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Reinstating draft would end needless conflicts
Fairfax Times ^ | 8/31 | Dave Ryan

Posted on 09/15/2012 1:11:26 PM PDT by vet7279

Whatever one thinks of the morality of the draft, I believe that the war will continue to drag on as long as upscale Americans see it as an abstract issue that has little relevance to their day-to-day lives. Unless their toilet overflows, these denizens of the Nike and Chablis milieu of our society seldom have any meaningful contact with, or concern for, the strata that furnishes the bodies to be killed or mutilated in our military crusades.

(Excerpt) Read more at fairfaxtimes.com ...


TOPICS: History; Military/Veterans; Reference; Society
KEYWORDS: draft; military
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1 posted on 09/15/2012 1:11:30 PM PDT by vet7279
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To: vet7279

Ain’t gonna happen!


2 posted on 09/15/2012 1:14:55 PM PDT by Repulican Donkey
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To: vet7279

I’m not going to debate whether this is wrong or right but I have a lot of doubt that the draft will ever be reinstated again. It would destroy any politician who voted for it. Even Charlie Rangel who has brought it to a vote multiple times has voted against it himself.


3 posted on 09/15/2012 1:15:50 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: vet7279

heck make everyone serve three years starting when they get out of high school no exceptions ...then all the politicians will have had to defend this country


4 posted on 09/15/2012 1:16:13 PM PDT by jrd (DO AWAY WITH THE EPA)
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To: vet7279

Instead of a draft how about a law that requires all soldiers over seas be armed and required to return fire and any politician who orders otherwise be imprisoned for life.


5 posted on 09/15/2012 1:16:29 PM PDT by enduserindy (Conservative Dead Head)
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To: vet7279

The liberals are worried the normal male voluteers are not going into the anti Christian sodomy voluntarily?

Draft their butts, baby!


6 posted on 09/15/2012 1:19:39 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: vet7279

I would say our volunteer forces over the last 30 years are as fine an Army as ever took the field of battle. You don’t mess with that.


7 posted on 09/15/2012 1:21:03 PM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

I see no reason to believe that the draft prevents wars.


8 posted on 09/15/2012 1:22:41 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: vet7279

The draft should have never stopped. I doubt it will ever come back, too many would flee to avoid it.


9 posted on 09/15/2012 1:23:00 PM PDT by Venturer
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To: jrd
There are too many people to have everyone serve in the military for three years after graduatiog from high school. How big a military do you want? There are 11 million males age 15-19. Assuming there are about 3 million males reaching 18 each year wth say 2 million being able to serve physically and mentally, how would we be able to absorb and afford so many people in the military.

And would you draft women?

10 posted on 09/15/2012 1:24:14 PM PDT by kabar
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To: vet7279
NO NO NO NO NO NO

I served when the draft was in place, and it was a DISASTER for the military. And the people that want to reinstate it almost universally want to destroy the magnificent military we have now. Forcing a bunch of goof-off, malcontents into the military insures a weak, and left leaning military - exactly what the scum-bag liberal function wants!

11 posted on 09/15/2012 1:24:14 PM PDT by I cannot think of a name
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To: vet7279

Before we even entertain debating this issue on the merits - We should note that the writer asserts opinion, not fact, and his fundamental premise is wrong. The children of the poor and disadvantaged DO NOT make up a disproportionate share of the all-volunteer force.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/08/who-serves-in-the-us-military-the-demographics-of-enlisted-troops-and-officers


12 posted on 09/15/2012 1:25:12 PM PDT by LouD
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To: Venturer
I prefer taxing the general economy to pay the soldiers and sailers a reasonable wage.

The draft is slavery ~ pure and simple.

13 posted on 09/15/2012 1:25:24 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Venturer

The volunteer force is far better than the draft military, which I served in. Given the amount of training necessary to master the new technology, we can’t afford a revolving door military. And the numbers just don’t work. Most people would never be drafted given the manpower requirements versus the numbers available.


14 posted on 09/15/2012 1:28:02 PM PDT by kabar
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To: vet7279

First, the draft is involuntary servitude.

Second, the military doesn’t want it. Professional warriors have always had contempt for conscripts.

Third, the constitution of a military should not be such that it is useless, as those proposing a draft would like to make it.


15 posted on 09/15/2012 1:28:14 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: vet7279

Unless there is a nuclear war a draft is not going to be acceptable to the American people. IT has to get to that level seriousness first before our youth are even willing to undergo the hardships of compulsory service.

We simply have spent far too long without any sight of warfare on home soil to be able to handle the reality of combat.


