Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Ayoob on Firearms +++ Massad Ayoob
backwoodshome ^ | Massad Ayoob

Posted on 10/05/2012 8:22:55 PM PDT by djone

"The smoothbore fowling piece is the oldest style of backwoods home firearm in America; hell, they came over on the Mayflower. They've come a long way. Today's hunting shotguns, particularly when you look at turkey guns, tend to be rapid-firing pump guns and, hugely, semiautomatics. The ones you'll find at a practical shooting match (check on Hulu and watch an episode of "Three Gun Nation" to see what I'm talking about) have been tricked out with extended magazines and high-tech sights. "

(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...


TOPICS: Education; History; Reference
KEYWORDS: banglist; firearms
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-64 next last
A collection of one of my favorite writters on firearms.. or link here---

http://www.backwoodshome.com/author_index.html#mayoob

1 posted on 10/05/2012 8:22:57 PM PDT by djone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: djone

His piece that argued against using handloads for defense was the first and last of his that I read.


2 posted on 10/05/2012 8:28:16 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: djone

Mayoob has been around quite awhile and was always a pretty thorough, common-sense law enforcement and civilian instructor/author.

Not sure about the advantage for semis in hunting turkeys. (Didn’t read that specific article)...

Engaging multiple targets like,say, quail or zombies, though- different story.


3 posted on 10/05/2012 8:33:11 PM PDT by One Name (Ultimately, the TRUTH is a razor's edge and no man can sit astride it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: familyop

I used to think so too, until I took his class, and he has good reasons for it!

The use of force, and the instruments of that force, must be defensible in the event you end up in court (which is more likely than not, given the propensity for “wrongful death” suits these days). The steps you take in advance of such an occurrence will make the difference between freedom and imprisonment/impoverishment. It will be up to you to educate the jury and bring them up to understanding whether a reasonable man, knowing what you know, would do what you did in that particular set of circumstances.

Factory ammo is known quantity, and goes through a defined and documented quality control process - handloads don’t. Manufacturers do that for liability purposes, besides which customers seem to prefer a consistently-performing product. Does the average handloader run a statistically significant portion of each lot to determine velocity, penetration, expansion, etc.? I sure as heck don’t, and I reload 500-1000 rounds a month. Maybe the high-speed rifle competition guys do.

The factory ammo can be obtained by investigators and fired to determine/verify distances, expansion, and other characteristics to which the defendant (you) may attest during your questioning.

Some Prosecutors all but lick their chops when handloads are involved - “he loaded SUPER-HOT ammo - he wasn’t satisfied with regular velocity store-bought stuff! - he’s a crazed killer just looking to blow someone away!” That will do wonders to your credibility with the jury and the press, regardless of your protestations to the contrary.

Granted, factory self-defense ammo is not cheap. Handloaders can build practice loads that approximate velocities and recoil for their favorite factory loads if high-volume practice is needed/desired. Nonetheless, occasionally running some of your carry ammo into the training mix will (a) clear out the old inventory (and a(nother) reason to go to the gun store), and (b) provide an opportunity to train with and to document training with the “real stuff”. Anticipate the questions: “What is your experience with this particular firearm & ammunition combination?” “When did you last fire this type of ammunition, and under what circumstances?” - document when, where, and how you trained and what you shot in a shooter’s log book.

As Mas is a renowned expert witness in self-defense legal proceedings, you might consider re-visiting your position...myself, I would avoid giving the opposition any more ammo (pun intended) for their purposes...


4 posted on 10/05/2012 9:09:43 PM PDT by castlebrew (Gun Control means hitting where you're aiming!))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

Show a case where use of handloads made the difference between guilt and innocence.


5 posted on 10/05/2012 10:04:28 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew
"Some Prosecutors all but lick their chops...'he...SUPER-HOT...he wasn’t satisfied...blow someone...!'"

That wouldn't surprise us. [Little humor there.]

"That will do wonders to your credibility with the jury and the press, regardless of your protestations to the contrary."

[More sincerely...] My credibility depends on what I do and say--not what others say.

Hysteria should be avoided in judicial work and in self-defense. Logic, study and experience in physical interactions are better. We shouldn't be making way for constitutional violations.

I carried evil Talons on duty long ago. The public arguments against those were no more or less irrelevant than the arguments against handloads. My handloads are more accurate and proven than commercial loads. More expensive, too (also irrelevant). ;-)


6 posted on 10/05/2012 10:26:19 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: familyop; castlebrew

>>Show a case where use of handloads made the difference between guilt and innocence.

