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{vanity} seeking advice on piston recoil reducer for AR-15
FOB Salerno ^ | 9/30/2012 | blueflag

Posted on 09/30/2012 1:17:31 PM PDT by Blueflag

Seeking advice on brands and sources to select and buy a piston recoil reducer in my AR-15 stock.

(Excerpt) Read more at freerepublic.com ...


TOPICS: Hobbies; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: boys; for; toys
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A special forces friend of mine just home from FOB Salerno was recommending (based on his personal and unit's experience) I replace my spring system in the stock with a piston recoil reducer. HE said it reduces the amount of the recoil to the point it's like firing a .22 LR. He said he and his buds could REALLY put rounds on target with multiple quick shots.

The challenge is picking a brand and finding a source.

What does FReepworld recommend?

1 posted on 09/30/2012 1:17:36 PM PDT by Blueflag
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To: Blueflag

Www.brownells.com


2 posted on 09/30/2012 1:26:02 PM PDT by shankbear (This Tagline space is for rent.)
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To: Blueflag

Well, I’ll certainly be watchin’ this thread!


3 posted on 09/30/2012 1:26:35 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Blueflag

I can’t imagine anyone being bothered by AR-15 recoil.

It is almost not even noticeable and I have never liked recoil.


4 posted on 09/30/2012 1:28:30 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: MHGinTN

Yeah; same same.


5 posted on 09/30/2012 1:30:23 PM PDT by Backstop73 (Always reading, seldom posting.)
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To: shankbear

not sure this is it, but will view the linked video so make sure.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=22351/Product/AR-RESTOR-trade-


6 posted on 09/30/2012 1:31:46 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Blueflag

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5AyjpiPhsU


7 posted on 09/30/2012 1:31:59 PM PDT by WakeUpAndVote
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To: Blueflag
"Mattie Mattel" needs a recoil reducer?

This country really has gone pansy, hasn't it...

The Mousegun only makes spring noises (when it fires), it doesn't kick.

Reminds me of what I told an army buddy of mine who served in Vietnam same time I did. He told me that the "M-14 was too heavy and kicked too hard for Vietnam - the M-16 was much better". I told him that he should have told me: I'd have sent a big, strong Marine with him to hold his rifle up for him.

8 posted on 09/30/2012 1:33:17 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Blueflag

I think you’re mixing terms somewhat. The recoil reducer in the stock is called a buffer. Piston systems are used as a replacement for the direct impingment method of cycling the rifle.

There are a fair number of buffers of various weights to tune the recoil. Hydraulic buffers offer the most recoil reduction, but are generally used on full auto rifles.

I recommend you go to AR15.com to research the topic. If they can’t answer your question, there is no answer.


9 posted on 09/30/2012 1:35:05 PM PDT by Nachoman (I HOPE we CHANGE presidents.)
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To: shankbear

Good advice. Watch the video. Real deal - exactly what my friend was talking about.

Four models for the AR-15’ stock specific.

take a look http://bcove.me/2rq7c64q

Thanks again.


10 posted on 09/30/2012 1:35:47 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Blueflag
Just get a gas piston AR-15 like this one from Bud's Gun Shop for $659..


11 posted on 09/30/2012 1:40:57 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: Chainmail
Does the testosterone poisoning hurt?

/johnny

12 posted on 09/30/2012 1:42:00 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Blueflag

I would recommend that you not listen to Sea Stories as other than entertainment.

Total recoil force is caused by the outflow of gas and the bullet, compared to the weight of the rifle. You can reduce the effect of the gas with a muzzle brake, but you get the gas pushed back at you. That might cause you to blink, and that may lead to more delay than the recoil. If you add some weight to the rifle (add a 6 lb of weight such as filling your pistol grip with lead, and more lead in your shoulder stock, and add a large scope)) you can change the ratio. For more class, add gold instead of lead.

Peak recoil force can be reduced by spreading recoil out in time. That can be accomplished by a properly tuned rubber pad. If your rifle bolt bangs back into the stop you could get a momentary peak, but that is from the weight of the bolt, not the rifle. You can add a stronger spring to reduce that, but most of the recoil has already happened (the gas tube is out near the muzzle, and the gas has to propagate back to the bolt, so the round is gone before the bolt unlocks. The disadvantage with a stronger spring is you reduce reliability. The operating spring must be in tune with the magazine spring, and further, a light round may not push the bolt all the way back.