16 posted on 09/15/2012 1:30:50 PM PDT by Bayard
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To: vet7279

How does reinstating the draft end endless conflicts?
All that would do is have a bunch of solders who where conscripted to fight in endless conflicts.


17 posted on 09/15/2012 1:32:44 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Venturer; All
Agreed!
If it is not important enough for everyone to go, then nobody goes!
I think most missed the point of the editorial. The premise that the wealthy/elitists are the ones that the politicians are really voting to support and they are NOT entering the military is the reason these "wars" last so long. Imagine if BO's daughter was being deployed? How long would it take him to withdraw or protect our forces?
18 posted on 09/15/2012 1:34:51 PM PDT by vet7279
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To: vet7279

I know it’s quaint of me,
But the 13th Amendment is short, and crystal clear.

“Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.


19 posted on 09/15/2012 1:36:54 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: vet7279
Reinstating the military draft

Libtards never seem to get tired of confusing the difference between initiation of force and voluntary actions and volitional choices.

20 posted on 09/15/2012 1:38:09 PM PDT by mjp ((pro-{God, reality, reason, egoism, individualism, natural rights, limited government, capitalism}))
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To: I cannot think of a name

That is right, the draft yields a weak, left leaning, impotent military. Just like the Israeli Military. Oops, maybe not.

I served during the draft, and from where I sat, it worked just fine.

I say bring it back and every family will have some “skin in the game”, and will think long and hard about having American blood shed for gang wars in 3rd world countries.


21 posted on 09/15/2012 1:41:02 PM PDT by wrench
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To: vet7279

Like Vietnam??


22 posted on 09/15/2012 1:46:57 PM PDT by CodeToad (Be Prepared...They Are.)
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To: wrench

Like it stopped our involvement in WW1, Korea and Vietnam?

The draft wasn’t even popular back when people thought everyone loved it.


23 posted on 09/15/2012 1:56:03 PM PDT by VanDeKoik
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To: vet7279

So...force our kids to server under obama? FO...


24 posted on 09/15/2012 2:04:47 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: VanDeKoik

No, it wasn’t popular, but then again we weren’t running around being the world’s police force either.

Back during the draft it actually took an act of congress to get involved in a war, not just done on a whim as today. (Does Libya, Bosnia, and soon to be Syria sound familiar?)


25 posted on 09/15/2012 2:05:23 PM PDT by wrench
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To: vet7279

“Imagine if BO’s daughter was being deployed”

Please,, Al Gore finally had to go during the draft days, and SENATOR Gore sr. made sure his tour was short and safe.They will take care of their own, even if they are “drafted” (wink wink,,nudge nudge)

And theres still the problem that it is the ultimate in involuntary servitude. Specifically and clearly prohibited by the 13th Amendment. NO exceptions were placed in there for military service.


26 posted on 09/15/2012 2:08:40 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: vet7279

Agree.

We should reissue draft numbers. The numbers would be issued in accordance with the income of the person and/or their parents, women included.

Like Obama’s tax policies, the highest incomes would go to the top of the list. This would also include those $100,000+ college professors.

Also, those who can work but won’t, like the Occupy drones, would go to the top, as would all the college students campaigning for Obama. They should all be happy to carry their benefactor’s flag into battle.


27 posted on 09/15/2012 2:13:22 PM PDT by oldbill
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To: cripplecreek

Why not debate its rightness or wrongness. I’ll go first. Not only is the draft wrong, it is illegal. Not only is there no delegated draft power, but it is not necessary for any other power and violates the ban on involuntary servitude.


28 posted on 09/15/2012 2:14:05 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: vet7279

There was never a draft in peace time, right?

There really isn’t a draft now, although I realize men still have to register.

At the rate things are going I wouldn’t stop that right now.

I also agree with the other person who said you can’t draft everybody, it’s just too many people.

And forget that Ameri-corps idea. We need to be downsizing gov’t, not expanding it in any way.

Clearly our current problems with Muslims/Sharia are not going to be solved on the battlefield. Our future problems with them.....well, the idea is to avoid future problems, but right now I’m not feeling too optimistic.


29 posted on 09/15/2012 2:14:39 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: Tublecane

Go ahead and debate it. I’m not going to.


30 posted on 09/15/2012 2:15:25 PM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: vet7279

I served honorably.When I turned 18 there was no requirement to register for selective service. That changed a few years later (back dated!).
Why are females not required to register? Why has the military removed enlisted man clubs (allowed to drink at 18..and drinking age during my youth) from the military installations? Why does the military bow to muslim rules about alcohol in muslim countries?
I wave with my left hand.


31 posted on 09/15/2012 2:16:30 PM PDT by Fully Awake DAV (Navy Vet when homosexuality was not tolerated)
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To: kabar

interesting numbers you have there...we need to do something to turn the youth around the military is a good start what would you suggest?