Hopefully sometime in the future we won’t be posting links to an incident you were in as an example.

There’s no doubt in my mind at all that if Zimmerman was using handloads, especially if ballistics tests on his other rounds showed they were ‘hotter’ than anything else on the market (unlikely to be a problem), that it would be part of the MSM and prosecutor’s meme.


7 posted on 10/05/2012 10:48:46 PM PDT by expat1000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: expat1000

Arguments befitting women’s studies instructors.


8 posted on 10/05/2012 11:14:10 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: familyop
Arguments befitting women’s studies instructors.

Sounds like you've taken a few of those courses, so I'll defer to you as to what they consist of.

9 posted on 10/06/2012 12:27:10 AM PDT by expat1000
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: djone

ping for later.


10 posted on 10/06/2012 6:37:09 AM PDT by Vinnie (A)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

The argument that handloads give any prosecutor a leg up in your prosecution is moot. No case has ever been decided on the basis of whether handloads or factory loads were used. Ayoob’s citations have been researched by handloading lawyers and were found to be without merit in regards to his argument.

Juries understand that whatever is in the gun at the moment is the bullet that is going to be used. Reloading at the point of the fight with factory loads would be foolish and would get you killed.

Pistols are very limited by engineering in there ability to carry a “super hot load”. .45 caliber (.452) is limited to 14,000 Psi and if you exceed that number the gun may blow up in your face either on the next shot or down the road after the gun has been weakened by the over pressures.

Speaking for the handloading community I can tell you that we are all paranoid in the extreme concerning loading super hot loads by accident and we go to great lengths to try to eliminate it because it could cost us our life or the life of a family member or the life of a stranger in the slot next to us at the shooting range. At the least it might thoroughly wreck a gun rendering it a paperweight and a reminder that screams “Don’t do this again!”.

Ayoob is highly respected in many quarters but not in the reloading community. He is regarded as a fool who is not sufficiently knowledgeable to be instructing others in this particular aspect of shooting.

My own bone to pick with him is that he has merged and confused the difference between tactical shooting and defensive shooting. To review the difference:

Tactical shooting is many times a drawn out affair with multiple magazines being loaded into the pistol. Distances are as far as 40 or so feet. Occasionally further. Large quantities of ammo are required and back up is always welcome. The gunfight may be several minutes in duration.

Objective of Tactical Shooting: To end the fight.

Defensive shooting occurs at distances of 10 to 15 feet and only 3 to 5 shots are fired. There is no backup available. The encounter lasts less than ten seconds and most likely will be about 5 seconds in duration.

The objective of Defensive Shooting: To keep the perp from making the next shot.

These are very different objectives and for my money the most effective method of meeting the objective for defensive shooting is to use a .45, either ACP or Long Colt. A .45 Long Colt loaded with a 250 grain bullet traveling 700 feet per second is quite effective on a perp at 15 feet and was also used to put down an out of control horse at close range. This is in no way a hot load but is the classic load for the .45 Long Colt, the black powder load equivalent for the day to day shooting needs of the Cowboy.

My own .45 LC reloads are quite mild but they would be effective on a perp at close range. Pretty much lights out on the first shot. Which is as it should be. He would not make another shot. Objective met.


11 posted on 10/06/2012 11:48:48 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy; expat1000; castlebrew; djone; Travis McGee

Well said, buffaloguy. This one’s for you (and for Matt, if he ever wants to use any of the content or ideas from it in his own work). Sorry about the hasty writing. Other things to do here today.

The Story of Bob and His Buffalo Bore Coup

Metro recalled the thoughts of his past few days: the end of his career and the government-haters who ended it. He planned the whole operation from start to finish and even planned his defense in detail. Thank goodness, taxpaying public servants passed the Goochie Act to put the uneducated right-wingers in their place. The fools never suspected that Metro’s Progressive Conservatives were upholding decent regulatory government principles for doing business.

But the right-wingers succeeded in their crime of becoming anti-government communities, independent and with their own little economies. They refused to buy from approved retail authorities who generate revenues that upstanding persons like Metro are entitled to.

Metro arrived at Bob’s rube ranch. The place gave him the creeps. Men like Bob had always intimidated him. He had taken much pleasure in gatekeeping at the agency to keep tall rednecks like Bob from getting in.

Black rifle? Check. Commando uniform? Check. Level VI body armor with armor plate? Check. Twenty 30-round magazines in the proper (and very stylish) handbag? Check. Armored mask? Check. Metro couldn’t lose.