A better way to reduce the time between hits on a target is to go with a few friends. That is how we did it in the Civil War.


13 posted on 09/30/2012 1:46:22 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: yarddog

I appreciate your perspective, but ...

My friend was in his most recent firefight ~11(?) days ago.

i.e., he was there, on duty when the bad guys blew a hole in the wall with a truck bomb and the squirters ran in wearing US Army uniforms.

He was in Desert Storm I and II, in Baghdad for the handover, and now Afghanistan, multiple tours.

He STRONGLY recommended getting the recoil reducer, especially if you are using optics, as you can REALLY keep the aim point on target when firing multiple shots, fast.

I’ll go with his recommendation. That’s just me.


14 posted on 09/30/2012 1:53:21 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Nachoman

I’ll admit to mixing the terms, as I realize what you are saying.

this device goes in the stock, has a gas-operated piston instead of the usual spring, and reduces recoil.

The video narrator refers to the device as a buffer. You are correct.

The video shows the device I intend to order/ try.

Going to AR-15 is like talking to pilots in a FBO hangar. ;-)

I’ll stick with my friend’s advice. He’s the real deal, and I know him personally as such.


15 posted on 09/30/2012 1:57:37 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: donmeaker

Please see my post #14.

My friend is a serious sort, not prone to fish stories.

We’ve known him and his family for years.

If he recommends it, I’ll consider it; try it.

He picked up his (personal) AR and showed me how to make the change from spring to the piston in less than a minute.

What can it hurt? Especially If I can do a better job of putting lead on target, fast, well down range.

FWIW, just to stir the pot, he also believes the 870 is the perfect home defense shotgun for his wife at home to have at the ready.


16 posted on 09/30/2012 2:02:54 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Blueflag

If quicker follow up shots are the goal, use a bipod, sandbags, or install a heavy barrel.

The military really frowns in troopies self modifying issued weapons with non-approved parts.


17 posted on 09/30/2012 2:11:36 PM PDT by wrench
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To: Blueflag

I’ve been in the firearms industry for a LONG time. I hate to say it, but there isn’t anything currently available on the US market that will do what he suggests in regards to internal buffering for recoil reduction. There are some products that will lighten the felt recoil but not to the point he is describing.

Our enemies however have dumped a lot of money into this type of technology and they are beginning to utilize it in their small arms systems.

Could something be manufactured to do what your friend is suggesting? Absolutely. Is it currently? Nope, and it’s not going to be. Because of the MG ban, there is very little effort being put into recoil reduction technology here in the US in systems such as the M16 and such.

The AR15 has mild recoil comparatively vs. other firearms but it could benefit from recoil reduction technology for time on target application in full auto over range. It can be done and if we can get rid of the MG ban, a private company will most likely invest the capital and time to do exactly that. For the time being, you’re stuck with products that will deliver mediocre performance compared to what China, Russia, and other semi-unfriendly nations have developed.

Thank Rangel, Hughes and every pinhead elected since who haven’t repealed the Hughes Amendment for that. They’ve put our nation at a disadvantage.


18 posted on 09/30/2012 2:17:00 PM PDT by BCR #226 (02/07 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: wrench

Its approved. And his status/ role gets home and his teams pretty much whatever they want.

Bipod useless when standing and heavy barrel is contrary to his role.


19 posted on 09/30/2012 2:18:46 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: BCR #226

Perhaps he and his team have something we cannot purchase.

I have every reason to believe him. I intend to try it and folow up with him. He is home til late November.

I will ask him if this product is what they are using.


20 posted on 09/30/2012 2:23:21 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Blueflag

You really have a recoil issue with an AR in .223?

Reducing cyclic rates on a Class III device does have merit wrt accuracy (which is what the devices you linked to are designed to do, while simultaneously lengthening the recoil impulse) - but in a semi-automatic what’s the point?

If recoil is really causing an accuracy issue when shooting an AR - I’d suggest in order of expense: a directional muzzle brake on your existing bbl.; a smaller caliber upper i.e. a .22LR upper from a reliable manufacturer, lastly an HBAR 20” upper in .223.

It’s your money - spend it how you wish.


