Skip to comments.X marks the spot: Walter Elliot on his use of ancient art of divination
Posted on 09/17/2012 11:50:46 AM PDT by Renfield
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“Too late. You are a devil’s minion now.”
My husband does it. He uses a Y shaped branch for water and metal rods for metal. I thought it was a bunch of “bleep” so one day I covered my living room floor with newspapers and hid 3 quarters and told him to find them and he did!!!
IMO you are comparing apples to oranges. The scripture you quoted about “one who uses divination” is specifically talking about a fortune-teller. My God-fearing Christian grandmother would use a willow branch to find artisian wells for family and friends. It was a priceless gift to the poor folks in the country back in the hard times. She and Pawpaw picked cotton for a living.
Never seen it, don’t know, but I kinda hope it’s real.
Superstition? I've tried it. You apparently have not. Who is basing their claim more on actual, repeatable observations: you or me?
Maybe instead, you could explain to me why that method is not in widespread use by most power companies and underground locators?
Maybe because modern equipment is more accurate and reliable? (I already told you that an underground locator showed me the technique.)
I suggest you try it. I'm talking about the metal rods. I was dubious, too, until I tried it, and found that it worked reliably.
Every house I’ve ever built, the well sites were witched, both of them, main site and “repair” site in the event of a failed well. They didn’t ask me, they just did it. It’s the norm here.
Same with my parent’s houses, one of which is on a high plateau below a cliff at the base of a mountain. The well had to be punched through bedrock. All wells there are punched and very deep out of necessity. Good water, expensive well.
Does it “work?” I don’t know but have never had a well fail.
It is used in the field a whole lot more often than most people know. I was a line locator for a major oil and gas company for ten years. My tool was this:
On the rare occasion that I would get stumped, invariably an old pipeliner would go get his rods out of the truck, walk up and say, "Your pipeline is right here." What I never saw in those ten years was for the pipeliner to miss.
I am a Mechanical Engineer. Graduated with Honors. I have no superstitions.
I have held two slender metal bent rods and walked across a yard, and the hair on the back of my neck stood up when they twisted in my hands. I was on top of a gas line. “Witch Sticks”, they called them.
Say what you want, I’ve experienced it.
I have seen it done. We were consulting with an Engineer for the local utility company about how to route power into a location, and I mentioned we had to find some underground conduits. This guy whips out these two telescoping rods that had handles, and proceeds to walk around over the site. I start laughing cause I thought he was nuts.
He points out a spot and says the line crosses the road right here, and there is some sort of junction box underground at this point. I tell him that is highly unlikely because it is too far away from where it should be. I think he is full of sh*t, but we hook up our electronic cable tracer to some exposed wires and inject a signal into them.
As we walk along with the hand held tracer, we encounter a tone at exactly the spot he had marked in the dirt with his foot. When we dug it all up, it was just as he had said.
I asked him how it works, and he gave me some nonsense about magnetic fields and such. (I do Electronic Engineering) I concluded he didn't know how it works and was just making stuff up to cover up for the fact that he didn't know what he was talking about.
I don't know what to think about it. It looks like total crap to me, but he did accurately place that underground conduit and junction box. I am willing to entertain the notion that there may be some as yet unexplained reason why this stuff might work. I would like to see some experiments conducted.
What I saw was such an unlikely occurrence that I am willing to give the idea the benefit of the doubt.
There are plenty more scriptures warning about divination.
“My God-fearing Christian grandmother...” may not have thought through the implications of what she was doing to their logical end.
There is no scientific evidence backing any physical mechanics for dowsing—none, zero, zilch. That leaves one—and only one option—it is accomplished via some supernatural force.
Divination (as it is used in the Biblical passage I quoted)
means to obtain knowledge from a spirit. Dowsing fits that definition perfectly, since the knowledge is not obtained from a physical source, but rather a spiritual source.
Again, since the knowledge is NOT coming from a physical source, where do you think the knowledge is coming from; who do you think is controlling the dowsing rods; what supernatural force causes the dowsing rods to bend?
Do you plan to quote "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" as well?
God, obviously, has the final say when it comes to the meaning of scripture. But, I doubt he intended us to ignore it altogether, since he gave it to us for a reason.
Think about what you just said.
There has got to be a huge (as in HUGE) market for equipment that locates water underground. Anyone that put a device on the market that could do that would make a fortune.
Yet, you just said no such commercial device exists.
What that tells me is that the dowsing "technology" doesn't work. Because if it did, someone would have put it in a box and started selling it commercially for big-bucks.
