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To My Father-in-Law Who Wants to Disown Me for Voting for Romney
11-30-12 | Behind the Blue Wall

Posted on 12/01/2012 7:47:03 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall

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To: 9YearLurker

I may have slightly misstated my point. My main point is that the conflict between Islam and the West is actually a part of a broader conflict between Islam and everyone else. The relationship between “radical Islam” and the majority of Muslims is another issue entirely. I think the reality that you cited is correct, the majority of Muslims do appear to support Sharia.


151 posted on 12/02/2012 11:02:23 AM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: entropy12

For the most part, you are going to pay for their medical care anyways. The vast majority of the emergency room “freeloaders” that you’re referring to are either are illegal aliens who aren’t subject to mandates, or lower income people who will qualify for taxpayer subsidize health insurance.


152 posted on 12/02/2012 11:06:22 AM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

Fair enough. The only other distinction I might make is that most often Islam = sharia = radical Islam. Many ‘radical’ Islamists fairly, I think, make the point that there is no radical Islam: there is and it is simply Islam.


153 posted on 12/02/2012 11:21:23 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker
most often Islam = sharia = radical Islam

Unfortunately, that appears to be the case.

154 posted on 12/02/2012 11:56:08 AM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

In MA, Romneycare has affected significant number of people who could afford health insurance, but chose not to buy it.
That includes young people who do not see the need for insurance.

What we need in this country is total relaxation of restrictions on health insurance. We should be be able to buy insurance from out of state. And get away from the deluxe insurance Obamacare requires us to buy. How about a catastrophic health situation only insurance which would be lower cost and young people would be willing to buy it.

The lower income people you refer to will always be a burden on others. No change there. Romneycare has changed nothing for them.


155 posted on 12/02/2012 12:05:52 PM PST by entropy12 (The republic is doomed when people figure out they can get free stuff by voting democrats)
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To: entropy12

-— How about a catastrophic health situation only insurance which would be lower cost and young people would be willing to buy it. -—

This leaves the problem of pre-existing conditions. Rand Paul has suggested 30-year health policies, like life insurance plans.

Makes sense to.me.


156 posted on 12/02/2012 12:16:39 PM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
"It was a mistake to try to force banks to lend to those who didn't qualify, and a lot of those who faced foreclosure had no business in their houses in the first place."

It wasn't a "mistake." It was a gun to the head. When the government (with all it's mechanisms for force and enforcement) tells you to lend to, you lend.

And who pays for that "mistake?"

All the people who played by the rules. They didn't buy homes that they could not afford but they sure as hell lost all that equity in their homes and are still dealing with the fallout of decisions they had no part in.

That "planned real estate/Freddie/Fannie" crash caused the BIGGEST theft of American wealth EVER. Not just bank bailouts but lost equity. It's impossible to know exactly how much wealth was looted and redistributed.

"But regardless, banks were still ultimately in charge of their own affairs"

Sounds a lot like blaming the victim. Oh, sorry our stupid, greedy, marxist, blame-whitey-to-get-minorities-free-houses plan caused the crash, but well you should have known better. And even if we stand outside your bank and protest and call you racist and stop you from doing business and threaten to go to your home where your children are, it's your fault for giving into to the our childish and dangerous desires.

We did know better but that doesn't stop the IRS or union goons.

Like all former Obama supporters, you only care now because "the bell now tolls for thee." Before, you thought someone else was going to get it.

Seems like your sudden conversion to conservatism (dubious)and biggest concern is that Hispanics are upsetting the black lock on "white guilt" and most favored minority status.

Tell me, if blacks were better off after four years of the same illegal machinations of Obama would you care? No, you wouldn't care about all his treachery. You only care because your ox was gored.

157 posted on 12/02/2012 12:24:55 PM PST by Smokeyblue
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To: entropy12

I agree. The so-called freeloaders should be offered catastrophic only health insurance at low cost, as opposed to being forced to buy expensive insurance that they are statistically unlikely to use.


