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Researchers look beyond space and time to cope with quantum theory
Phys Org ^ | October 28, 2012

Posted on 10/28/2012 8:50:13 PM PDT by JerseyanExile

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To: C. Edmund Wright

To put it simply, show how temporal separation between events can occur without Time to prevent all events from occurring simultaneously. Use all the depths of your “outside box” thinking to provide an answer. Otherwise, you are claiming the equivalent of the existence of square-shaped triangles and when I ask you how, you say I’m not thinking deep enough.


51 posted on 10/29/2012 8:51:16 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett

Quantam physics have proven that time is a physical property, in other words, related to the property of space - and that is bends and changes. It is a dimension that is beyond the understanding of mere mortals - and yet mere mortals know there is a “there there” beyond our comprehension.

YOUR problem, my friend, is that you are coming at this from the template of man being the most superior being in the universe, which is atheistic by definition. You will never ever ever get it with that template. Man cannot even ask the proper questions about the limits of time and space, let alone answer them.

And yet you insist on man being the supreme. sorry, don’t fly....


52 posted on 10/29/2012 9:17:22 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: TheZMan

Our atheist is still at it....


53 posted on 10/29/2012 9:19:00 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

I asked you a very simple question: How is the temporal separation of events possible without Time?

The relevance of this question pertains to the claim that God is outside Time.

Just as God cannot be evil, since that would be an absurdity, the lack of temporal separation causes all events in a Timeless realm to collapse into a singularity moment (a logical consequence of the lack of Time). In such a realm, God did something and yet didn’t do it, simultaneously. This is the absurdity which arises from an entity ordering sequential events in a Timeless realm. How do you resolve it?


54 posted on 10/29/2012 9:24:29 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
No change is possible without Time elapsing.

Which is why God is the Creator of time. In the beginning was nothing, a void, and since there was nothing to change there was no time. (Granted, even a single atomic [classic sense of indivisible] particle there would be no time because there is nothing relative to that particle wherewith to change.)

55 posted on 10/29/2012 9:30:20 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

Any change requires Time to elapse, or else the change becomes an absurdity. If God conjured the moment to create Time, two phases exist, one where Time is yet to be created, and another where Time has already been created. Now both phases cannot exist simultaneously as that would bring about an absurdity, but the only thing that can prevent this simultaneity is Time itself, which is yet to be created during the change in the phases. This brings back the logical necessity of Time to allow any change.

While you are thinking about this, also consider the problem of Infinite Regress - for God to conjure a moment to do something, in a Timeless realm, what could the reference moment be to begin the conjured moment? If the past is infinitely endless, how can the present be arrived at?


56 posted on 10/29/2012 9:38:44 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
While you are thinking about this, also consider the problem of Infinite Regress - for God to conjure a moment to do something, in a Timeless realm, what could the reference moment be to begin the conjured moment? If the past is infinitely endless, how can the present be arrived at?

You're thinking about this incorrectly. Like the person who says that distance of an arrow shot as a function of time d(t) such that each successive value of t the distance halves means that the arrow will never cover the entire distance. This is absurd [in life] because you can fire a bow and the arrow will cover that distance in some finite (and short) period of time.

57 posted on 10/29/2012 9:47:48 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: James C. Bennett

You’re a hoot. Obtuse. Stubborn. A prisoner of your own templates while absurdly thinking you are above them - but a hoot nonetheless.

I’ll pray for you. I’m done chatting with you.


58 posted on 10/29/2012 10:01:56 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: OneWingedShark

Yes, good old Zeno’s paradox. That was not what my question relates to, however.

Without a temporal past, how can any moment be begun?


59 posted on 10/29/2012 10:03:53 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

’ Organized religion is going to have to learn to accept God’s universe(s) as they are. His wisdom, not ours, controls it’. This is so true for me except I believe there is only one ‘overall’ universe as there is only one God. I still enjoy pondering about the extent of his universe as to my take on time and space.


60 posted on 10/29/2012 10:05:10 AM PDT by noinfringers2
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Pray on if it makes you feel better by fattening your ego, but you hadn’t even begun to address the problem of timeless change.

Ignoring it and running away makes your beliefs mere superstition, and that in turn explains your lack of effort in delving into the actual problem.

I’m not surprised, for that is the very nature of untested, blind faith.


61 posted on 10/29/2012 10:09:32 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
Yes, good old Zeno’s paradox. That was not what my question relates to, however.
Without a temporal past, how can any moment be begun?

Imagine a line segment, let's call it a timeline... now does the non-existence of the line past its endpoints invalidate the timeline itself?

62 posted on 10/29/2012 10:24:03 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Eyes... see... ears... hear...

or something like that.


63 posted on 10/29/2012 4:44:14 PM PDT by TheZMan (Obama is without a doubt the worst President ever elected to these United States)
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To: James C. Bennett; TheZMan

Not sure where you come up with the notion that a God who transcends time is the same thing as a God stuck in one point in time- or a God without time - and yet you do. You come at this as if you understand time totally, and a God who has a different relationship than you necessarily has a subordinate position with regard to time than you.

