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[Indo-Euro]Language family may have Anatolian origins
Science News ^ | August 23rd, 2012 | Bruce Bower

Posted on 09/01/2012 6:51:05 AM PDT by Pharmboy

Indo-European tongues traced back more than 8,000 years to present-day Turkey

ANCIENT SPREADThe map shows the timing and geographic expansion of Indo-European languages proposed in a new statistical analysis. The red area in what’s now Turkey is a possible birthplace of the Indo-European language family more than 8,000 years ago.Remco Bouckaert et al. Indo-European languages range throughout Europe and South Asia and even into Iran, yet the roots of this widespread family of tongues have long been controversial. A new study adds support to the proposal that the language family expanded out of Anatolia — what’s now Turkey — between 8,000 and 9,500 years ago, as early farmers sought new land to cultivate.

A team led by psychologist Quentin Atkinson of the University of Auckland in New Zealand came to that conclusion by using a mathematical method to calculate the most likely starting point and pattern of geographic spread for a large set of Indo-European languages. The new investigation, published in the Aug. 24 Science, rejects a decades-old idea that Kurgan warriors riding horses and driving chariots out of West Asia’s steppes 5,000 to 6,000 years ago triggered the rise of Indo-European speakers.

“Our analysis finds decisive support for an Anatolian origin over a steppe origin of Indo-European languages,” Atkinson says.

(Excerpt) Read more at sciencenews.org ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: anatolia; blacksea; blackseaflood; epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; grandcanyon; greatflood; language; migration; noah; noahsflood
I did not see this posted yet...sorry if it already has been.
1 posted on 09/01/2012 6:51:11 AM PDT by Pharmboy
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To: blam; SunkenCiv

ping...


2 posted on 09/01/2012 6:52:24 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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To: Pharmboy

Hmmm. Ararat?


3 posted on 09/01/2012 7:21:40 AM PDT by Lee N. Field (Never argue eschatology with a crazy person.)
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To: Lee N. Field

So funny...that was one of my first thoughts...AND, IIRC, doesn’t Genesis speak about—or imply—that the Noahite sons started different languages?


4 posted on 09/01/2012 7:37:27 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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To: Pharmboy

The map depicts the spread of language exactly like described by the author Steven Collins in his books on the lost tribes of Israel.

see for example:
http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Tribes-Today-Steven-Collins/dp/0972584935

and:
http://stevenmcollins.com/homepage.php


5 posted on 09/01/2012 7:53:55 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: Pharmboy; blam; Renfield

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Pharmboy. Just adding to the catalog, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


6 posted on 09/01/2012 8:06:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: theBuckwheat

You’d have to explain how the sons got off the boat speaking Semitic (presumably) and ended up speaking Indo-European.

Linguists have speculated about a connection between the two groups but their arguments never convinced very many.


7 posted on 09/01/2012 8:08:28 AM PDT by DManA
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To: theBuckwheat
Your links were interesting and I learned more about the Scythians (whom I did not realize gave rise to the Germanic tribes). However, a middle eastern origin is not supported by genetic studies reported in wiki:

"A number of studies on ancient DNA recovered from Scythian kurgan burials were published in the 2000s.

"In a 2009 study, the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the second millennium BC. to the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R1a1-M17. The study authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages, the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue (or green)-eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people which might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization.[18]

"In a 2004 study, analysis of the HV1 sequence obtained from a male Scytho-Siberian's remains at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic revealed the individual possessed the N1a maternal lineage.[19] Mitochondrial DNA has been extracted from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic (Russia). Both remains were determined to be of males from a population who had characteristics "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of East Eurasian populations.[20]

"In a 2002 study, maternal genetic analysis of Saka period male and female skeletal remains from a double inhumation kurgan located at the Beral site in Kazakhstan was analysed. The two individuals were found to be not closely related and were possibly husband and wife. The HV1 mitochondrial sequence of the male was similar to the Anderson sequence which is most frequent in European populations. Contrary, the HV1 sequence of the female suggested a greater likelihood of Asian origins.[21]"

8 posted on 09/01/2012 8:37:33 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Aha...that’s why I did not find it [Turkish]. This is actually mis-labeled, since this language had nothing whatsoever to do with the Turks, as this went on about 8,000 years before the present-day Turkish ethnic group got to Anatolia.