21 posted on 09/30/2012 2:31:59 PM PDT by Sylvester McMonkey McBean
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To: Blueflag
can you ask him what brand they use???
22 posted on 09/30/2012 2:38:24 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Blueflag

Never owned an AR-15 but was asked to come up with a hydraulic buffer system for one when I worked at a company that was part of parent corporation that owned Colt at the time. The stock buffer is filled with metal disks and rubber disks stacked separately that act as a dead blow hammer when the bolt is cycled. On a recoil or return, the weights pancake to slow the rebound action of the bolt. This slows the rate of fire. The idea that I worked was to substitute a hydraulic shock absorber unit for the weighted buffer. This was to reduce the bounce affect of the bolt hitting the end of travel which was the main cause of the shaking the rifle off target. I only test fired one once with the new design versus the stock design in single action mode since they only let us have one civilian model to play with. There was a slight reduction in the cycling bounce but I think it would had more pronounce affect if the rifle had the three round burst capability. Made up a half dozen units which were sent off for Colt to test. We heard no formal results, just a thanks-but-no-thanks comment back stating that it didn’t offer that much improvement with the three round burst. A couple of years later (after the parent corporation had sold Colt off), I heard they resurrected the idea and incorporated it in the rifles. The rifle buffer was long enough to incorporate a hydraulic mechanism but the carbine buffer is too short for all the stuff that needed to go in. Unless you are going full auto or three round burst, such a device would not offer any advantage in a civilian AR model IMHO.


23 posted on 09/30/2012 2:56:20 PM PDT by Traction
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To: Blueflag

BS on modifying issued weapons. If you want a medium machine gun, have one issued. The M4 is a pop gun, always has been, always will be.


24 posted on 09/30/2012 2:57:53 PM PDT by wrench
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To: yarddog
"I can’t imagine anyone being bothered by AR-15 recoil."

Yes, but Burst Fire or Full Auto with a M4 is a little different matter.

25 posted on 09/30/2012 2:58:16 PM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: JRandomFreeper
"Does the testosterone poisoning hurt?"

No, not much - but it has resulted in a lot of kids, though.

26 posted on 09/30/2012 3:02:12 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Blueflag

I belive what your friend was referring to is a hydrauluc buffer assembly. It will improve you rifle in too many areas to list here. Checkout the Enidine AR-Restor Hydraulic Carbine Buffer at http://www.buffertech.com/AR-Restor-Hydraulic-Recoil-Carbine-Buffer-P178.aspx

GI’s and Jarheads (Semper Fi!- no insult intended) are changing to these as fast as they can get their hands on them. The key word to these units is weapons reliability. Not to mention, actual reduced recoil, smoother operation, increased accuracy in fully auto, etc., etc.

These are not a gimmick and really do...do what they say. It will cost you about $89.00 which is cheapo for the improvement you get. Most of the improvement is firing; using one of the buffers in a scoped, fully auto version. Best though is Hundreds of percent improvement in reliability. That’s what the pro’s want.

44.S&WSpecial


27 posted on 09/30/2012 3:10:21 PM PDT by .44 Special (Taimid Buarch)
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To: Sylvester McMonkey McBean

All-

My friend is a professional war fighter.

I am not.

HE says the recoil reduction is worth it.

He and his teams use pretty much every rifle pistol and automatic in the armory. Every week. I’ll respect your opinions but go with his.

Perhaps you are more manly than he and i are. So be it.


28 posted on 09/30/2012 3:10:47 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Blueflag

Reduce recoil on an AR??? Maybe bulk up?


29 posted on 09/30/2012 3:20:03 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: Blueflag

FWIW, I have never considered the recoil from a 5.56 AR 15 of M-16 to particularly harsh.

The hydraulic buffers do not reduce the total felt recoil, but they do spread the recoil impulse over a longer period of time which does make the recoil more managanfable.

If you really want to reduce recoil there are a number of good muzzle brake/ compensates on the market that do a good job of reducing recoil, reducing muzzle rise and also acting as a flash hider.

Probably the best of these in current use is the Primary Weapons Systems PWS FSC 556.

The FSC 556 combined with the hydraulic buffer should make the recoil very minimal and easy to manage and the buffer should reduce the annoying “sprang” noise a spring buffer makes.

Good luck with your AR


30 posted on 09/30/2012 3:22:28 PM PDT by rdcbn
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To: .44 Special

“GI’s and Jarheads (Semper Fi!- no insult intended) are changing to these as fast as they can get their hands on them. The key word to these units is weapons reliability. “

This is the first I’ve heard of it. Got any links to official sources?