158 posted on 12/02/2012 12:41:42 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
Yes, I was pro-life before my own child was born, but I haven't always been pro-life. I grew up in an environment where a "woman's right to choose" was sacrosanct and unquestioned, and it wasn't until I started to learn about the other side of the argument, and experience a bit of how the world really works, that I began to consider and then subscribe to the view that life begins at conception, and that life should be protected against even its own mother's "decision"

Congratulations on coming around, but it's no wonder you supported Romney. He didn't come to that conclusion himself until he decided it was his "turn" to be President.

I confess that I don't personally have a very strong opinion on gays in the military. If the military leadership said, "we can't do this, it would hurt morale, discipline, etc.", I would support them. The current military leadership (and I certainly understand those who believe that they are illegitimate or somehow compromised in being able to express the truth) seems to be OK with it, so I'm probably OK with it.

If you believe that, and you truly do believe as you said that gay "marriage" is really okay. you're posting on the wrong forum. Take a look at the purpose of this website -- pro-God, pro-family.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1103363/posts

159 posted on 12/02/2012 12:43:07 PM PST by Colonel_Flagg ("Don't be afraid to see what you see." -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: Smokeyblue

There were major banks that didn’t need or want to be bailed out by the government, and they were playing by the same rules as everyone else. The people who lost equity and homes through no fault of their own are the people that might have been protected if the banks had been either forced to take their losses or forbear from foreclosing to an extent. The people who bought houses they couldn’t afford would not be saved by any amount of forebearance.

Making it personal about me is sort of silly. I have marketable skills and I’ve been conservative in my finances — I’m doing fine for now, as is my immediately family. The future does look bleak, as it does for all Americans, in my opinion.

If you’re talking about “illegal machinations”, then no, no amount of being better off can compensate for the loss of our rights under the Constitution. As I tried to explain to my father in law, if we do not have the Constitution and the rule of law in force, then we are not free. We might be more comfortable as slaves/serfs, or not, but I’d certainly rather be poor but free, than “comfortable” in a state of slavery.

But yes, if Obama had put into place a set of free market policies, based on the Constitution, that had the effect of bringing about a growing and prosperous economy, and black Americans were participating in that growth and prosperity, then I’d have certainly not opposed him on that basis. I suppose you could say that if his socialist policies had succeeded in the same, then I also would still support him, but I now understand that to be an impossibility.


160 posted on 12/02/2012 12:52:29 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Colonel_Flagg
you're posting on the wrong forum.

Maybe so . . . I think I agree with most Freepers on most things, but if the fact that I'm not particularly concerned one way or the other whether grown men and women who have sex with each other (respectively) want to get "married" or serve in the military disqualifies me from posting here, then so be it, I'll have to find another forum.

161 posted on 12/02/2012 1:04:03 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
"if the banks had been either forced to take their losses"

That's rich. The government forces the banks to make bad loans to un-creditworthy borrowers based on "communities of color" not sound economics and when these banks try to protect themselves and cover the very predictable losses with insurance derivatives it becomes their fault and they need to take "their" losses. Not theft by ACORN but "their" losses.

There were major banks that didn’t need or want to be bailed out by the government

So? That does not mean that they didn't lose money on these same bad loans. It just means either they didn't want anything to do with the government after the fact or didn't go hog wild with derivatives. Have you seen the books for these banks? Maybe they just ate the losses that were forced upon them.

Do you not see that it was the intervention of government and CRA that set this whole thing in motion?

162 posted on 12/02/2012 1:19:15 PM PST by Smokeyblue
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To: Smokeyblue

I do see that it was the intervention of government and CRA that set this whole thing in motion. So you agreed with the bailout?


163 posted on 12/02/2012 2:20:10 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: napscoordinator

Awww... :-)


164 posted on 12/02/2012 2:54:55 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international. Gone.)
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To: Psalm 144

Thank you !


165 posted on 12/02/2012 2:55:38 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international. Gone.)
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
"Blacks as a group in America are materially worse off than average by almost every measure."

But why is this? The root cause of the problem is the breakdown of the black family. When the great majority of black children are born to single mothers, the kids' chances of being poor and ending up in prison greatly increase.

"I don’t think you have to be racialist in order to be particularly concerned about helping them to improve their situation."

