PDT by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: The_Reader_David

Turkish is a relative newcomer to Anatolia. Before the Turks arrived, there were Lydians, Lycians, Hittites, Luwians, etc and they spoke languages within the Indoeuropean subgroup called Anatolic Languages. Not closely related to modern Turkish at all.


37 posted on 08/25/2012 5:22:12 AM PDT by ZULU (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=D9vQt6IXXaM&hd)
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To: SunkenCiv; All
I like this reference:


38 posted on 08/25/2012 7:06:42 AM PDT by Theoria (Rush Limbaugh: Ron Paul sounds like an Islamic terrorist)
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To: ZULU

As young people would say, “no, duh!” And in between the times you point to and the Turkish conquest, most folks in Asia Minor spoke Greek, another Indo-European Language.

Why folks feel like posting things which are actually amplifications of the point I made as if they were correcting me, I really don’t know. As I pointed out, the title is stupid in the context of an article on linguistics and based on nothing other than kowtowing to the conceit of Ataturk and his political heirs that anything on the territory of the present Republic of Turkey is “Turkish”.


39 posted on 08/25/2012 10:58:25 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: The_Reader_David

Kalle hemera


40 posted on 08/25/2012 4:26:06 PM PDT by ZULU (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=D9vQt6IXXaM&hd)
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To: ZULU
Καλλη Ήμερα
41 posted on 08/25/2012 6:51:23 PM PDT by ZULU (See: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=D9vQt6IXXaM&hd)
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To: P.O.E.

:’)


42 posted on 08/26/2012 1:47:25 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Theoria

Hey, I think I’ll be stealin’ that.


43 posted on 08/26/2012 1:47:42 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Theoria; SunkenCiv

That’s a pretty cool graphic.


44 posted on 08/27/2012 12:33:49 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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