31 posted on 09/30/2012 3:23:02 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: MHGinTN

Me too. Freepers have the best gun advice.


32 posted on 09/30/2012 3:26:14 PM PDT by Mikey_1962 (Obama: The Affirmative Action President.)
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To: .44 Special

I’d like to see the tech data that validates this claim from your link:

“AR-Restors greatly reduce felt recoil and improve accuracy.”


33 posted on 09/30/2012 3:28:28 PM PDT by Backstop73 (Always reading, seldom posting.)
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To: Backstop73

Dang it...just the tech data that validates the accuracy improvement.


34 posted on 09/30/2012 3:30:24 PM PDT by Backstop73 (Always reading, seldom posting.)
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To: Backstop73
I don't think that a hydraulic buffer improves the intrinsic accuracy of the Stoner system used in the M-16, M-4 and AR-15 much but they can dampen and spread out the recoil impulse and also reduce the cyclic rate in full auto, both of which can improve follow up shot speed and accuracy performance with multiple shots and can help with controllability and the ability to track a target in FA.

Hydraulic buffers for the short barrel M-4 carbine are also useful to deal with some of the more destructive aspects of the gas system operation for that particular design.

35 posted on 09/30/2012 3:50:38 PM PDT by rdcbn
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To: Mikey_1962

I regularly shoot an 11.5 inch with HBAR barrel, 5.56, using a holo sight. The gun has a CMMG piston kit and I had to take half a coil out of the buffer spring to compensate for the reduced dwell time, but recoil is almost non-existant without a buffer tube recoil piston, so I doubt I would add one.


36 posted on 09/30/2012 3:52:19 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: CodeToad

FWIW a friends son is a sgt in the 82nd. He buys the optics he wants. His parents bought him the best body armour. Etc etc. The Army issues the basics and friends an family fill it out.


37 posted on 09/30/2012 3:54:29 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Rather get the hi-point 9mm carbine. Much larger round with less kick, plentiful ammo, etc. And it’s half the price. Keep in mind German WW2 rifles were 7 and 8mm.


38 posted on 09/30/2012 4:10:22 PM PDT by TheRhinelander
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To: Blueflag

I doubt it. More likely it’s a perception thing. I’m a recoil junkie so recoil doesn’t bother me much at all and I can lay in decently accurate full auto fire with the M4 series. Cut the recoil by 15% and it would allow me to really put a hurting on the enemy. Cut it by 90% and most people could do exactly the same thing without trying.

I’m leaning towards him having a lot of rounds under his belt making the touch of a little less felt recoil making a huge difference.


39 posted on 09/30/2012 4:16:02 PM PDT by BCR #226 (02/07 SOT www.extremefirepower.com...The BS stops when the hammer drops.)
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To: Blueflag

Looking at Brownells, the devices are like a hundred bucks. A bit pricey to try one just because you see it at the gun store and are curious. However, the sense of a risky-purchase drops if you have a friend who recommends it based on their personal experience.

So get one and try it and post a follow-up.


40 posted on 09/30/2012 4:43:56 PM PDT by jaydee770
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To: JRandomFreeper

Only those closest to the one carrying the excess load of testosterone. Just ask Mrs L....


41 posted on 09/30/2012 4:46:56 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: jaydee770

First I’ll confirm the make and model he uses. Don’t know if it’s the one from Brownells or the other one posted by a FReeper.

AR’s (and all guns) are like boats — you drop money on them just ‘cuz you can. ~$100 for a cool gizmo recommended by a true warfighter you personally know is worth the risk.

I’ll see what I can do and post back here and ping you.


42 posted on 09/30/2012 5:08:55 PM PDT by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur: non vehere est inermus)
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To: Blueflag
What does FReepworld recommend?

Go back to an M16A1 and stay away from all the "cool guy" optics and other junk on the gun. If you can't engage at 460 meters with iron sites on an M16A1, you should be issued an M249 and spray the hell out of the target.
The heavy barrel on the M16A2 was an improvement, but the 3 round burst mechanism and change in rifling was an abortion.

If this guy is doing door-kicker exercises, he may require a weapon that is easier to maneuver in narrow confines, but most troops don't need the M4.

BTW- The recoil is negligent. He needs to reinforce his 8-steady hold factors instead of looking for the holy grail.