9 posted on 09/01/2012 8:40:46 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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Here's one of my favorite loads of dung: Here's my 2010 take on "genetic bottlenecks":
10 posted on 09/01/2012 8:43:11 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Lee N. Field

There was a discovey some years ago in Denmark[?] of an ancient golden plate that shows Noah and his wife, etc. His wife there appears to be Chinese.{?}
I couldn`t find it anywhere in the net.


11 posted on 09/01/2012 9:12:01 AM PDT by bunkerhill7 (!- where?? who knew?)
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To: DManA; Pharmboy; theBuckwheat; Lee N. Field

Well said.

Scythians came out of Central Asia. Lots of people did. They spoke an IndoEuropean language. Lots of people did. And they did not give “rise to the Germanic tribes”. The Germanic tribes of Roman times were the Franks, who took over the old Celtic territory of Roman Gaul etc, and their distant relatives we know as the Germans crowded in from behind them. Yes, they’ve fought wars for centuries — do you get along with all of your relatives? ;’) ;’)

Some of the Scythians’ closest ancient relatives were the Alans, who arrived around the same time as the Huns, i.e., late- and post-Roman times, and they dwindled down into the Ossetic population. The Alans probably were just the latter-day descendants of the Scythians, and the Huns roared in and kicked their asses. Putin’s Soviet Union, oops, I mean Russia pretends to be really concerned about the Ossetians and invaded Georgia to carve off a piece of Georgian territory as a buffer, enclave, and puppet regime/client state to host some of the length of a pipeline.

The Scythian heyday was right near the end of the Assyrian Empire, and they helped midwife that transformation. Hundreds of years later the Roman author Ovid was exiled to the Roman frontier area north of the Black Sea by the Emperor Augustus (never piss off the emperor) and lived among the Scythians, who were no longer very fearsome. He joked (or lamented) that he no longer dreamed in Latin, but in Scythian.

The Scythians’ other close relatives were the Sarmatians; during the Roman cooling (natural climate change) they entered from the steppe, collided with Rome, and were systematically flanked into an enclave from which they couldn’t just ride out — the Romans may have learned from the Persian failure to round up the Scythians, centuries earlier — and their cavalry was pressed into the Roman army’s auxiliary military system and moved to, for example, Britain. The women and children were auctioned off into slavery all over the empire.

Their apparent complete disappearance continues to baffle historians, DNA mavens, and Noachian flood fans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetic_language

History of the Vandals (mentions the Alans as non-Germanic descendants of the Scythians and as allies of the Vandals)

http://www.roman-empire.net/articles/article-016.html

an okay map:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mnKZiPn6zak/Tcm3-78XCJI/AAAAAAAABBQ/4lmjlVaXHdc/s1600/scythia.png


12 posted on 09/01/2012 9:20:16 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: bunkerhill7

No trace of it? Imagine, something that amazing just vanished from the net.


13 posted on 09/01/2012 9:22:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

I never saw it in the net. I think it was in newspapers in early 1990`s before the net.


14 posted on 09/01/2012 12:07:33 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 (!- where?? who knew?)
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To: DManA

The three wives of the sons got off the boat speaking different “mother tongues” which they taught to their children.

P.S. The DNA evidence bears this out as well, based on an article I seem to recall.


15 posted on 09/06/2012 8:11:26 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Pharmboy; SunkenCiv; blam
hmmm... 6000 BC.

It's plausible, but then we have the Hurrians (ancestors of present day Georgian peoples) who are there in the same Anatolia plains and who get conquered by the Hitties around 2500 BC.

Also, the Greece substrate (Pelagesians?) were non-indoeuropean in language yet seem to have been pushed south by indoeuropeans coming from the north.

