Skip to comments.Ayoob on Firearms +++ Massad Ayoob
Posted on 10/05/2012 8:22:55 PM PDT by djone
"The smoothbore fowling piece is the oldest style of backwoods home firearm in America; hell, they came over on the Mayflower. They've come a long way. Today's hunting shotguns, particularly when you look at turkey guns, tend to be rapid-firing pump guns and, hugely, semiautomatics. The ones you'll find at a practical shooting match (check on Hulu and watch an episode of "Three Gun Nation" to see what I'm talking about) have been tricked out with extended magazines and high-tech sights. "
(Excerpt) Read more at backwoodshome.com ...
Here’s an example that doesn’t do much for me:
“Thus, it has become the mark of the firearms professional that any single-action revolver is to be carried with an empty chamber under the hammer. Engineers may consider it redundant safety practice. Anyone with common sense calls it “the belt and suspenders approach.” Firearms professionals call it “the rule.”...End of story, end of safety lecture.”
Oddly enough, I don’t know anyone carrying a Ruger who loads 5 rounds only. Of course, most of us don’t have the spare money to buy Colts. Every revolver I own can be safely carried with 6-7 rounds. No thinking person calls it “The Rule”...
He also argues one should aim for the crotch:
“But NOTHING reduces a man’s fear of being shot in the genitals. This point of aim seems to definitely get their attention, in my experience.”
I think I’ll go for center mass. In a defensive situation, I can’t imagine the burglar noticing if I’m aiming at his crotch. Many defensive situations are barely outside contact distance, and are over in seconds.
Agreed on all that you wrote. Well said!
With single action, rocking (pulling from the holster) and firing in the general direction of the bladder/hips can be extremely dangerous for anyone who has not practiced thousands of times to pull *without* putting the thumb in front of the hammer, *before* the weapon is out and moving forward. In other words, we keep the thumb beside/behind the hammer, until the revolver is out and moving forward.
Pulling all the way up without putting any thumb or finger in front of the hammer and using both hands to cock and fire at center mass is safer for the user all the way around. Some of the cowboy action competitors (those most practiced) do it very well and quickly enough for any defense situation.
All of that said, we know that a semi-auto pistol is generally better for defense (far less training, more safety, IMO, and expense to get there). But some of us love to fiddle with the old technology a lot. ;-)
Thanks for the link. Some light reading for the week is appreciated.
The current price for ammo is unacceptable. I load .45-70 rounds for .04 cents a round for roundball plinkig rounds. My full bore rounds (405 grains) are reloaded for about 11 cents per round.
Roundball works well in a .45 LC pistol and are quite cheap.
In addition, wax bullets can be used in most revolvers nearly all of your pistol training can be done with these no recoil, .02 per round, make them in your microwave, primer powered rounds. They are specific to revolvers or fixed breech guns such as derringers.
There are many shooters who cannot afford factory ammo, particularly lots of the older retired shooters.
The arguments concerning cavitation have disappeared as gun ownersip has spread to many new shooters and women. It looked dicey for a while but was another failed attempt to ban ammo by the anti-gun zealots.
In any case, Castlebrew, I would take Ayoob with a grain of salt. His insistance on semi-autos for instance is a bit over the top and it remains truism that the best gun for a n00b is a revolver. I am switching over to all revolvers this year as they are simply more fun.
Please bear with me as I am posting through a Blackberry.
A semi-automatic is much more practical, but I love the revolvers. And I figure I’ll use for defense what I shoot all the time. Heck, I had a Ruger 45 acp that I gave to my brother-in-law because after 20 years of owning it, I still hadn’t emptied the original box of ammo!
Besides...a single action reminds me not to stand in one spot and just keep pulling the trigger. Shoot, move, shoot, move.
But when I was in Afghanistan, I didn’t mind carrying an M9...and M4!
It makes good sense to use what we’re most familiar with. I hadn’t thought about single action in regards to fire-and-maneuver. That makes sense, too, for any situation allowing for using cover. Thanks!
You’re welcome, and I really hope that your house sells for a good price.
Carried an M-16 (and M-203 and M-60) off and on for the National Guard for seven years. 12B MOS. More recently, I think they’re 21Bs.
Living in the middle of nowhere, here, and looking at rifle possibilities, thought I’d try a semi-auto AR with a 16” barrel and carbine-type handguard. It’s weird. Seems like it’s made more for munchkins than men. ;-)
There is something about that statement concerning aiming at the crotch that strikes me as being weird and very unprofessional.
His comments about keeping an unloaded cylinder underneath a single action hammer is a bit strange. I don’t know anyone who does this.
You have obviousLy read a lot more Ayoob than I have and I am down with that. I stopped reading Ayoob when I hit the factory ammo issue.
I don’t reload, although I ought to start. If I do, then handloads giving a 240 grain bullet at 950 fps ought to make a very good defensive load for my Model 29. 44 specials tend to be more anemic than a 45 ACP, and 44 mag loads tend to be...well, overkill.