43 posted on 09/30/2012 5:59:44 PM PDT by Sarajevo (Don't think for a minute that this excuse for a President has America's best interest in mind.)
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To: Buffalo Head
"Yes, but Burst Fire or Full Auto with a M4 is a little different matter. "

You're joking, right? Those things are pipsqueaks and always have been. I carried a BAR when I was a PFC and that puppy was completely controllable - so much so, I could easily keep all of my rounds into man-sized silhouettes as far as I could see them. You could actually see the strike of the rounds through the peep sight and control your fires.

Never had to worry about too many hits with a BAR either: when you connect with a Caliber .30 M2 Ball (.30-'06), they stay down.

If you really have trouble controlling a 5.56 in full auto, might I recommend the .22LR?

44 posted on 09/30/2012 6:32:43 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Blueflag

Bookmark.


45 posted on 09/30/2012 6:39:38 PM PDT by grobdriver (Proud Member, Party of No! Nobama, No Way, No How!)
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To: TheRhinelander
"Rather get the hi-point 9mm carbine. Much larger round with less kick, plentiful ammo, etc. And it’s half the price. Keep in mind German WW2 rifles were 7 and 8mm.

I had to read that post of your twice before I could believe my eyes. You do realize, don't you, that the 9mm carbine fires pistol ammunition - the same as the old Luger and P-38 and the M9 Beretta - while the other German rounds you mentioned were full-power 7.92mm rifle rounds? Even the anemic little 5.56 is far more powerful and deadly that a carbine firing pistol ammo. Probably not too bad at 25 meters but ridiculous at 100m. Even the much-maligned M1 Carbine was considerably more effective than the 9mm carbines/submachineguns.

You need a little more range time, buddy!

46 posted on 09/30/2012 6:47:04 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: TheRhinelander
"Rather get the hi-point 9mm carbine. Much larger round with less kick, plentiful ammo, etc. And it’s half the price. Keep in mind German WW2 rifles were 7 and 8mm.

I had to read that post of your twice before I could believe my eyes. You do realize, don't you, that the 9mm carbine fires pistol ammunition - the same as the old Luger and P-38 and the M9 Beretta - while the other German rounds you mentioned were full-power 7.92mm rifle rounds? Even the anemic little 5.56 is far more powerful and deadly that a carbine firing pistol ammo. Probably not too bad at 25 meters but ridiculous at 100m. Even the much-maligned M1 Carbine was considerably more effective than the 9mm carbines/submachineguns.

You need a little more range time, buddy!

47 posted on 09/30/2012 6:47:53 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail
So you "carried a BAR and fired at man-sized silhouettes as far as I could see them". And Rambo carried an M-60 and fired it from the hip. Your B.S. is quite transparent.

I carried an M16-A1 against Viet Cong in combat. We had no trouble killing VC with that "pipsqueak".

And just where did you fire that BAR against the enemy?

48 posted on 09/30/2012 7:01:52 PM PDT by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: Buffalo Head
The man-sized silhouettes were at Camp Pendleton while I went through infantry training and staging battalion on my way to Vietnam. We still used M1s and BARS in training in late '65 because the Marine Corps had mountains of .30-'06 still available. I used an M-14 throughout my tour and a half in Vietnam. Less controllable than the BAR, which I would have preferred, but effective.

The M-16A1 sucked. Stupid thing jammed too often and I saw way too many VC hit and keep going - and way too many dead Marines with broken-down M-16s by them. All of the hype surrounding that thing's supposed terminal ballistics was just that, hype. My M-14 always functioned, no matter what and when I hit somebody, they stayed right where they were. When I got hit, there was a fight over who got to take my rifle.

Before accusing a fellow veteran of BS, consider asking for refining data first. we have enough know-it-all critics without doing it to each other.

49 posted on 09/30/2012 7:27:57 PM PDT by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail

My Father always liked the BAR. His sergeant shot down an FW-190 with one.

Their outfit, combat engineers were working in a quarry and had several people doing lookout while they worked. I am sure it was mostly luck but he did it.

When the outfit was disbanded in November 1945 each soldier was given a short history of the outfits adventures. They were on a large piece of paper, maybe 5X5 feet and written on both sides. They consisted of maps with comments and hand drawn pictures of their adventures.

Sure enough, there is one of the guy shooting down the plane. although I think they drew a Messerschmidt. instead of the correct plane.


50 posted on 09/30/2012 7:55:58 PM PDT by yarddog
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