How do you help people who apparently aren't willing to help themselves? Since the Great Society, we've spent $17 trillion on social programs. What good has it done? To rectify the situation blacks find themselves in, they need to decide they are going to wait until marriage to have children, and black men need to stick around to be fathers to those children. Returning to the pre-Great Society morality, along with getting off the government teat, is absolutely necessary if black people wish to succeed. Until then, with all respect to you, I'm tired of being told the responsibility to help blacks lies with me (or anyone, except themselves).

166 posted on 12/02/2012 2:58:41 PM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: entropy12

Despite your Liberal talking points, I’m not in favor of the obligation to pay for “freeloaders”.


167 posted on 12/02/2012 3:18:22 PM PST by Gene Eric (Demoralization is a weapon of the enemy. Don't get it, don't spread it!)
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

It’s really neither here nor there whether I supported the bailouts or not. I was 50/50. Depending on the day. Sometimes for it. Sometimes against it. It’s like asking me how I want to clean up a gushing wound. With a sponge or a band-aid? I didn’t like either option.

I don’t think Obama and his involvement with a CRA lawsuit in 1995 was any coincidence. I really believe that Obama, ACORN, Ayers, Soros, and an assorted group of marxist radical misfits have been systematically undermining everything about America for decades. They are like the 911 terrorists. Decisions about what to do AFTER the fact are debatable. They should have been stopped before the attacks.

And I certainly think that the timing of the crash (though ultimately inevitable) was completely orchestrated in Obama’s favor.

“In 1995, Barack Obama was the lead attorney in an anti-discrimination lawsuit filed against Citibank for alleged “red-lining” practices which the plaintiffs claimed denied equal access to mortgage loans for African-Americans.”

This from a guy who NEVER really practiced law. The ONE case he works on (as lead attorney, no less) is a CRA lawsuit.


168 posted on 12/02/2012 3:23:31 PM PST by Smokeyblue
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
I'm late to this party, skimmed your letter and haven't read the thread.

My f-i-l did this kind of thing when I (and his daughter) supported Reagan when we first got married in our twenties.

He eventually became unbearable, like most libs just whined and complained, and he just got worse about it.

He never took the time to listen, nor could he actually discuss what our beliefs were, he just got more and more angry and frustrated.

I wish there were a happy ending, but from my experience, unless he has a mind boggling moment of clarity or a major conversion, this will end badly.

If he changes, great, more power to both of you. The likelihood is he will not change, and will not put it aside as a simple irreconcilable difference. Libs don't do that.

If you want to survive with him, and if your spouse is aligned with you, you either quarantine him talking politics, see him as little as possible, or both.

You owe this to your kids.

169 posted on 12/02/2012 3:56:30 PM PST by Lakeshark (!)
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To: CatherineofAragon

Nowhere did I say that the responsibility to help blacks relies with you or anyone other than blacks ourselves. I prefaced my comment by stating that this is a conversation between blacks about whether or not I’m a traitor to my race for not supporting Barack Obama. I think a good defense to that charge is to point out the ways in which Obama’s policies have been harmful to blacks.

I would agree that a major part of the problems facing blacks have to do with the breakdown of the black family, but there is a lot of literature, much of it by conservative scholars, that addresses the ways in which government policies have contributed to that problem. The same things are starting to happen to white families more and more, and you would ignore the role government policy plays in that to your detriment.

There’s also a basic reality that economic opportunity and prosperity contribute to family formation, and vice-versa, government policy that hurts the private sector and prioritizes government dependence, detract from family formation. It’s a basic fact that men who see no economic future for themselves are not generally included to sign up for the role of family breadwinner; women who think they can get by with government assistance are less likely to get married. Conservative policies make it easier for men to make a living and harder for women to survive on government benefits; the result is likely to be more family formation and preservation.

The vast majority of that $17 trillion that you refer to has been directed toward encouraging ever more government dependence and family breakdown; very little of it has been spent “teaching a man to fish” so to speak.

But I do absolutely agree that no matter what government policies are in place, black men failing to take responsibility for their children is a moral crisis that needs to be addressed by blacks ourselves. For the record, my son was born into a family where his father is married to his mother, both of his grandfathers are married to his grandmothers, and so on and so forth as far back as I’m aware. Black men taking care of their families will be the only thing my son knows about until he ventures outside of his family.