There’s Bob, down by his chicken coop, acting like the anti-government scumbag that he is. Look at him—proud to be an unintelligent, impoverished hick. Metro found a three-foot-high boulder and assumed a proper tactical standing position behind it.

Metro opened fire. He couldn’t miss, sending so many bullets through the air for only 200 meters. Or...how far was that? Dang. Forgot the laser rangefinder. Oh, well, doesn’t matter, because he knew that his black rifle was the brand that always made sub-MOA groups at 500 meters. learned it from the Internet. Had to hit something.

Bob took cover behind a small boulder and assumed a prone position, resting his Ruger Blackhawk on the boulder. He cocked the hammer, aimed for many seconds, a thinly scribed line on the lower part of the front sight leveling in line with the rear sight, squeezed and let one go. The revolver emitted the usual explosion and kicked like a mule. Didn’t expect to see that dandy boy up there. The revolver was for the monstrous bear that had been visiting to stalk and pester the livestock.

Metro dropped backwards like an Army silhouette. Bob saw dandy boy’s feet, aimed patiently between them and let another go. Boom!

The deputy looked at the exit wound on the top of the weird stranger’s skull and said, “Bob, that’s one sorry pelt.” Bob said, “Yup.”

The deputy looked around for an entry wound. Seeing the pool of blood between below Metro’s torso and no obvious entry wound, he decided to let the lab technician find it.

“You know that with that new Goochie law and all, you’ll have to drop by to see us.”

“Yup.”

The lawyer for the partner of Mr. Metro S. Politan told the judge, “The Goochie Act....”

“I’m aware of it. Have it your way. The Court will present the lists.”


Mr. Politan:

1 Striker/Arachnid Ninja rifle
...
Horny Turbo Extreme LE Cartridges
...
...Italian suit


Bob:

One Ruger Blackhawk revolver, customized by John...
...
Stetson Hat
...
...Boots
...leather
...Buffalo Bore Cartridges


The judge decreed, “Mr. Metro, total $7,386. Bob, total $11,264, brand names also approved.

“Bob, not guilty...!”


12 posted on 10/06/2012 4:32:54 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: familyop

Nicely turned story that I can relate to since most of my shooting is done with peepsights. I own nothing that is “Tactical Black”. I do own much that is brass,deer and elk hide,

I really enjoyed the story. Thank you.


13 posted on 10/06/2012 8:27:12 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy; familyop

I’ll freely admit that I have no instant cases where the jury based guilt or penalty on handloads where factory loads would have led to an Innocent verdict.

I’ll even stipulate to no cases ever having been decided on that turn of facts.

That being said:
1.WHY would one willingly provide a weak point in one’s defense like this, all over an occasional $20-$25 box of factory ammo? Small change, in the big picture.

2. DON”T count on the jury “understanding” anything, even after detailed explanation. People who can think for themselves are typically the first ones released from the jury selection. Lawyers want people they can lead to a conclusion. Thinkers cause problems for them.

3. I’m not following “...Reloading at the point of the fight with factory loads would be foolish and would get you killed.” From your point “...whatever is in the gun at the moment is the bullet that is going to be used” - “bullets is bullets”. Are the modern factory self-defense loads that sufficiently low-performing that one has to resort to the faster (= “hotter , more powerful”) handloads? My carry rounds (Hornaday Critical Defense) seem to perform adequately...

4. IIRC, Clint Smith notes that the point of using a gun is to get the bad guy to stop what he’s doing. Ending the fight = keeping the perp from making the next (or any) shot = getting them to stop what they’re doing.

We’re on the same page - just different ways of getting to the objective.


14 posted on 10/06/2012 10:22:13 PM PDT by castlebrew (Gun Control means hitting where you're aiming!))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

1. First of all, bullet damage from shootings is extremely well documented through hospitals, coroners and the military. Any super hot load would be called to the attention of the DA by the Coroner.
2. Any claims that a reloader used a superhot load would be immediately confirmed by tests using ballistic gelatin and plastic bones. The testing is fairly cheap and is quite accurate. DAs know this and will not use the argument of a hot load unless the Coroner feels that there is enough odd fragmenation and high penetration to warrant it. It is not an argument that is inserted by the DA willy-nilly.
3. Semi auto pistols have a very limited range of bullets: They must have enough recoil to cycle the next shot but they must not have enough recoil to make the pistol jam or to break parts. Very limited.

Ayoob’s contention that it is any factor whatsover in a court case is simply incorrect. It is a false claim as no cases have been judged on this basis. Zero cases.

It is simply not an issue.

Your second contention that tactical and defense shooting and equipment are equivalent is simply wrong.

