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Researchers look beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory
Phys Org ^ | October 28, 2012

Posted on 10/28/2012 8:50:13 PM PDT by JerseyanExile

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1 posted on 10/28/2012 8:50:23 PM PDT by JerseyanExile
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To: JerseyanExile

I sense a disturbance in The Force........


2 posted on 10/28/2012 8:53:45 PM PDT by Red Badger (Why yes, that was crude and uncalled for......That's why I said it..............)
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To: JerseyanExile

Whenever I read about this stuff my brain starts to hurt. I still like to do it though.


3 posted on 10/28/2012 8:55:00 PM PDT by albionin
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To: JerseyanExile
The remaining option is to accept that influences must be infinitely fast – or that there exists some process that has an equivalent effect when viewed in our spacetime.

I say this is fundamentally idiotic. It presumes a classical foundation to reality which must perforce have these strange properties to present the appearance of quantum reality. It reminds me of the old Peanuts strip where Lucy points out the queen ant to Linus, observing that all the other ants attend to her while she just sits there. Linus says, "That's not an ant Lucy, that's a jelly bean." Lucy replies, "I wonder how a jelly bean ever got to be queen?"

4 posted on 10/28/2012 8:57:40 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: JerseyanExile

When they get to the top of Quantum Mountain, St Thomas will be waiting for them with a cup of ale and some venison.


5 posted on 10/28/2012 8:57:53 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: JerseyanExile
Into the planck foam they dove, never to be seen again.

This should be interesting.

/johnny

6 posted on 10/28/2012 8:59:20 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: jwalsh07

YEP.

To me, it’s simple: What is before time began and after time ends? Easy. God.

What is one inch beyond the end of space? Easy. God.


7 posted on 10/28/2012 9:03:42 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: JerseyanExile
Science has learned to measure and describe things that are not and can't be. I am becoming more inclined to believe there is nothing.

8 posted on 10/28/2012 9:05:09 PM PDT by I see my hands (On the other hand.. dictators don't lose elections.)
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To: I see my hands

But are they really YOUR hands?


9 posted on 10/28/2012 9:10:28 PM PDT by Frapster (There you go again....)
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To: jwalsh07

It has to be admitted that Aquinas’ contemplations of the properties and powers of angels puts one in mind twentieth century quantum philosophy. Whether this puts him at the top of the Quantum Mountain, I don’t know. Perhaps one ought to be generous in these matters.


10 posted on 10/28/2012 9:13:30 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: C. Edmund Wright
God is an Awesome God.

He set up rules that we get to learn, and gave us at least one universe to play in, using those rules, if we can figure them out. Maybe more, but we see through a glass, darkly, right now.

We do stuff everyday, today that would have had you burned at the stake 200 years ago.

Organized religion is going to have to learn to accept God's universe(s) as they are. His wisdom, not ours, controls it. All we can do is learn it, to whatever extent we can.

/johnny

11 posted on 10/28/2012 9:16:04 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: I see my hands
God said Nietzshe is dead. So did the newspapers.

johnny

12 posted on 10/28/2012 9:17:57 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“Organized religion is going to have to learn to accept God’s universe(s) as they are. His wisdom, not ours, controls it. All we can do is learn it, to whatever extent we can.”

I don’t think “organized religion” has that problem...it is generally the secular world and even at times science fields themselves that seem to have the problems...


13 posted on 10/28/2012 9:22:36 PM PDT by Wpin ("I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny...")
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To: JerseyanExile
"Our result gives weight to the idea that quantum correlations somehow arise from outside spacetime

All you have to do is get rid of distance and time in our 3 spacial dimensions, one temporal dimension reference frame for entangled particles and you have spooky actions at a distance between them.
The weird stuff happens at lower dimensions (Just 2 or less), not higher, in my very, very humble opinion.

14 posted on 10/28/2012 9:22:42 PM PDT by The Cajun (Sarah Palin, Mark Levin......Nuff said.)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Really? Reminds me of a movie quote.

[Anson and Garrad have explained they must go and calculate the height.]
Thomas Twp Too: And how d’you know later?
Reginald Anson: Well, w-we’ve made, um, we’ve made measurements with those two hills, and w-we already know the height of Newton Beacon and Whitchurch Hill...
Thomas Twp: But how were they measured?
Reginald Anson: The same way, by comparing them with other hills.
Thomas Twp Too: But who measured the first hill?
Rev. Robert Jones: [whispering] God, my boy. God.