170 posted on 12/02/2012 3:57:02 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
Look, me, my father in law, and Barack Obama are all “black”, and my father in law’s principal reason for disowning me is that I am a traitor to the black race/cause, etc. by not supporting him

You're in luck. Tell your PhD F-I-L to look up Obama's family tree.

Obama is 50% white, 42% Arab and 8% black.

So, how are you a traitor to a man who is not black? Obama is a minority of a minority.

And tell him also, that it is racist to vote for something based solely on the color of his skin. You know, like George Wallace and the Southern white Democrats used to do.

And it certainly is not in keeping with Martin Luther King Jr.'s comment on the content of character being the criteria to judge upon.

Your F-I-L is seriously racist--another reason he should not be around to pollute your kids.

171 posted on 12/02/2012 4:22:05 PM PST by exit82 ("The Taliban is on the inside of the building" E. Nordstrom 10-10-12)
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To: goodnesswins

Good luck in getting anyone to read that tome.


172 posted on 12/02/2012 4:31:02 PM PST by Cuttnhorse
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To: exit82

You know I tried to follow up on that theory of him being Arab once, and I wasn’t really able to find a good reason to think that his Kenyan family was Arab. Arabs in East Africa have Arabic last names, and Obama is an African name.

Technically, I do think that there are substantial salient differences between Africans and black Americans, so in that sense I sort of agree with you that he’s not really black. But that argument would fall on deaf ears with my father in law because he clearly believes that Obama is black.

I do agree with you absolutely that a person should be judged based on their actions not on their skin color, and I said as much in my email.


173 posted on 12/02/2012 5:50:29 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

Too long. I wouldn’t read it.

.


174 posted on 12/02/2012 5:56:17 PM PST by Mears
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To: MayflowerMadam

chuckles, maybe your grandpa and my dad were twins seperated at birth...


175 posted on 12/02/2012 9:34:03 PM PST by goat granny
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To: Gene Eric

You need to start thinking deeper. Knee jerk reactions are a sign of shallow thought process.


176 posted on 12/02/2012 10:05:36 PM PST by entropy12 (The republic is doomed when people figure out they can get free stuff by voting democrats)
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

Very well done post, thank you.

Visibility BUMP.


177 posted on 12/02/2012 10:57:14 PM PST by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: Behind the Blue Wall; Pelham; Travis McGee; chasio649; nathanbedford; CatherineofAragon; mrsmel
I've fought this battle here for 12 years and can see folks are more candid about race than before but still a long way to go.

a very long way and frankly it's too late now

a few years back you woulda been pandered to ad nauseum with race platitudes and Martin Luther King worship

our issues are not going to be settled now the easy way

i hope things work out for you

i”m extremely pessimistic and fearful that America is not going to work out quite like a Miller Light commercial with every hue drinking responsibly in the glow of the campfire

and frankly our black or whatever name you'd prefer population is going to be a sidenote...it's about more than that

but we are lining up largely along race lines with some of each on both sides but still largely defined by it

these things never end well

I spent years in Haiti, Colombia and Sierra Leone...freepers as a rule are very naive and usually give the answer ..especially to a minority freeper...that they think will win applause..usually deferential

I see bad times ahead, I will be long dead but my descendants will likely experience serious pain and suffering.

Will it be worth it?

I applaud you trying with FIL but Igbos are a proud stock...and a bit snobby about their high rank in the west African tribal pecking order...so good luck.

But if he knows the Biafra War then he knows what i fear here, and conservatives will be the Igbo in that one...hope we fare better*

178 posted on 12/03/2012 7:18:09 AM PST by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: Smokeyblue

Yep. There was massive money market movement that could only have been an orchestrated/hedge/sovereign fund type of play that turned the tide and got Obama in office the first time.

Sandy was of natural causes, but our pathetic, self-dealing, GOPe consultant corps that ran weak-candidate Romney’s campaign into the ground was a man-made disaster.