Defensive shooting has seperate objectives from tactical shooting.


15 posted on 10/07/2012 12:14:08 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew
"That being said:
1.WHY would one willingly provide a weak point in one’s defense like this, all over an occasional $20-$25 box of factory ammo? Small change, in the big picture.
"

I'll be sincere with this reply. No silly business. I've done security, a little police work, trained as a soldier and engaged in sporting activities in the past. Also did some custom machining long ago and have much mechanical and other experience. I've fired more than I enjoyed on ranges and am more of a ballistics nerd than anything.

Factory ammo is good for those who can afford enough of it, although handloading can add a good learning experience. I'm going to go a little further than expected in the following with some related issues.

Proper training generally, initially requires thousands of rounds for say, four people (e.g., family) over the course of a couple of years and a couple of thousand per year afterward for maintenance. And as for the round count,...

Not all victims of attacks are within minutes of help from police (re. round count, types of training). Some people are even hours away from police help. Such a rural area leaves police with doing occasional investigations after homicides and unable to arrest attackers fast enough to protect residents. That's my argument for good, competent residents training in ways similar to police for self-defense as well as being similarly armed.

I can handload for less than half the cost of essentially the same manufactured ammunition with more precision, consistency and no one in organizational "politics" trying to disturb my peace (re. consideration of a of hypothetical of a handloader trying to work for an agency). And I don't receive federal funding.

"2. DON”T count on the jury “understanding” anything, even after detailed explanation. People who can think for themselves are typically the first ones released from the jury selection. Lawyers want people they can lead to a conclusion. Thinkers cause problems for them."

How would a court feel about a resident using a shotgun to stop a deadly attack? Forensic records of such defense cases are generally uglier, wound-wise, than those of defense cases involving pistols. The weapon used in defense is irrelevant. Nearly anything can be used as a self-defense weapon. Police have used hammers, in some cases, vehicles in others. Bullets sometimes don't end fights started by criminals (with adrenaline and escalation in mind and avoiding the more generalizing myths about drugs).

Problems in the judicial system and society at large must be solved in ways other than incremental disarming of residents. Aiding and abetting a trend caused by Roman-istic immorality (re. displacement of and revisions against the older American paradigm in law and culture) will only make the general situation worse.

As for police who would like to effectively outlaw certain kinds of weapons and supplies for self-defense, that's an error. For one, it won't work. Moral and law-abiding residents, who try to obey laws (including laws against owning certain kinds of weapons, ammunition, etc.), are no threat to police. The us-against-them approach was warned against by several police chiefs of past generations, and our fathers were right.

For another, police should train more, just as anyone should. Training is where the greatest advantage in self-defense comes from. They should also realize the importance of morality. Morality also lends to self-defense abilities. Without it, one is tactically disarmed, when things get really rough. Many police, BTW, do know these things. Most of them are a clean cut above the rest, per person.

But many in leadership are also being gradually drawn under the control of a bipartisan, socialist class of constituents who desire to monitor, control and prevent good and honorable business competition from their neighbors too much (legalized, institutionalized social pathologies, wrongful regulations).

Tools and civil remedies for self-defense should not be controlled according to class, occupation, etc. And most often, ingenuity is an attribute of a good neighbor--not of a criminal who refuses to do technical work with self-motivation or to consider consequences. Don't disrespect or nurse irrational fears of the Bubba in the neighborhood (redneck like me as an example).

Trying to disarm him with brand names, costs or fan-boy-ism will be ineffective and detrimental in the long run. Allies among neighbors will likely be more needed before long. Besides, want more revenues? Then we need more men and machines at work again for those sustainable revenues.

We're probably looking at a situation of "austerity" just ahead, where much more of the middle class will lose incomes: government employees, pensioners, all. Many already have, but the future looks more than a little poor for most of us. Thus, using marketing speech fallaciously to limit freedoms is a bad way to go. It won't disarm the bad guys, but it will turn a population against those who perpetrate such a tactic.

Most training is done incorrectly. Most defense situations are close, dark and fast, requiring training for the same. Most residents don't consider physical/situational matters well enough in advance. A few projects involving dim lighting, fences, camera systems, protective veneers, etc., might even prevent an attack from happening. Apologies to those who suffer when seeing mentions of "light pollution" in "starlight." [Okay, a tiny bit of humor there for those who rely on expensive optics.]