And no, I will NOT worry about what the DA thinks of handloads. If my guilt or innocence comes down to that, then I shouldn’t have fired in the first place. I don’t care if it is a 22, if you aren’t willing to accept killing the other person, don’t shoot him!
Heck, with a 240/250 grain bullet at 950 fps, I ought to have sample rounds for the police left in the gun. It shouldn’t take too many rounds like that to convince a person he attacked the wrong household that night!
Well, it’s been an interesting discussion.
The whole point of carrying factory loads (I should have specified primarily as typical self-defense against 2-legged varmints) is the repeatability aspect. My point was that the manufacturers have a much better-defined quality control and testing protocol, as well as documentation than the average handloader.
Granted, many handloaders do run their processes to the gnat’s eyelash - but do they document every single aspect? How many actually run repeated (and repeatable) tests in ballistic gelatin, all prepared and conducted according to an industry standard. I know that I sure don’t.
I agree that handloading is far and away more economical - I’m at about 15 cents/rd for 45-200gr FMJ hardball as a training round - definitely lots better than ~$1/rd for my carry ammo.
As far as what the jury would think, that’s where one’s ability to articulate comes in - training, situation, what you were thinking at the time.
And for cases being decided on the issue - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not once did I quote any particular instance. My theme has been that of keeping potentially adverse information out of the hands of those prosecuting the case. Offered as food for thought.
thank you for your good thoughts. Had traffic. May have sold it.
Some new casting equipment may be coming my way....535 grain Postell or 152 grain Nei collar button? Only time will tell. Hahaha
My handloads are much more consistent than factory rounds. The next time you get a box of ammo weigh the rounds. You may be surprised at the variance in weight. They are “suitable” for the use for which they were designed, not necessarily the most accurate.
My bullets are fitted to the gun and they are more accurate than factory loads. And the loads are designed for accuracy rather than hitting power. Frequently the most accurate round is in the lower pressure ranges: There is no relationship between velocity and accuracy.
As far as handing a point to a DA there are limits to this. The coroner is in charge of that and the DA will not make the charge of super hot loads unless there is plenty of evidence in the coroner’s report and there is quite frankly very little room in the gun’s engineering for super hot loads. Those who do experiment with high velocity loads will eventually balloon the breech or burst the barrel leaving their guns useless.
And I do agree, it has been a very interesting thread.
“is the repeatability aspect. My point was that the manufacturers have a much better-defined quality control and testing protocol, as well as documentation than the average handloader.”
No, they don’t. That’s another urban legend spread on the Internet. I have had plenty of bad factory ammo but not a single bad handload. Factory ammo clocks all over the place, but my handload are match grade consistent. Factory ammo looks pretty, but so do my reloads. The idea that handloads must be target practice only is bunk. I handload only loads I would carry, Speer Gold Dot/Deep Curl; there is simply nothing better. The idea that handload must somehow be inferior to factory is just plain ignorant. I handload to get better ammo and a cheaper cost, it’s a twofer win.
“My theme has been that of keeping potentially adverse information out of the hands of those prosecuting the case. “
Fairytales and superstitions have no place in reality. Until youve actually been in a shoot and the process that follows you have no idea what you are talking about. I am sick and tired of hearing every inexperienced idiot opine about if and buts without any common sense of reality. People saying handloads are dangerous before a court without there having been a single instance of such a thing even after thousands and thousands of cases before the courts only hurts the reloading industry. It is as bad as any liberal talking about guns.
If if and buts were candy and nuts wed all have a merry Christmas!
“I stopped reading Ayoob when I hit the factory ammo issue.”
That and when he tried to present himself as having been in actual combat or gun fights by carefully wording his speeches only to find out he’s never been in either.
I’ve read a number of his comments over the years that were simply academic in nature and not based in reality.
I have been told that Ayoob was not a street cop. I don’t know whether that is true or not.
I have been in a tactical fight (that resulted in no shots fired) which may give me more experience than he has.
He claims to have been a line officer but I found years back he had not been; he was a petty crimes investigator. Mr. Ass has on many occasions talked about things not factually correct. He started his rise to fame by writing stories, fictional for the most part although he presented them as factual. He has been discredited so many times as to make him telling the time laughable, yet, every kid on AR15.com thinks Mr. Ass is a gunslinger of the first order. He had less than 10 years as an investigator and started writing these stories. They were gripping and full of action and drama, but they were completely untrue. Mr. Ass even claimed to have been a court witness and claimed to have swayed court cases when he never was on the stand nor did he provide any testimony of any sort, oral or written. He was simply a liar. He made bravado and it stuck with the feeble minded cop mentality back in the early 1980s. He still gets that mentally all hot and bothered with his tales of bold.
Well that would match the stories I have heard. Not a line cop at all.
I wonder who he ticked off that he wound up investigating petty crimes.
You could benefit from reloading. Lee has a Challenger Anniversary kit that will get you started. The only thing missing is the die set.
It is very easy and safe to do. I wish I had started doing it decades before I took the plunge.