179 posted on 12/03/2012 7:27:36 AM PST by 9YearLurker
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To: wardaddy

He certainly does know about the Biafran War, and although I didn’t “go there”, the references in my email to other places in the world where people supoort politicians on the basis of their ethnicity alone were directed towards that subtext.

I hope you’re wrong, of course, about the kinds of racial conflict that are coming our way here in the U.S. I don’t have a lot of evidence to counter your pessimistic view, but I will say, as someone who interacts with people from a variety of racial backgrounds on a daily basis, that most people are able to get along across racial lines fairly well, and don’t take their political affiliations quite as seriously as my father in law does.


180 posted on 12/03/2012 7:43:59 AM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

The problem with Obama is that he was indoctrinated into hard core leftist politics when he entered college. The hard left actively recruits blacks on college campuses, by promising them a better life. Obama fell for it. He hasn’t changed his political ideology since he was in his late teens. Leftists spit on the constitution, and believe in dismantling the economy, in order to rebuild it in their own idea of “fairness”. It has failed all over the world, everywhere it’s been tried.


181 posted on 12/03/2012 7:50:34 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Believe me, I know more than you can imagine exactly how right you are.


182 posted on 12/03/2012 7:57:40 AM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

Excellent read.

Thanks for posting.


183 posted on 12/03/2012 8:19:23 AM PST by NeoCaveman (SMOD 2012)
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To: Behind the Blue Wall

” Believe me, I know more than you can imagine exactly how right you are.”

No doubt. I don’t envy your position vis a vis your in laws. Just raise your family with good solid values, and keep an eye on what teachers are selling to your kids.


184 posted on 12/03/2012 8:30:35 AM PST by stephenjohnbanker
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To: stephenjohnbanker
Just raise your family with good solid values, and keep an eye on what teachers are selling to your kids.

Good advice, and yes, I will be keeping a very close watch on what teachers are selling.

185 posted on 12/03/2012 8:35:09 AM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall; sickoflibs; GOPsterinMA; WorkingClassFilth

I’d just the tell the SOB “I’m doing your daughter! Haha.”


186 posted on 12/04/2012 11:23:25 AM PST by Impy (All in favor of Harry Reid meeting Mr. Mayhem?)
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To: Impy; Behind the Blue Wall; sickoflibs; GOPsterinMA; WorkingClassFilth
RE :”I’d just the tell the SOB “I’m doing your daughter! Haha.”

And your grandkids wiil be going to a Tea party school to learn how O is evil.

187 posted on 12/04/2012 12:21:22 PM PST by sickoflibs (Has Bohner caved yet? And called it historic again?)
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To: sickoflibs
RE :”I’d just the tell the SOB “I’m doing your daughter! Haha.” And your grandkids wiil be going to a Tea party school to learn how O is evil.

Ha-ha. The "education" of my son was cited as one of his concerns. I plan on taking aggressive action to ensure that my son is NOT indoctrinated into the socialist, racialist mindset, so he's actually right to be concerned there. Nothing he can do about it though.

188 posted on 12/04/2012 1:02:04 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall; wideawake; x; KC_Lion
Please excuse the tardiness of this post.

I am the descendant of Southerners who fought for the Union during the Civil War, and unlike most contemporary Southern Republicans, we have identified with that party since Lincoln. Perhaps you can give me some insight into certain things I have been asking for a long time.

I can understand the Black community's obsession with matters of social/racial justice and poverty. What I cannot understand, and what I have never been able to understand, is its total lack of any concern whatsoever on moral issues.

The American Black community is one large split personality: it is Billy Sunday and Karl Marx simultaneously. Theologically it behaves as if it were to the Right of Jerry Falwell, but politically it makes Mao Tse-tung look moderate. How do you explain this? Can it even be explained?

Back in the heyday of the civil rights movement such issues as "gay marriage" and legal abortion on demand weren't even blips on the radar screen. But the Black community behaves as if those issues still didn't exist. It's as if it were forever 1954. I simply don't get this.