32 posted on 09/15/2012 2:17:36 PM PDT by jrd (DO AWAY WITH THE EPA)
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To: vet7279

Here’s a couple of alternatives. Pay soldiers in combat units the wage it takes to attract all you need. A PFC machine gunner should make over 100k a year.

Crazy? National need comes first? Then in wartime why don’t we pay the CEO and Board of Lockheed a colonels pay, or cancel their DOD contracts? And everyone on the production lines gets say, E-4 or E-5 pay. Do it for the duration.
How about congress and the president are immediately reduced in pay to the level of a PFC for the duration?

Funny, the only ones exected to practically donate their labor, and often their lives are the grunts. No draft. When theres a shortage of grunts, it’s funny how free marketeers, and socialists alike start waving the flag. It never crosses their mind that “you have to pay those wages to attract the talent you want”.

A draft is nothing more than use of gunpoint and force, to circumvent the wage the free market would set.


33 posted on 09/15/2012 2:20:45 PM PDT by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office.)
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To: circlecity
I would say our volunteer forces over the last 30 years are as fine an Army as ever took the field of battle. You don’t mess with that.

Bingo, and I have personal experience in my early military career at a time when draftees were still a presence in the ranks as the Army was transitioning to an all volunteer force. The difference in force quality and effectiveness over those 30 years in comparison to my first few years in uniform is like night and day.

34 posted on 09/15/2012 2:23:01 PM PDT by TADSLOS (Conservatism didn't magically show up in Romney's heart in 2012. You can't force what isn't in you.)
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To: Repulican Donkey
Typical liberal BS. Makes the same accusations that the anti-draft people used to make about the rich kids not getting drafted but turns it around and says the rich kids don't volunteer. Since the 60’s I've known plenty of kids from well to do families that have been drafted and volunteered for service.
35 posted on 09/15/2012 2:23:43 PM PDT by fella ("As it was before Noah, so shall it be again")
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To: cripplecreek

I sorta see the authors point, but it’s like extinguishing a fire by instead of dousing it with water throwing fire on it and letting it burn out on its own. Which is stupid. But some people can’t get over the tact that the modern mass army is attractive to the poor, and they want the richer to suffer for it.

There is something to this, in that in the old days war was for princes to run and the nobility and mercenaries to fight. Unsurprisingly they were of relatively limited scope, shorter duration, and les cost. But that was before democracy, industrialism, mass ideology, propaganda, etc. You can’t go hack by throwing richies in the mix. That world is gone.

More to the point is money. We can’t fight endless wars if we’re bankrupt, or not as many and not forever. And don’t worry, we are bankrupt; most of us just don’t know it yet.


36 posted on 09/15/2012 2:25:36 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: DesertRhino

Too bad you forgot Article 1, that says the Congress shall have the power: “to raise and support armies, . . . to provide and maintain a navy;”

Lest you draft opponents get carried away, we won World War II with draftees.

Recent Defense Secretary Gates commented that “for a growing number of Americans, (especially for the celebrated and powerful), service in the military, no matter how laudable, has become something for other people to do.”

With Democrats, hatred for and avoidance of the military is the norm. But too many conservatives, and Freepers, don’t care much for military service themselves.


37 posted on 09/15/2012 2:26:38 PM PDT by oldbill
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To: jrd

“then all the politicians will have to defend thus country”

I’m not sure what proportion of the armed forces now can honestly be said to directly defend the country, but certainly that ratio would suffer by bloating the services to such a ridiculous size. Mostly future politicians would get practice being bureaucrats.


38 posted on 09/15/2012 2:29:17 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: jrd

Enslaving youths is not a good way to turn them around. First of it’s just wrong. Second of all you may stop them from being fat and playing video games and chasing tail for discreet periods of time, but you won’t turn them into Johnny Dogoods. Likelier you’d corrupt the military.


39 posted on 09/15/2012 2:36:50 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: I cannot think of a name

We have enough issues with first term enlistees coming out of our present society. The last thing we need is a bunch of draftees that don’t want to be there. Add to that the current size of the military and the draft would be so small it wouldn’t do any of the things the proponents want it to do.


40 posted on 09/15/2012 2:37:32 PM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: vet7279

There are always people who think it’s just fine to make us all property of the state. Like Obama said, government is the one thing we all belong to!