15 posted on 10/28/2012 9:24:05 PM PDT by MeanGreen2008
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To: JerseyanExile

I’m tell ya our universe and we are our Creator’s video game.. probably in the Creator’s world the equivalent of 14-year-olds are playing Good vs. Evil.


16 posted on 10/28/2012 9:31:07 PM PDT by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: Wpin
I generally take a view that covers a few centuries, since my readings take me from the 1600s to present (mostly in english and latin, granted).

Organized religion is getting better at accepting God's universe(s) recently (last 100 years or so).

Terra really does orbit Sol in an ellipse. As do the other planets and stuff in this solar system. It took a while for that to be accepted by organized religion, even with the evidence that God provided.

/johnny

17 posted on 10/28/2012 9:31:37 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

That’s Nietz-sche ... Nietzsche. Give him his due.


18 posted on 10/28/2012 9:35:03 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew

Y’know, Nietzsche says, “Out of chaos, comes order.”


19 posted on 10/28/2012 9:36:37 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Ah, but therein lies a problem: If God is outside Time, then God can neither begin, nor sustain, any action. In other words, a change in the prevailing circumstances necessitates Time. Without Time, all of God’s actions fall onto a singularity, a single moment, simply because outside Time, Time does not exist to separate the events. So, God did not yet think about creating you, God began creating you, and God ended the process of creating you, all at the same moment. That is the consequence of not being under Time. You baked the cake, ate it, and yet are still gathering ingredients for it, all at once - an absurdity. No change is possible without Time elapsing.


20 posted on 10/28/2012 9:41:02 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I had assumed you were referring to religions centuries ago...but, remember...they were the scientists most often and the debates were similar to today.

Indeed, think about the blacklisting scientists who do not drink from the global warming dogma suffer in grants and promotions at university’s etc. Heresy is now the dominion of science more than “organized religion”.

On the other hand, change takes time generally to accept in science. Like Intelligent Design rather than the failed philosophy of Darwinian Evolution theory. It will take another generation for widespread acceptance, but it will be accepted.


21 posted on 10/28/2012 9:44:15 PM PDT by Wpin ("I Have Sworn Upon the Altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny...")
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To: James C. Bennett

Be careful reducing the power of an almighty God to our understanding of science.


22 posted on 10/28/2012 9:45:22 PM PDT by TheZMan (Obama is without a doubt the worst President ever elected to these United States)
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To: JRandomFreeper
Terra really does orbit Sol in an ellipse. As do the other planets and stuff in this solar system.

Well, if you want to get picky ... no. Elliptical orbits solve the Newtonian two body problem, and hence represent a conceptual advance over eccentric circular orbits, but Kepler's third law may be disovered to be in error by checking against Norton's Sky Atlas with a calculator. This is not to mention perturbations. So even within Newtonian dynamics the ellipses are an idealization.

23 posted on 10/28/2012 9:45:42 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: JerseyanExile

Ah yes, the four particle hidden influence inequality experiment. That’s the one that turns the experimenter’s planet into a lovely glowing red ball for a few seconds before it expands into a much larger orange ball that suddenly goes dark.


24 posted on 10/28/2012 9:55:40 PM PDT by TChad
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To: dfwgator

Google tells me you are quoting BLAZING SADDLES.

For actual attribution I only find, “I tell you: one must still have chaos within oneself, to give birth to a dancing star.”

We might compare this to Genesis 1:2 and find it moving in the same orbit.


25 posted on 10/28/2012 10:01:59 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew
Get me a new keyboard, and I might. ;)

The particular bit of crap moving under the keys works it's way from the left shift button to the right shift button in a somewhat parabolic arc. It's an FR fault. I wind up laughing too much over the keyboard.

/johnny

26 posted on 10/28/2012 10:14:47 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JerseyanExile

I had a dream (last year?) and I posted it it here on FR that explained everything ...