Do you think all Republicans are rich? I am what is popularly known as "poor white trash." My ancestors have all been poor. They were Republicans because of the Civil War and the evil of the Democrat party they had to live with. In fact, liberals can't seem to make up their minds as to whether their ultimate enemy is the plutocratic "malefactor of great wealth" or the inbred, retarded trailer park dweller. Surely they don't confuse the two?

I am not a social Darwinist or a Randian. I have remained loyal to the Republican party in part for ancestral reasons but mostly because of its stands on the moral issues that anyone of any income (or no income) can agree on. Yet I note that everyone regards these social issues, which unite people of various ideologies, as "divisive" and as things we'd be better off not thinking about. Even you, in your letter, say that "social issues" are a "distraction." Excuse me? Social conservatives are the least "heartless" and social Darwinistic members of the conservative movement. Would you and their other critics prefer they left the field altogether so that the entire political discourse of the country were limited to economics? Why in the world do you suppose only economics matters?

This highlights another "schizophrenic" (I know, that's not what it means but I use it for the private associations of the term) aspect of the American Black community: on the one hand it is proud of its "non-Western," African heritage; on the other, its philosophy is totally European. For what else are rationalism, humanism, materialism, and their ultimate expression political Leftism, but European to the core? They all originate in the eighteenth century European "enlightenment" and the materialistic philosophies of nineteenth century Europe. Voltaire was not from the "third world." Neither were Comte, Hegel, Marx, Darwin, Wellhausen, or Antonio Gramsci. Yet this is the source of "Black" political philosophy in the United States. What are Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton but Voltaire transferred to 21st century America? What is Jackson's opposition to "Western hegemony" but one gigantic lie? Just what is "African" about any of this? Even Robert Mugabe opposes "gay rights!" Is he a race traitor or an "uncle Tom?" Maybe the "rednecks" got a-hold of him and poisoned his mind?

I just don't understand any of this.

As I said earlier, I am not a social Darwinist. I would be more than happy (and so would many other social conservatives) to compromise on or mitigate the harsher positions of dog-eat-dog capitalism. (Believe it or not, even with our "white skin privelege" poor crackers can be in really desperate financial situations, I assure you; I've been there!) But there is never any offer of dialogue. There is only unremitting hostility from the Black community which goes on praying like Jimmy Swaggert and voting like Kim Il Sung. In fact, the late Ralph David Abernathy has been disowned by the "civil rights" establishment because in later life he joined the Moral Majority. I have read attacks on him that told how he had "changed." Excuse me? Just what in Moral Majority's positions conflicted with his earlier stances? There was no "jim crow" in their platform, or even much of an economic nature at all that I know of, but because he didn't "evolve" to accept abortion and "gay marriage" he's accused of having "changed?" He's an "uncle Tom" now???

All my life I have excused Black political behavior, but I always thought there would come a time when the Left would finally take a position that Blacks (especially church-going Blacks) would refuse to accept. That time has long since come and gone and church-going Blacks are still going along with everything. I have given up. I no longer expect any change of heart.

But just what is it about moral conservatism that Blacks are so opposed to? We're not talking economic, root-hog-or-die, or jim crow. We're talking our alleged "common morality." Do we even share one? Are the masses of Black America, even in the Bible-belt, really such moral nihilists? If so, how long have they been this way? Did they pass their time in the cotton fields having intellectual discussions about the dialectic?

As an Old Southern Republican (and not any Dixiecrat convert from 1964) I used to look up to the American Black community. My positive stereotype was as great as any liberal's. But I must confess to you that that admiration died a long time ago. I honestly believe that if John Brown himself could see the political alliances of his beloved Blacks, he would be a Dixiecrat himself!

Let me close by asking one final question--and do please consider it before simply dismissing me as a "racist crank" (I didn't used to be, believe me). Would any Blacks be open to the idea of a new party that mixed economic liberalism with moral conservatism? This would, after all, negate all the "heartless capitalist" rhetoric one hears as an excuse to remain in the party of Hell. I'm serious! You think such a party couldn't exist? What do you think the Democrat party of Harry Truman was? Or for that matter of William Jennings Bryan? Or look at conservatism outside the United States, especially in traditionally Catholic cultures. It is very different from American market libertarianism. There is no need to insist that economic liberalism and moral conservatism could never work together. That is just an excuse.