Anyway, there's something to work on instead of trying to disarm "the Joneses" in incremental steps by using marketing/economic tactics. Let the Joneses use AK-pattern rifles in defense, if they wish, and if they're in a sufficiently rural area or use frangible rounds. Ban handloading more, and others will see to it that we're more limited on availability of certain manufactured, effective self-defense cartridges by whispering in the ears of vendors or even outlawing sales to "civilians". [Contrary to television shows and bad journalism, all who are not in our military forces are civilians.]

[I don't have any AK-type rifle, BTW, although AK-like rifles can be very effective with no nearby neighbors, proper home security preparations, fire-and-maneuver and uses of cover. Remember that I'm a ballistics nerd. Saw more than enough violence in the past and probably won't see any more due to my past learning and experiences, situation, bearing, etc.]


16 posted on 10/07/2012 12:33:40 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew; buffaloguy

IMO, the whole argument about excessive wound cavitation is irrelevant. I carried the evil Talons on duty in the past, and there was much public argument against those.

Manufactured loads are made to do as much damage to the human body as technically possible while keeping recoil low enough to make as many such wounds as possible.


17 posted on 10/07/2012 1:06:04 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew; buffaloguy

Another example: good, handloaded bear loads will blow right through a body and into the background without making more than a small hole—even through bone. So will similar manufactured loads. But accurately enough placed, they can be very effective against an attacking bear (re. attack profile: head-on). As for humans, it would likely make a much less interesting wound cavity than turbo/extreme defense loads (not to mention horrid recoil and noise for the defender).

Hope the following will be helpful.

Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories:
The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

[Now, to go out and do something healthier, like fetching manure for next year’s garden.]


18 posted on 10/07/2012 1:17:01 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

“Some Prosecutors all but lick their chops when handloads are involved “

There hasn’t been a single case of that happening, therefore, that statement is a bold faced lie often repeated by those wanting to sound authoritative on the subject of firearms.


19 posted on 10/07/2012 1:18:20 PM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: familyop

Oh how I wish that I had a horse to generaste that manure. But I am running an open houise today trying to get the house sold.


20 posted on 10/07/2012 1:29:53 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: familyop

Here’s an example that doesn’t do much for me:

“Thus, it has become the mark of the firearms professional that any single-action revolver is to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer. Engineers may consider it redundant safety practice. Anyone with common sense calls it “the belt and suspenders approach.” Firearms professionals call it “the rule.”...End of story, end of safety lecture.”

Oddly enough, I don’t know anyone carrying a Ruger who loads 5 rounds only. Of course, most of us don’t have the spare money to buy Colts. Every revolver I own can be safely carried with 6-7 rounds. No thinking person calls it “The Rule”...

He also argues one should aim for the crotch:

“But NOTHING reduces a man’s fear of being shot in the genitals. This point of aim seems to definitely get their attention, in my experience.”

I think I’ll go for center mass. In a defensive situation, I can’t imagine the burglar noticing if I’m aiming at his crotch. Many defensive situations are barely outside contact distance, and are over in seconds.


21 posted on 10/07/2012 1:36:26 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

Agreed on all that you wrote. Well said!

With single action, rocking (pulling from the holster) and firing in the general direction of the bladder/hips can be extremely dangerous for anyone who has not practiced thousands of times to pull *without* putting the thumb in front of the hammer, *before* the weapon is out and moving forward. In other words, we keep the thumb beside/behind the hammer, until the revolver is out and moving forward.

Pulling all the way up without putting any thumb or finger in front of the hammer and using both hands to cock and fire at center mass is safer for the user all the way around. Some of the cowboy action competitors (those most practiced) do it very well and quickly enough for any defense situation.

All of that said, we know that a semi-auto pistol is generally better for defense (far less training, more safety, IMO, and expense to get there). But some of us love to fiddle with the old technology a lot. ;-)


22 posted on 10/07/2012 1:54:52 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

Bookmarking


23 posted on 10/07/2012 1:58:52 PM PDT by RandallFlagg ("Liberalism is about as progressive as CANCER" -Alfonzo Rachel)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: familyop; castlebrew

Familyop,
Thanks for the link. Some light reading for the week is appreciated.

Castle,
The current price for ammo is unacceptable. I load .45-70 rounds for .04 cents a round for roundball plinkig rounds. My full bore rounds (405 grains) are reloaded for about 11 cents per round.

Roundball works well in a .45 LC pistol and are quite cheap.

In addition, wax bullets can be used in most revolvers nearly all of your pistol training can be done with these no recoil, .02 per round, make them in your microwave, primer powered rounds. They are specific to revolvers or fixed breech guns such as derringers.

There are many shooters who cannot afford factory ammo, particularly lots of the older retired shooters.