That is absurd, and not at all the point. You are stuck on a template. Moreover, to call this superstition or blind faith - when it is based in the highest of quantam physics - and to call it ego - when it is the total opposite of that - proves only that you are coming to this with a chip on your shoulder.

Atheism is blind faith. You have faith that man was created by a process that would be the math equivalent of a tornado ripping through a junk yard and leaving a fully assembled 747 in its wake, complete with first class wine and meals.

Go ahead, all aboard that train......


64 posted on 10/29/2012 5:58:54 PM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: OneWingedShark

For the analogy to apply, imagine you have an infinitely large sheet of paper, with its edges at infinity.

If I asked you to draw the line segment with its first of two end points (one being the “origin” of Time, “Big Bang”, etc., and the other representing the present moment) at the centre of the page (the other end point being radially away from the centre) how would you find this centre?


65 posted on 10/29/2012 10:15:19 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

It is impossible to have distinct events not fall into simultaneity without Time.

Transcendent or not, any resolution of the problem not involving Time becomes an absurdity. If you say your god can do it, it is the equivalent of claiming that your god can do evil, or make square-shaped circles. The point is that not even your god can be outside Time and order sequential events because sequence demands Time to define it. Simply put, there are some things even your god cannot do (do you disagree?).

The ego and arrogance I referred to was not what you later highlighted, but rather, your behaviour. You use choice words to label me, and then buy yourself guilt insurance by saying you’ll “pray” for me. If you have not yet completely lost / sacrificed your capacity to introspect your own behaviour to the idols of lazy dogma, you will realise it.


66 posted on 10/29/2012 10:28:17 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett

You are so close minded that don’t realize you live in a world of oblivion, one constrained by your own microscopic understanding and yet breathtaking arrogance.

You say you’ve been around FR for six years. Perhaps you might have noticed that it is a website that stands for certain principles, and arrogant malignant atheism is NOT among them.

Perhaps after this election I’ll have time and energy for apologetic discussions, until then, go away.


67 posted on 10/30/2012 5:45:32 AM PDT by C. Edmund Wright ("You Might Be a Liberal" (YMBAL) Coming out Sept 1 by C. Edmund Wright)
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To: James C. Bennett
If I asked you to draw the line segment with its first of two end points (one being the “origin” of Time, “Big Bang”, etc., and the other representing the present moment) at the centre of the page (the other end point being radially away from the centre) how would you find this centre?

In an infinite by infinite plane it simply doesn't matter because the [non-existent] edge is an infinite distance away from any given point. IOW, the origin is arbitrary and may legitimately be said to be anywhere -- thus arbitrarily deciding/defining that the "start of time" point is the origin is valid.

68 posted on 10/30/2012 7:21:02 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: C. Edmund Wright

You seem to have lost the plot.

You repeatedly say you are going away, and yet keep responding with labels and insults, obviously to feed the endless appetite of your ego, then buy yourself piety by “praying” for me. Your hypocrisy has trapped you in a mental prison you are not capable of realising the reality of.

You provided no answer of substance to the philosophical and logical questions asked, and instead chose (and continue to choose) to run away after parting with insults and labels.

Your mind is so closed, it’s ossified. That’s why you are unable to course through basic logic, falling over to dogma that you are incapable of defending, instead.


69 posted on 10/30/2012 10:10:13 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: OneWingedShark

Think about it some more. If the infinite plane has a centre that could be anywhere, then everywhere would be a centre. But can this be true? Our Universe is infinite - it has no “edge” to define its limits. If anywhere was its centre, then right now you are in the centre of the Sun.

But you obviously aren’t. So, even in infinities, centres matter. Likewise, Time cannot be “begun” without a pre-existing Time to define the change that brings about the new Time’s existence. Change, put in simpler words, is simply impossible without the lapse of Time.


70 posted on 10/30/2012 10:15:16 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
Think about it some more. If the infinite plane has a centre that could be anywhere, then everywhere would be a centre. But can this be true? Our Universe is infinite - it has no “edge” to define its limits. If anywhere was its centre, then right now you are in the centre of the Sun.

But you obviously aren’t. So, even in infinities, centres matter. Likewise, Time cannot be “begun” without a pre-existing Time to define the change that brings about the new Time’s existence. Change, put in simpler words, is simply impossible without the lapse of Time.

No, you have it wrong. It's not that everywhere is (rather can be) the center means that every point is the the same point.
Think of longitude on our planet, any particular point excepting the poles [which define the latitude] could be our 0 degrees [the prime meridian] as it is arbitrarily chosen; this does not mean that every point on the planet is the same.
(From Wikipedia)

By convention, one of these, the Prime Meridian, which passes through the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, England, establishes the position of zero degrees longitude.
[...]
Note that the longitude is singular at the Poles and calculations that are sufficiently accurate for other positions, may be inaccurate at or near the Poles. Also the discontinuity at the ±180° meridian must be handled with care in calculations. An example is a calculation of east displacement by subtracting two longitudes, which gives the wrong answer if the two positions are on either side of this meridian.