The only reason for maintaining this fiction is that one is opposed to moral conservatism in and of itself. Perhaps that's what it is. Perhaps the economic arguments are just a fig leaf, an excuse to keep supporting depravity and nihilism. If that is so, there are penalties to be paid for such attitudes and behaviors . . . and the penalties won't be executed by any "Bible-banging crackers." As surely as G-d exists He will not allow such behavior to continue forever without punishment. If Black America doesn't amend its moral positions it will pay severely one day, and not by any "white backlash" but from G-d Himself--the same G-d so many Blacks worship in a way little different from snake-handling "hillbillies" in West Virginia.

Is there hope for an end to total alliance with moral nihilism? I sincerely hope so. If not, then the die is cast and it's too late to do anything about it.

It is an unfortunate fact that past behaviors by religious people seems to led to the idea among certain segments of the population that they can only be truly safe in a sewer. Those who have wished for such a thing may get it . . . and it's not going to be the nirvana they hoped for. It's going to be Hell.

189 posted on 12/05/2012 10:20:54 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
It is an unfortunate fact that past behaviors by religious people seems to led to the idea among certain segments of the population that they can only be truly safe in a sewer. Those who have wished for such a thing may get it . . . and it's not going to be the nirvana they hoped for. It's going to be Hell.


190 posted on 12/05/2012 10:42:51 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I think you raise some excellent questions. I actually believe that one of the reasons that the Democratic Party power structure fell in line so quickly behind Barack Obama in the primary against Hillary Clinton was to head off any potential split between black Americans and the Party over any number of growing conflicts, including between black parents and teacher’s unions, black job seekers and global warming extremists, and most maybe most importantly, black church-goers and gay activists.

The election of Barack Obama quashed any chance that any of those conflicts would have any effect in the big picture any time soon. The bond between blacks and the Democratic Party had been welded even further, and there’s very little that the Party could do platform and policy wise that would significantly change that, short of advocating a return to slavery.

So the simple answer to your question of how it is that blacks manage to reconcile very conservative religious beliefs and very liberal politics is race: the great majority of blacks vote on the basis of race, and they perceive that the Democratic Party is for their race, while the Republican Party is against it. It’s really as simple as that. There is a small minority (probably 10-20%) that actually votes based on the actual platforms and agendas of the two parties, but even if half of them agree and vote with the Republican Party, that still leaves just a 5-10% share of the total, which is about what the GOP has gotten over the last several cycles.

Unfortunately, all of the philosophical contradictions that you point out matter not in the least to the average black person who has been taught and strongly believes in one simple rule of politics: Democrats like black people, and Republicans don’t. It’s not rational, or principled, and I’d certainly argue that it’s not a wise posture to adopt, and I’d also argue that it’s at odds with history, and with the facts on the ground, but again, none of that matters either. People believe this to be so, so for all intents and purposes, it is so.

I do believe that blacks by and large are social conservatives. They do go to church, and they do hear conservative religious messages, and they do believe them. But the fact of their racial identity is more important in terms of how they behave politically.

I will confess that in my email to my father in law, I may have downplayed the importance of social issues more so than my actual feelings. This is because all leftists believe very strongly in the argument that Republicans use social issues to convince ignorant poor white people to “vote against their own interests” in supporting the GOP. It strikes at the core of their belief system to point out the obvious fact that it was Democrats who used social issues to distract voters from economic issues in this election.

I do have mixed feelings, however, on social issues as a basis for voting. If there’s a general principle that I subscribe to, it’s that consenting adults should be able to do what they want in a free country so long as it doesn’t directly affect anyone else, but once their “liberties” begin to impact upon the life or liberty of others, there’s a role for the state to step in. With gay marriage you have two consenting adults, and their getting married does not directly affect anyone else. With abortion, you have an innocent victim who cannot defend or speak for itself. They may be equally abhorrent in the eyes of the Church, but in the view of government and morality, I would look at them differently.