41 posted on 09/15/2012 2:37:44 PM PDT by BfloGuy (Without economic freedom, no other form of freedom can have material meaning.)
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To: vet7279

My son spent 5 honorable years in the Marine Corps (E5) including a tour to Iraq. Like most Marines, he was a combat soldier. The last thing I would have wanted was for him to have some saggy pants africanhyphenamerican draftee from Detroit having his back. I don’t want any of our warriors, USMC or otherwise, to be in that position. We took a hell of a beating from the homegrown communist trash because of the draft during the Vietnam War (not conflict) and their crap gave aid and comfort to the enema. Never again.


42 posted on 09/15/2012 2:42:31 PM PDT by RushLake (We are not necessarily voting for Romney so much as we are voting against Maobama.)
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To: wrench

“we weren’t running around being the world’s police force”

Yes we were. I think Korea might have literally been referred to as a “police action.” Containment had more in common with policing the world. Japan attacked us largely because we slapped them for invading China and acting like we were the gatekeepers of the Pacific (ask yourself what out navy was found on Hawaii, anyway) . The Germans posed no direct threat to us, aside from to transatlantic shipping which was fine until it wasn’t, even though they declared war. We fought them twice more because they were supposedly guilty for starting it and were fighting it criminally.

You may be partially right about the congressional act part; I’d have to check Korea. But we haven’t declared war since WWII. Open-ended vague commitments held for Vietnam as much as for Iraq/Afghanistan.


43 posted on 09/15/2012 2:49:08 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: vet7279

I was a draftee. Viewed it as my duty to serve and did so to the best of my ability. By the time I got to be truly effective it was time to go home -— and that’s just as true of the “shooting action” part of it as well as my normal MOS.

Years later as I read more and more about the war I was in I came to understand how ineptitude and duplicity got us into it in the first place and in the end what a nearly total waste it was. Thank God I wasn’t wounded or killed, as the “sacrifice” would truly have been in vain.

That said, it I believe it was for me and most everyone I know in the same situation a growing, maturing, character building experience -— and one that taught me to NEVER again trust any government including ours.

So, while the idea of everyone owing their country military service arguably has certain attractions, I doubt the American public will be any less manipulable by virtue of bringing back the draft, and it would certainly lower the overall effectiveness of our military.


44 posted on 09/15/2012 2:49:59 PM PDT by Vesparado (The American people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard --- HL Mencken)
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To: jocon307

What’s peacetime? It’s not peacetime now. Probably hasn’t been since 1941.


45 posted on 09/15/2012 2:50:56 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: DesertRhino; All
Rhino, I like connecting the military wage scale to GS pay scale somehow.

But my biggest issue (for lack of a better term) is the troops are deploying time and time again some have served more time in the ME than they have been at home, that's just not right. We tout that we "support the troops" and that we are patriotic etc. Exactly what does that mean? If we are unwilling to commit our own to fight for the country, but it is ok if the kid down the street goes, how are we different than the left? Is it really all talk? The military is the easiest place in the world to be successful, so if one cannot go in for 18 months and do as he/she is told, then they should get a less than honorable discharge and have to deal with the consequences. Right now, it is backwards. If you served you have the social branding placed on you by the politicians, media and the left.

We simply cannot continue this way.
46 posted on 09/15/2012 2:51:55 PM PDT by vet7279
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To: Tublecane

Interesting that the Germans couldn’t make it 20 miles across the English Channel but supposedly posed a threat to us ...

I suppose one could argue there some sort of obligation to keep supporting the S. Vietnamese after Kennedy destroyed their government by letting Diem get whacked. Whether it needed to go so far as half a million US troops and 58,000 dead is another matter, IMHO.


47 posted on 09/15/2012 2:54:47 PM PDT by Vesparado (The American people know what they want and they deserve to get it good and hard --- HL Mencken)
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To: Tublecane

well whats your solution


48 posted on 09/15/2012 2:57:14 PM PDT by jrd (DO AWAY WITH THE EPA)
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To: oldbill

That is rank sophistry. The draft is not necessary to raise and support an army or provide and maintain a navy. We have those now without a draft, duh. Raising an army via draft is also not proper, since it violates the 13th amendment.

“We won WWII with draftees”

Oh, really? I guess they can do anything, then./s

“service in the military...has become something for other people to do”

So it was also for almost all Americans for the majority of US history. So it should be in a free republic that isn’t the world’s police fighting perpetual wars for perpetual peace.


49 posted on 09/15/2012 2:59:48 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: vet7279

I sometimes wonder if the political system envisioned by Robert Heinlein in Starship Troopers wouldn’t be better than what we have now. Only those who served in the military were considered Citizens with full voting rights. Everyone else was a civilian. If you weren’t willing to risk your life for your country you didn’t get a say in setting government policy.


50 posted on 09/15/2012 3:14:23 PM PDT by Malone LaVeigh
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