16 posted on 09/26/2012 11:59:17 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Pharmboy
The term "Scythian" is vague -- it basically means people from a place, the place being north of Greece

At different times this has meant ethnically different peoples -- from Irani Sarmatians and Alans (ancestors of modern day Ossetians and plausibly Croatians) to Slavic peoples to Germanic Heruli, goths etc.

Just like the term Phoenician -- the people who lived in what is called Phoenicia didn't have a common identity but were Canaanites related to the Hebrews and spoke a semitic tongue

17 posted on 09/27/2012 12:01:55 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Pharmboy
The entire area from Germania to what is now Uighuristan/Xinjiang was indo-european, of various i-e types.

The Turkic people came later, around the 3rd century after being pushed by the Han Chinese

What is now Central Asia was, until the Mongols, Greater Iran

The Mongols slaughtered perhaps 75% of the Irani population and this was replaced by Turkic peoples

Also, many present day Turkic peoples are not really Turkic in ethnicity -- like the Turks who have majority Greek/Anatolian blood, to Azerbaijanis who are by blood Irani, to Uzbeks who are a mix but more Irani.

18 posted on 09/27/2012 12:04:42 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Pharmboy
The present day "Turks" are hardly Turkic by ethnicity, only by language. It's like how a dominant language group imposes its language on the rest -- as in Azerbaijan or Egypt or Berber North Africa and Turkicizes (or Arabizes) the peoples

the English did the same in cornwall, Wales, Scotland and Ireland to a greater or lesser extent and the French did the same in southern France, Brittany etc.

Strangely enough in other places it didn't work -- as in the Bulgars, another Turkic people who became completely Slavicized.

19 posted on 09/27/2012 12:06:59 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: SunkenCiv; DManA; Pharmboy; theBuckwheat; Lee N. Field
The Germanic tribes of Roman times were the Franks, who took over the old Celtic territory of Roman Gaul etc, and their distant relatives we know as the Germans crowded in from behind them.

well, not completely. The Germanics were divided into North, West and East Germanics

Around the time of Christ, the North Germanics like the Swedes, Danes, Norwegians lived in central or northern Sweden and in Norway.

What is now Denmark was the land of the Angles, Jutes, Heruli, Rutians etc., while northern Netherlands was Frisian and the parts of present day Poland around the Vistula river was Goth (the Goths or Geats having originated from the Gothen area of south-east Sweden)

the Goths moved east to what is now Ukraine and towards what is now Romania, taking over depopulated lands (after Trajans genocide of the Thracian/Dacian peoples), while the Heruli moved to the mouth of the river Don and fought the Sarmatians and Alans. The Sarmatians also moved west to what is now Austria

And the Angles and Jutes seem to have packed up and left to England (along with the Heruli who seem to have moved back to Denmark around the 300s), while the Goths separated into Eastern and Western Goths (Visigoths and Ostrogoths) and moved into the Roman Empire

at the same time the Langobards from northern Denmark moved into Italy to become the Lombards and the Burgundians from the Bergen Island between Sweden and Denmark moved to eastern France

The Franks were a coaliation of various tribes, like the Marcommani were or the Alamanni were

The Franks were the originators of both France and German -- Western Francia became France and Eastern Frankia became the Holy Roman Empire of Germania. The middle, Lotharingia was the origin of the low land countries

20 posted on 09/27/2012 12:19:40 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: SunkenCiv; DManA; Pharmboy; theBuckwheat; Lee N. Field
The Alans probably were just the latter-day descendants of the Scythians, and the Huns roared in and kicked their asses

true, and of the Cimmerians and the tribe that killed Cyrus the Great. They were Irani peoples who invaded the Fertile crescent by invading through the Gates of the Caucasus

The Sarmatians and Alans were slavicized or Germanized or Latinized as they moved.

21 posted on 09/27/2012 12:21:50 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
African click language 'holds key to origins of earliest human speech'
22 posted on 09/27/2012 6:47:39 AM PDT by blam
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To: Cronos; SunkenCiv

Thanks for adding quality info to this thread...would either of you have a good book to read on the subject of tribal Europe and their movements?


23 posted on 09/27/2012 9:22:59 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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