I do believe in religious freedom, however, including the right not be forced to provide contraceptives, abortions, gay adoptions, etc., and so there’s another place that I would draw a line that would put me on the side of social conservatives. But for me personally, I just don’t really care what people do with each other sexually so long as it doesn’t affect me personally, and if they want to consummate that activity in state-recognized marriage, again, it doesn’t affect me. In fact, I’d really prefer not to even think about it, to the extent that it involves things that are sexually repulsive to me, and so elevating it as a political issue . . . um, no.

But no I don’t wish for social conservatives to be expelled from the GOP. With the exception of abortion and religious freedom, as stated above, I’d probably be comfortable with the “truce” suggested by Mitch Daniels, including a “punt” on most issues back to the states under principles of federalism. I think the best solution might ultimately be for us to celebrate instead of fight against the fact that federalism allows for there to be some places with very strict social mores encoded into local and state laws, and other places that are far more liberal.

I’m not sure that I would support a socially conservative economically liberal party. I think that combination has traditionally been organized under the banner of “Populism”, which I have a couple of problems with: as noted above, I have a libertarian streak that competes with my social conservatism, and while I believe that government should provide a safety net, I also believe that freer markets = greater total prosperity, which benefits everyone. Again, I’d probably vote for a more federalist approach, where some states would be heavily regulated with generous social programs, other states more free, and then let people “vote with their feet” for what they prefer.


191 posted on 12/05/2012 12:29:58 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Behind the Blue Wall
Thank you for your very frank reply to my questions and my (perhaps at times hostilely-worded) post.

I am not that sure if Blacks hear conservative messages at church. Certainly many Baptist and Pentecostal pastors preach the straight Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton line. It probably goes all the way back to Martin Luther King Jr., who was not an orthodox chrstian but a liberal Protestant who accepted radical higher critical German "theology" and rejected the traditional supernatural chrstian dogmas. Just how far have those (again European) patterns of thinking seeped into the general population of Aframerica?

I certainly don't think there are many Biblical fundamentalists in the NAACP or the historically Black colleges.

192 posted on 12/05/2012 1:00:13 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

You may be right. I’m religiously Jewish, so I don’t spend much time in black churches. I do know that the Reverend Wright-type “liberation theology” churches represent a fairly small minority of the total, and that there are quite a few pastors around the country who came out publicly against Obama on the gay marriage issues. But other than that, your guess is as good as mine as far what actually transpires every Sunday at the typical black church in America.


193 posted on 12/05/2012 1:10:13 PM PST by Behind the Blue Wall
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I can understand the Black community's obsession with matters of social/racial justice and poverty. What I cannot understand, and what I have never been able to understand, is its total lack of any concern whatsoever on moral issues.

That's not an uncommon response by minority groups: promoting a firm standard of morality within the group, while weakening efforts of the majority to impose standards on the minority.

I doubt it's part of a conscious strategy now. It's something that's so ingrained it's hard to shake. Some people in a minority group can make common cause with their counterparts in other groups, but for others, the opposition between groups is too strong to overcome.

What are Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton but Voltaire transferred to 21st century America? What is Jackson's opposition to "Western hegemony" but one gigantic lie? Just what is "African" about any of this?

Uh, the answers would be ... A) just about anything, B) interest group politics, and C) nothing.

What you're talking about is interest group politics, advancing what one takes to be the interest of one's group. There's a lot of religious rhetoric thrown into the mix, but I don't see any Voltaire or Comte in Jackson or Sharpton.

In the second example, Jesse Jackson and "western hegemony," if he used the phrase it probably didn't come naturally. His opposition to a "Western Civilization" curriculum had to do with getting attention and publicity, and the general philosophy of "more for us."

This isn't so very different from how other groups function. Groups struggle with each other for recognition and respect and use what they have to get it. If you have the Bible or Tolstoi you use that. Otherwise you make do with Rigoberta Menchu.

If you get that 1) it's not about some alien atheistic philosophy but about group striving for advantage, power, and position, and 2) that the policies supported don't always bring the advantages and well-being that they are supposed to, things don't look quite as bleak as you think.

Eventually some people either find different ways to play the game of group competition, or recognize that the game works to their disadvantage and the really important things have to be secured in other ways.

194 posted on 12/05/2012 4:33:41 PM PST by x
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