The arguments concerning cavitation have disappeared as gun ownersip has spread to many new shooters and women. It looked dicey for a while but was another failed attempt to ban ammo by the anti-gun zealots.

In any case, Castlebrew, I would take Ayoob with a grain of salt. His insistance on semi-autos for instance is a bit over the top and it remains truism that the best gun for a n00b is a revolver. I am switching over to all revolvers this year as they are simply more fun.

Please bear with me as I am posting through a Blackberry.


24 posted on 10/07/2012 3:14:54 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: familyop

A semi-automatic is much more practical, but I love the revolvers. And I figure I’ll use for defense what I shoot all the time. Heck, I had a Ruger 45 acp that I gave to my brother-in-law because after 20 years of owning it, I still hadn’t emptied the original box of ammo!

Besides...a single action reminds me not to stand in one spot and just keep pulling the trigger. Shoot, move, shoot, move.

But when I was in Afghanistan, I didn’t mind carrying an M9...and M4!


25 posted on 10/07/2012 3:45:56 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

It makes good sense to use what we’re most familiar with. I hadn’t thought about single action in regards to fire-and-maneuver. That makes sense, too, for any situation allowing for using cover. Thanks!


26 posted on 10/07/2012 4:12:35 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

You’re welcome, and I really hope that your house sells for a good price.


27 posted on 10/07/2012 4:14:05 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

Carried an M-16 (and M-203 and M-60) off and on for the National Guard for seven years. 12B MOS. More recently, I think they’re 21Bs.

Living in the middle of nowhere, here, and looking at rifle possibilities, thought I’d try a semi-auto AR with a 16” barrel and carbine-type handguard. It’s weird. Seems like it’s made more for munchkins than men. ;-)


28 posted on 10/07/2012 4:30:56 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

There is something about that statement concerning aiming at the crotch that strikes me as being weird and very unprofessional.

His comments about keeping an unloaded cylinder underneath a single action hammer is a bit strange. I don’t know anyone who does this.

You have obviousLy read a lot more Ayoob than I have and I am down with that. I stopped reading Ayoob when I hit the factory ammo issue.


29 posted on 10/07/2012 7:42:35 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

I don’t reload, although I ought to start. If I do, then handloads giving a 240 grain bullet at 950 fps ought to make a very good defensive load for my Model 29. 44 specials tend to be more anemic than a 45 ACP, and 44 mag loads tend to be...well, overkill.

And no, I will NOT worry about what the DA thinks of handloads. If my guilt or innocence comes down to that, then I shouldn’t have fired in the first place. I don’t care if it is a 22, if you aren’t willing to accept killing the other person, don’t shoot him!

Heck, with a 240/250 grain bullet at 950 fps, I ought to have sample rounds for the police left in the gun. It shouldn’t take too many rounds like that to convince a person he attacked the wrong household that night!


30 posted on 10/07/2012 8:17:11 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy; CodeToad; familyop

Well, it’s been an interesting discussion.

The whole point of carrying factory loads (I should have specified primarily as typical self-defense against 2-legged varmints) is the repeatability aspect. My point was that the manufacturers have a much better-defined quality control and testing protocol, as well as documentation than the average handloader.

Granted, many handloaders do run their processes to the gnat’s eyelash - but do they document every single aspect? How many actually run repeated (and repeatable) tests in ballistic gelatin, all prepared and conducted according to an industry standard. I know that I sure don’t.

I agree that handloading is far and away more economical - I’m at about 15 cents/rd for 45-200gr FMJ hardball as a training round - definitely lots better than ~$1/rd for my carry ammo.

As far as what the jury would think, that’s where one’s ability to articulate comes in - training, situation, what you were thinking at the time.

And for cases being decided on the issue - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not once did I quote any particular instance. My theme has been that of keeping potentially adverse information out of the hands of those prosecuting the case. Offered as food for thought.

YMMV.


31 posted on 10/07/2012 8:53:24 PM PDT by castlebrew (Gun Control means hitting where you're aiming!))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: familyop

thank you for your good thoughts. Had traffic. May have sold it.

Some new casting equipment may be coming my way....535 grain Postell or 152 grain Nei collar button? Only time will tell. Hahaha


32 posted on 10/08/2012 7:07:21 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

My handloads are much more consistent than factory rounds. The next time you get a box of ammo weigh the rounds. You may be surprised at the variance in weight. They are “suitable” for the use for which they were designed, not necessarily the most accurate.

My bullets are fitted to the gun and they are more accurate than factory loads. And the loads are designed for accuracy rather than hitting power. Frequently the most accurate round is in the lower pressure ranges: There is no relationship between velocity and accuracy.