The agenda sounds more like a spiritual new-age conference than a scientific one.
No, I said "He did not have equipment for that." Some locators, such as this fellow, handle only certain kinds of underground lines, not all kinds. Hence, he did carry equipment for all kinds of lines.
There is modern technology for water location. Yes, it's superior to dowsing, but dowsing does work, too.
I don't believe that there is anything supernatural about it. It is likely to have something to do with a person's body electrical current. For example, I have never been able to wear a pocket watch. I have had many but in just a few days they stop. Also, on certain days I cannot approach any small radio like a boombox or such. At about 5' they will begin to lose their signal. At 2' it's lights out, nothing but static.
One more thing, and it really ticks me off, no wristwatch that I have ever owned will keep the correct date. I cannot begin to count how many 'date' watches that I have owned from Timex to Seiko. None will work, none!
Thinking through what? These dirt poor folks were just trying to find fresh water. She had been taught and could do it.
See my post #69.
Off topic, or maybe not, acupuncture works.
I’ve had it done for lower back pain that drugs didn’t even touch. It is a respected field of medicine in East Asia. Yet to this day, I am unaware of any science-based explanation as to why or how it works.
Yoga works, too. I have seen yogi do some amazing things. Things that I would never be able to do in my lifetime, certainly.
So what you are saying is that God heard their prayers and showed the drillers that the witching was from a bad spirit? Some here say it is from the Scriptures, others say it is from Satan, others say it doesn't work anyway. I live 26' above a great water table so it doesn't concern me.
I have seen dowsing in action and it does appear to work. Can I gurantee that the operators weren't charletans? No, I can't. But I can say that in order for the map dowser in particular to fake his findings he whould have needed to be very familiar with the site he was dowsing, more familiar than a survey crew that had spent weeks on that site.
I'm also not saying that the dowsing "gift" is always from Satan. But such gifts need to be considered with caution.
If Dowsing works, then...yea, that's the choice.
For the sake of argument, I'll grant your point: dowsing works. Now show me the scientific evidence for WHY it works. The balls in your court.
I'm not asking for testimonials that it works. That doesn't explain why it works. And besides, I've already granted you that point--it works.
And please don't insult your or my intelligence by talking about mysterious forces science hasn't figured out how to measure. Scientists have determined how to measure such things as the size of a single atom, or detect elements that exist for only the smallest fraction of a second. If there was some electromagnetic field associated with dowsing, it certainly would have been detected by now.
I could produce pages of links to studies showing there is no scientific evidence for dowsing. But, I'm giving you your chance to prove me wrong. Produce a study detailing the science behind dowsing. Link me to a book on Amazon called "The Scientific Behind Downsing." Produce some scientific evidence for why dowsing work...something...anything!
That's all I'm asking. Explain the scientific why.
And, if you can't produce the scientific why (the physics behind why it works), then explain why it works without physics; without science; without a natural reason.
Because, if it works without any natural, physical, scientific mechanism, then the mechanism must not be scientific, physical, or natural. There is a word for things that work that way: supernatural.
So does fortune telling and communication with the dead...until they attempt to perform under controlled, scientific conditions. Then (for some strange reason) the skill disappears.
And, dowsing is no different.
Below is a link to the Simthsonian Institution that contains of video of dowsers attempting to reproduce their skill under controlled conditions. And, they totally fail. Like fortune tellers and people that "talk to the dead," when push comes to shove, when facing an actual controlled test, their skill disappears.
There was a water line break near where I lived about 3 winters ago.
So I was out watching them work on it, apparently the water line was somehow laid in a gravel base and covered by the road. The road sloped, and the water wa gushing out from under the asphalt.
The guy working on it has a chain around his neck with some kind of jewelry piece setup on it, and he starts walking up the road swinging it.
About six feet up the road, he says “Here it is”, and kicks a mark in the snow.
They start with the jackhammer, he was dead on, took them about another 35 minutes to fix it.
My jaw dropped big time that day!
And to make you scratch your head even more, this was the city water crew who was doing the work!
That must make life pretty difficult for him.
Driving home, every time he crosses over a water line it would yank on his neck. He must have to avoid bridges that cross rivers, as the pull would probably break the chain.
Taking his dog for a walk must be awful as well, as every time he crosses a water line it would pull on his neck.
And heaven forbid he should actually get in a boat wearing the thing. It might actually pull him right down to the bottom of the boat.