Basically Reality is a Hologram on about a million panes of Glass and the Big Bang is when God Dropped them “BOOM” now there are Hundreds of Millions of copies of Reality that God is sweeping up... the many shards of the many many Universes into a Dust Pan muttering OK “Practice Makes Perfect” and we are the Reality of one of those few pieces that were lost under the couch.

Just kidding, we are probably the one that is on his slide under the Microscope...

Don’t know... I may have to have that dream again to be sure.

Never-mind

TT


27 posted on 10/28/2012 10:16:25 PM PDT by TexasTransplant (Radical islam is islam. Moderate islam is the Trojan Horse.)
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To: dr_lew
Dude, I'm a cook. Describing Terra's orbit as an ellipse is within order of magnitude, and close enough to hit Mars if you keep your units straight. ;)

/johnny

28 posted on 10/28/2012 10:18:12 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

In case you don’t know, if you draw a circle with a compass on an 8X11 sheet of paper, the shape of earth’s orbit will easily lie within the pencil line of that circle.

... so let’s not sell Ptolemy short! ... and I mean that sincerely.


29 posted on 10/28/2012 10:26:13 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: JerseyanExile

“Mathematically (and mind-bogglingly), these constraints define an 80-dimensional object. The testable hidden influence inequality is the boundary of the shadow this 80-dimensional shape casts in 44 dimensions. The researchers showed that quantum predictions can lie outside this boundary, which means they are going against one of the assumptions.”

Um...good luck to all with this bit!


30 posted on 10/28/2012 10:30:55 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: dr_lew
Terra's orbit... roughly 16 light minutes, reduced to 8". I'm going to call that 2 light minutes per inch. My pencil uses 0.5 lead(which is graphite). And it's unit of measure is mm, so convert back to imperial, and you get 0.019685 inches for the pencil line width.

So... 0.019685(2*60*C)... yeah. that's a wide line.

Cook math. It's all I got.

/johnny

31 posted on 10/28/2012 10:38:03 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: dr_lew
ANY thread on FR has an appropriate Blazing Saddles quote. Most of life does.

Mel Brooks... What a guy...

/johnny

32 posted on 10/28/2012 10:50:30 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JerseyanExile

I think this calls for an Endowed Chair and a new wing on the school of theoretical mathematics somewhere. Until then there are papers to be written and book manuscripts to be delivered to the publishers. Maybe conferences in nice places to study the universe over good wine.

Somehow or another we’ll get it all sorted out.


33 posted on 10/28/2012 10:56:26 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: JerseyanExile

LOL.... this really is a lot simpler than they make it.

They do not consider that the operational frequency of consciousness increasing past the speed of light collapses the time space continuum. When the soul is cleansed of the anchors of low frequency thoughts this is not that difficult. It’s how I see the future in meditation.

Sorry to say, I don’t like what I see.


34 posted on 10/28/2012 10:56:58 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: JRandomFreeper

I follow you up to 0.019685” = 0.5 mm . Not so sure what 2*60*C signifies.

The idea is that the eccentricity of earth’s orbit is 0.0167, but this is the “off centeredness”, which is the distance of the focus of the orbit from the center, in terms of the radius, or more precisely, the semimajor axis, and a circle shifted by this amount gives an excellent approximation to earth’s orbit. Considered as an ellipse, the minor axis is sqrt( 1 - e^2) times the major axis, or approximately ( 1 - 1/2 e^2 ) or (1 - 0.00014)

But 0.00014 X 8” is 0.001” which is to be compared to the pencil line width of 0.02” . So when I say “easily”, I mean that the pencil line width is twenty times as great as the difference between the major and minor diameters of the earth’s orbit, accurately drawn.


35 posted on 10/28/2012 11:09:13 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: albionin
Whenever I read about this stuff my brain starts to hurt.

Don't worry about it. That always happens when it stretches.

36 posted on 10/28/2012 11:09:33 PM PDT by Erasmus (Zwischen des Teufels und des tiefen, blauen Meers)
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To: dr_lew
2 light minutes per inch, per the scale you specified (orbit of earth drawn as a circle on 8 1/2 x 11 paper).

Multiply by 60 to get light seconds per scale inch.

Multiply by C (speed of light) to get answer in whatever unit of measure you use for C. I use 186000 miles per second. Multiply by the paper line width. That's the width of the line, to scale.