As far as handing a point to a DA there are limits to this. The coroner is in charge of that and the DA will not make the charge of super hot loads unless there is plenty of evidence in the coroner’s report and there is quite frankly very little room in the gun’s engineering for super hot loads. Those who do experiment with high velocity loads will eventually balloon the breech or burst the barrel leaving their guns useless.

And I do agree, it has been a very interesting thread.


33 posted on 10/08/2012 7:39:13 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

“is the repeatability aspect. My point was that the manufacturers have a much better-defined quality control and testing protocol, as well as documentation than the average handloader.”

No, they don’t. That’s another urban legend spread on the Internet. I have had plenty of bad factory ammo but not a single bad handload. Factory ammo clocks all over the place, but my handload are match grade consistent. Factory ammo looks pretty, but so do my reloads. The idea that handloads must be “target practice” only is bunk. I handload only loads I would carry, Speer Gold Dot/Deep Curl; there is simply nothing better. The idea that handload must somehow be inferior to factory is just plain ignorant. I handload to get better ammo and a cheaper cost, it’s a twofer win.


34 posted on 10/08/2012 8:17:47 AM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: castlebrew

“My theme has been that of keeping potentially adverse information out of the hands of those prosecuting the case. “

Fairytales and superstitions have no place in reality. Until you’ve actually been in a shoot and the process that follows you have no idea what you are talking about. I am sick and tired of hearing every inexperienced idiot opine about if and buts without any common sense of reality. People saying handloads are dangerous before a court without there having been a single instance of such a thing even after thousands and thousands of cases before the courts only hurts the reloading industry. It is as bad as any liberal talking about guns.

“If ‘if’ and ‘buts’ were candy and nuts we’d all have a merry Christmas!”


35 posted on 10/08/2012 8:24:01 AM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

“I stopped reading Ayoob when I hit the factory ammo issue.”

That and when he tried to present himself as having been in actual combat or gun fights by carefully wording his speeches only to find out he’s never been in either.

I’ve read a number of his comments over the years that were simply academic in nature and not based in reality.


36 posted on 10/08/2012 8:30:24 AM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

I have been told that Ayoob was not a street cop. I don’t know whether that is true or not.

I have been in a tactical fight (that resulted in no shots fired) which may give me more experience than he has.


37 posted on 10/08/2012 8:37:50 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

He claims to have been a line officer but I found years back he had not been; he was a petty crimes investigator. Mr. Ass has on many occasions talked about things not factually correct. He started his rise to fame by writing stories, fictional for the most part although he presented them as factual. He has been discredited so many times as to make him telling the time laughable, yet, every kid on AR15.com thinks Mr. Ass is a gunslinger of the first order. He had less than 10 years as an investigator and started writing these stories. They were gripping and full of action and drama, but they were completely untrue. Mr. Ass even claimed to have been a court witness and claimed to have swayed court cases when he never was on the stand nor did he provide any testimony of any sort, oral or written. He was simply a liar. He made bravado and it stuck with the feeble minded cop mentality back in the early 1980’s. He still gets that mentally all hot and bothered with his tales of bold.


38 posted on 10/08/2012 9:08:39 AM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

Well that would match the stories I have heard. Not a line cop at all.

I wonder who he ticked off that he wound up investigating petty crimes.


39 posted on 10/08/2012 11:30:09 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers

You could benefit from reloading. Lee has a Challenger Anniversary kit that will get you started. The only thing missing is the die set.

It is very easy and safe to do. I wish I had started doing it decades before I took the plunge.


40 posted on 10/08/2012 11:40:07 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: familyop

It’s not the past cases that matter, it’s that YOU could be the first. There are some interactions of common practice vs. letter of law which have not been a problem ONLY because anti-gun prosecutors aren’t smart enough to take advantage of what’s available to abuse.

I’ve talked with Ayoob about the issue; he feels it’s his job to explain what _could_ be a problem for you, what your best options are, and leave it to you whether you wish to take risk A or risk B, both of which are nonetheless risks.


41 posted on 10/08/2012 11:45:30 AM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

Small town cop shop. No need for heavy duty cops there. A few patrol officers, a few admin, and one ‘investigator’. Not exactly a place with homicides or organized crime.


42 posted on 10/08/2012 11:58:20 AM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

“Small town cop shop. No need for heavy duty cops there. A few patrol officers, a few admin, and one ‘investigator’. Not exactly a place with homicides or organized crime.”

Investigating cow tipping and joy rides on tractors, eh? Not a great career path.