But it may actually be true that every particular point is the center of the universe. Consider the big bang, if at the beginning of time [t=infinitesimal] the universe was a single point then any point in today's universe is derived from that point thereby making all points the center.

Change, put in simpler words, is simply impossible without the lapse of Time.

You have it exactly backwards: time is the measurement of change; that is time is dependent on change... not change dependent on time.

71 posted on 10/31/2012 7:54:21 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

With the longitude example, you commit the error of mixing up axes and spatial position. The longitude fixes the rotational position about the axis of the Earth, from an arbitrarily chosen reference. The value of that rotational position is constant between the poles along the parallel (coplanar) to the axis of the Earth because you have not changed your rotational position which the longitude defines. This is nowhere applicable as an analogy to the actual point we are discussing - which is picking a moment to begin something, when you don’t have Time as a fundamental dimension to define that beginning moment.

If the Universe was a pinpoint of say 1/1000th cubic inches spherical volume, what was present to define the boundary of this pinpoint radially away from the centre? More space? A mirror?

Are you saying that if nothing changes, Time stops? If so, when exactly does Time start to flow?


72 posted on 10/31/2012 9:10:36 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett
Are you saying that if nothing changes, Time stops?

Yes, it must be so. Time is the measurement of change.
If the universe is a void, or a truly atomic particle [classic meaning of indivisible], then there cannot be any time. There can be time with a single non-atomic particle because the subcomponents can change in relation to each other.

If so, when exactly does Time start to flow?

Easy, when there are multiple items in existence.

Your question is kind of analogous to software in computer programming; in specific a variable coming into existence.
Yes, the analogy is flawed in that it's time-based, but the issue of scoping is still relevant: the creation of something that wasn't there before.

This is what happened when God started creating and said "Let there be light", bam! multiple particles, and therefore time.
That they suddenly came into being is not doubted, we're here after all. I'm not sure what it's like to be outside of time, I am after all wholly bounded by it and therefore have only time a a point of reference... but such a concept is not unheard of in the Bible, in Hebrews the prophets and heroes of faith are said to be Justified by faith looking forward to Jesus, but if God is outside of time then Jesus on the cross and Abraham trusting God are as you put it "the same moment" from God's perspective then of course Jesus can save those who died before he came to Earth... and likewise that everyone born after his death can be forgiven means that his death did not just cover sins up to that point. God is the God of Time, and not even Time can stand in God's way preventing Him from accomplishing His purposes.

73 posted on 10/31/2012 9:53:49 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: James C. Bennett
If God is outside Time,...

A better way of saying this is that God is outside of our time, our time merely being a shadow of the time that God inhabits.

74 posted on 10/31/2012 7:47:36 PM PDT by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: 6SJ7; AdmSmith; AFPhys; Arkinsaw; allmost; aristotleman; autumnraine; backwoods-engineer; ...
Note: this topic was posted October 28, 2012. Thanks JerseyanExile.


· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

75 posted on 02/08/2014 4:10:45 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: SunkenCiv
WOW!

That was fun.

Thanks for the discussion.

76 posted on 02/19/2014 5:07:31 AM PST by Ramcat (Thank You American Veterans)
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To: Ramcat

You’re welcome, but credit where credit’s due, I only posted the ping message. :’)


77 posted on 02/19/2014 5:48:57 PM PST by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
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To: James C. Bennett

“That is the consequence of not being under Time”

That shows a bit of hubris that you can try to define to our creator what His limitations are. Sheesh!


78 posted on 02/20/2014 1:23:57 PM PST by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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To: James C. Bennett

“In such a realm, God did something and yet didn’t do it, simultaneously. This is the absurdity which arises from an entity ordering sequential events in a Timeless realm. How do you resolve it?”

I can imagine the scene at your judgement. In the smallest unit of TIME, it will be evident, and you have just enough TIME to utter one word...

“Oh...”

Best of luck. I was as arrogant as you at one time, relying on my printed IQ score to blaze my trails before me, only to realize that the more I knew, the less I knew. Hubris to humility is a journey, friend. Don’t be so reliant on your own understanding, because it is not all that.
Back in the day I’d compare brain pans with you, but these days I just pray.

To human eyes, too much of light
Is blinding as the blackest night.
And this is so, too, of the mind,
In total ignorance it’s blind.
But more truth than it can absorb
Will overwhelm the mental orb.
So, lest our vision burn to ashes
God shows us truth in bits and flashes,
White revelations that the brain
Can comprehend and yet stay sane.
And we, poor fools, demand truth’s noon
Who scarce can bear its crescent moon.
— “White Revelations,” by Georgia Starbuck Galbraith.


79 posted on 02/20/2014 1:41:18 PM PST by ImaGraftedBranch (...By reading this, you've collapsed my wave function. Thanks.)
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