Cook math. Order of magnitude. Close enough. I don't launch Mars orbiters, and if I did, I'd keep the units the same, even if we were using furlongs per fortnight.

/johnny

37 posted on 10/28/2012 11:25:54 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I can only say that I regard myself as familiar with the movie, having seen it first run, and several times after that, and I’m rather chagrined that I didn’t recogize the quote. Well, ars longa vita brevis.


38 posted on 10/28/2012 11:31:13 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew
I watch it regularly, since I have the DVD. But you knew I was sorta crazy, without me telling you that. ;)

I like to laugh. I can quote long parts of it. Cooks do weird stuff, when you don't work 'em hard enough.

BTW, my speed of light number in furlongs per fortnight is 1.8026175* 10^12.

/johnny

39 posted on 10/28/2012 11:39:51 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper
Multiply by C (speed of light) to get answer in whatever unit of measure you use for C. I use 186000 miles per second. Multiply by the paper line width. That's the width of the line, to scale.

You're scaling the line up to "actual size", with units unspecified, which begs the question. That question is namely, what is the ratio of the major and minor axes of earth's orbit? and how does it compare with the ratio of an 0.5 mm pencil line to an 8" diameter drawn circle?

40 posted on 10/28/2012 11:40:09 PM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew
How far off is my answer compared to yours? In miles? More than an order of magnitude? ;)

/johnny

41 posted on 10/28/2012 11:48:17 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

You didn’t give an answer. How could you have? You never addressed the question. The question relates to the deviation of the earths orbit from a circle, as characterized by its eccentricity. You never got anywhere near this.

You provided a formula for the width of a 0.5mm pencil line forming an 8” circle scaled up to the size of earth’s orbit. You considered no information about the shape of this orbit.

“Trust me, I know what I’m doing.”

I was a physics TA! ... back in the day.


42 posted on 10/29/2012 12:03:09 AM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew
How wide is a pencil mark depicting the orbit of Terra on a sheet of 8 1/2 x 11" piece of paper, scaled to size? How does that compare to the actual orbit of Terra?

Physics TA... is a circle an ellipse?

Cooks know the answer to that question.

/johnny

43 posted on 10/29/2012 12:12:06 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

But the question is, granting that the earth’s orbit is an ellipse, how close is it to a circle? I’m saying that it is so close that it would, to scale, easily fit within an 8” diameter circle formed by an 0.5mm pencil line. OK?


44 posted on 10/29/2012 12:37:29 AM PDT by dr_lew
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To: dr_lew
Absolutely agree. With lotsa, lotsa room.

/johnny

45 posted on 10/29/2012 12:42:16 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: James C. Bennett

The shallowness of your atheistic closed mind is stunning - almost numbing - in your inability to think outside the box. Transcendent is the concept you miss. If you reject it, reject away, but your arguments made no sense whatsoever.


46 posted on 10/29/2012 5:45:14 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: JerseyanExile

I hope God doesn’t lose the password he put on to block others from hex-editing the universe. There would be consequences if, say, some curious chattering chimp got hold of the keys and started fiddling with the Planck Constant or some such. “Hmmm, let me just nudge this part up to 6.63, I’ll make this 10 to the negative 31st and see what happens.”


47 posted on 10/29/2012 5:56:15 AM PDT by Sirius Lee
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To: JRandomFreeper

bttt


48 posted on 10/29/2012 5:58:46 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Obama's Shuck and Jive Ends With Benghazi Lies ~ Sarah Palin)
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To: JRandomFreeper
ANY thread on FR has an appropriate Blazing Saddles quote. Most of life does.

I find that quotes from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy work pretty well anywhere as well.

Just wait until the boffins discover Bistromathematics, and improbability theory.

49 posted on 10/29/2012 6:33:21 AM PDT by zeugma (Rid the world of those savages. - Dorothy Woods, widow of a Navy Seal, AMEN!)
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To: JRandomFreeper
BTW, my speed of light number in furlongs per fortnight is 1.8026175* 10^12.

You could also say that C = mach 904,460 (32°F @ sea level)

50 posted on 10/29/2012 6:49:49 AM PDT by zeugma (Rid the world of those savages. - Dorothy Woods, widow of a Navy Seal, AMEN!)
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