Think about it. Have you every wondered why these devices are attracted to water sometimes, but not other times? If a Y-shaped stick really was pulled toward the ground when it hovered over underground water, wouldn't it be impossible to just carry a Y-shaped stick across your backyard without it jumping out of your hand?
And yet, that isn't what happens. People carry sticks and rods all over the place (all the time) and never report then jumping out of their hands, or wheelbarrow, or truck because they're carrying them over an underground water source.
Why does it work sometimes, and not others? Because it doesn't really work in the first place.
Just telling you what I saw.
Whatever happened there, you can decide.
Wait, you didn’t see it....
Not really. When I farmed and grew up on a farm; I could find underground water drainage tile lines this way.
Not sure why it worked but it did. I just would take 2 pieces of #9 wire (thicker wire) about 3 foot long. Bend one end so you had a handle. Walk with them loosely held in front of me. When I would get over an area with a tile line they would move towards each other; cross over.
I assume it's something with the magnetic field being slightly different in those areas.
Not “magical; but something scientific.
I just know it worked pretty well. Would have a can of orange spray paint, and I could mark the tile line pretty well after coming at the area from different angles.
Kind of like using a stud finder.
They have a lot better methods than my 2 pieces of wire is why!
When I did it; I could afford to be off a bit; they can't!
You mistake me for a credulous enthusiast. I am not. I’ve seen some strange things-not limited to dowsing, either-that I generally ascribe to either chicanery or the devil and his angels. I wouldn’t pursue any of it.
Connecting with your subconscious and getting it to reveal things your conscious mind misses can and does work.
If you search (on google or Amazon) dowsing, it is striking how much of the material has a new-age, spiritual aspect to it.
"Dowsing tools, tips, books, resources, classes. Large selection of quality pendulums and divining rods for the discriminating dowser and energy healer." -- divingmind.com
"Dowsers.com is dedicated to helping you to grow spiritually and heal through dowsing, the teachings of Walter Russell, and Celtic Sea Salt." -- dowsers.com
"This is the best site for products and information on Dowsing and Pyramid Power!! " - dowsing.com
The American Society of Dowsers (dowsers.org) is an virtual Pandora's box of new-age mumbo-jumbo. Just a quick sampling of items they sell on their website:
And, all this was in the 1st page of results of a google search of the word "dowsing."
Whatever dowsing actually is, it's obvious that there is a strong enough spiritual dimension to it that it leads people away from the truth (the Bible) and towards spiritual error.
I agree with the idea of many different spirits and [little g--gods] out there altering and influencing the world.
But, I have used metal coat hangers to locate the metal water lines on our property. Nothing magical about that.
Simply saying "it works" doesn't explain why it works. Nor does it disprove that it works "by magic" or via a supernatural force.
Moses used a rod and with our 'God' he unleashed water. That is not blasphemy nor did I infer that it was divining.
The context in which you used the quote (a thread on divining) certainly made it look like you were using it as an example of divining found in the Bible. If not, they why did you quote the line?
Place the line in context and it seems to have nothing to do with divination or dowsing.
"Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. 3 They quarreled with Moses and said, If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord! 4 Why did you bring the Lords community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? 5 Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!
6 Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the Lord appeared to them. 7 The Lord said to Moses, 8 Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.
9 So Moses took the staff from the Lords presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock? 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."
God did not command Moses to use his rod to locate water--there was no divining (searching for water) with a stick. God told Moses exactly where it was.
God also did not tell Moses to use his rod to bring forth the water. God told Moses to speak to the rock, and it would bring forth water. God, in fact, gets angry at Moses for using his rod to bring forth the water (by hitting the rock--notice again there is no dowsing with a stick going on to locate the water source).
And yes, taking scripture--God's word--out of context to imply it says something it doesn't (twisting scripture) is a form of blasphemy.
Anyone with real confidence in his abilities is free to prove his mettle in front of The Amazing Randi. Do it under conditions that prohibit cheating, and he'll give you a million dollars. No one has managed yet.
Randi is a dishonest person who has no intention of paying up, no matter what anyone shows him.
The only way you could know this to be true would be if someone had successfully demonstrated magical powers in front of of Randi under conditions that prohibited cheating, followed by Randi's refusal to pay up.
Do you know of such an occurance? If so, please document it.
Randi has structured the rules of his “challenge” in such a way that it would be functionally impossible to overcome it, and also functionally impossible to sue him if you did, and he reneged. No one in his right mind would sign the legal contract for such a challenge.
You can read about it here...
OOps...wrong link..it’s this one...