43 posted on 10/08/2012 12:06:02 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: ctdonath2

Any representations by a DA on super hot loads must be started by the coroner. Those representations will be confirmed or shown to be without merit using ballistic gelatin matrices. End of story.


44 posted on 10/08/2012 12:09:59 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

“Any representations by a DA on super hot loads must be started by the coroner. “

Not true. The DA is not restricted to any evidence. the Coroner provides cause fo death and probable method. The DA could just as easily take whatever rounds remain in your gun, your home, your reloading bench, and test them for velocity. However, not a single case of that has ever been documented.


45 posted on 10/08/2012 12:20:56 PM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

“Must” was too strong a word. Let us say that any representation of super hot loads will be tested against a ballistic gelatin matrix and the results entered into evidence with an opinion stated to the jury.


46 posted on 10/08/2012 12:30:15 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy

“Let us say that any representation of super hot loads will be tested against a ballistic gelatin matrix “

Uh, no. DA’s offices don’t even bother with gelatin. That doesn’t prove a “hot load” velocity. Only a chronograph can do that, and I don’t know a DA’s office or a crime lab with one. Bullet velocity simply has never in any case been an issue.


47 posted on 10/08/2012 12:36:37 PM PDT by CodeToad (Padme: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: CodeToad

And will not be an issue as the remaining bullets can be tested with chrony or gelatin. Which is my point that super hot loads are testable they are not some imaginary bogeyman that can be thrown about willy-nilly by the DA.


48 posted on 10/08/2012 12:51:17 PM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: buffaloguy; CodeToad

Cartridges for police use are manufactured to do as much damage to humans as possible while keeping recoil low enough for fast, accurate follow-up shots (also for the most damage possible to a human being).

See the issues regarding 10mm, then .40 S&W. See recent changes in ammunition and bores for the more current and popular ar-15-type rifles (5.56 mm, 75 gr. Hornady TAP for law enforcement only, part #8126N, not the other one).

Manufacturers would make ammo for tiny, light weapons capable of blowing human targets to bits, if they could. They probably, eventually will, if no historical fluctuation gets in the way. Then such weapons will be illegal for most people to possess.

As for home-cast heavy lead in handloads, common knowledge holds that hard-cast, heavy bullets are not nearly as effective at causing the monstrous cavitation profiles of fancy manufactured loads.

The issue of cartridges being too hot for defense is ridiculous and irrelevant, unless innocent bystanders in the background are hit by loads that over-penetrate. Then the issue would be relevant.


49 posted on 10/08/2012 5:36:37 PM PDT by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: familyop

Good, thoughtful post.

I suspect that there are small, not necessarily high speed rounds, that are truly awful in the amount of damage that they do. Research goes on in many areas in this regard.

There is a very limited range of recoil available to ammo manufacturers in pistols. They have to be within this range in order to market their wares. Any round that exceeds it by a healthy margin will fail in the market because it is unpleasant to shoot and may be inaccurate to boot.

The maximization of damage from a small round is exactly the objectives that have been met rather well by ammo manufacturers with the Barnes bullets and others (I am not at all sure who is doing this as I am a cast boolit guy and I don’t care).

You mention hard cast bullets and reloaders. Most commercial bullets that are lead cast are usually BHN 24 (exand in the barrel at 34,000 Psi) which for you civilians is extremely hard. They tend to be undersized as well in order to fit many different guns and the result is leading, particularly at the forcing cone of a pistol and the first inch or so of the barrel because they fail to expand to seal the bore and rifling due to their hardness.

The reason they are cast so hard has to do with shipping. Softer bullets will become marked and dented if they are shipped, stored (average storage time is a little bit more than one year for most ammo) and moved very much and customers don’t like that.

I belong to several casting and reloading forums and one of the public services we provide is to disabuse new casters of their belief that hard cast bullets are better. They are inherently less accurate and will leave large quantities of lead in the gun. Most guns shoot fine with bullets that are of BHN of 10 (14,000 psi) to 14 (20,000 psi) but their are some pistols, particulary the higher pressure guns such as .357 mag and the .50 AE that are shot at BHN 18 (25,000 psi), but that is about the practical limit.

I will stop on this point as it suddenly becomes rather complicated but the action of hard cast bullets is not at all what you wish in a defensive scenario. They may not expand or they may shatter and fragment, which is less effective than simply mushrooming.

I agree that the aregument that loads being to hot for defense use is moot. If that were the case 12 gauges and .357 mags would be outlawed.


50 posted on 10/09/2012 7:12:53 AM PDT by buffaloguy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-64 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson