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Does Objective truth exist? If so, why?
unknown | Jonathan Sarfati

Posted on 12/15/2012 8:18:27 PM PST by Zeneta

I'd like to share this for those that are interested in seeking truth.

The issues run far and wide, however there seems a core to understanding that needs to be examined.


TOPICS: History; Religion; Science; Society
KEYWORDS: faithandphilosophy; objectivetruth; truth; worstexcerptever
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For those that care to ask questions. Questions that are the foundations of someones worldview, I ask you to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JVcLqGztk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4fujOG6tOU&NR=1&feature=endscreen

1 posted on 12/15/2012 8:18:31 PM PST by Zeneta
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To: Zeneta

easy links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JVcLqGztk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4fujOG6tOU&NR=1&feature=endscreen


2 posted on 12/15/2012 8:20:11 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
You have already answered the question in the affirmative.



Keep Faith with the Fallen of Benghazi! Let the Obama Regime, for once, tell the Truth!

Fiat Justitia, Ruat Coelum!

Genuflectimus non ad principem sed ad Principem Pacis!

Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. (Isaiah 49:1 KJV)

3 posted on 12/15/2012 8:23:00 PM PST by ConorMacNessa (HM/2 USN, 3/5 Marines RVN 1969 - St. Michael the Archangel defend us in Battle!)
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To: Zeneta
Does objective truth exist?

Yes.

But, a persuasive argument for objective truth can only be conducted subjectively.

And therein lies the tragedy of our age.

4 posted on 12/15/2012 8:29:47 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Flycatcher

Facts tell but stories sell.

wonder why things were written the way they were?


5 posted on 12/15/2012 8:34:29 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
Of course objective truth exists. Truth is a derivative of reality. Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. It really is that simple.
6 posted on 12/15/2012 8:34:43 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: hinckley buzzard

Thanks for your reply.

Did you watch the videos ?

The issue at hand, is why?


7 posted on 12/15/2012 8:37:06 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: hinckley buzzard

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.”

I rather like that.


8 posted on 12/15/2012 8:43:24 PM PST by JimSEA
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To: Zeneta
Facts tell but stories sell. wonder why things were written the way they were?

This may or may not surprise you, but the encumbrances of language forbid us to entertain the vanity of knowing truth objectively.

That was my point.

9 posted on 12/15/2012 8:50:37 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Where does logic come from?

can you point to it in any materialistic way?


10 posted on 12/15/2012 8:51:15 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta

1+1=2


11 posted on 12/15/2012 8:53:48 PM PST by Manic_Episode (Some days...it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps....)
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To: Zeneta

Ping for later


12 posted on 12/15/2012 8:56:23 PM PST by newheart (The greatest trick the left ever pulled was convincing the world it was not a religion.)
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To: Manic_Episode

Yes 1 plus 1 equals 2.

How is it even possible that we know this?

As Albert Einstein said:

The most incomprehensible thing about the world is that it is at all comprehensible.


13 posted on 12/15/2012 9:02:24 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
Yes 1 plus 1 equals 2.

Only if we agree what those numerical symbols mean. I'll play Devil's Advocate now. I have no idea what those artificial symbols mean. I don't understand your truth, because your language is inadequate. Worse still, I'm deaf.

Now try to get me to understand the objective truth of the beautiful dawn song of the crissal thrasher.

14 posted on 12/15/2012 9:16:57 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Flycatcher

I’ll play, but give me a moment to deal with something.


15 posted on 12/15/2012 9:20:23 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Flycatcher
"Yes...But, a persuasive argument for objective truth can only be conducted subjectively."

Actually, one of the most persuasive arguments is a simple analysis of the statement, "There is no objective truth."

The statement can not be true.

16 posted on 12/15/2012 9:20:45 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: ConorMacNessa

so I get this FR mail from:

“I see my hands”

Everything I touch
with tenderness, alas,
pricks like a bramble. ~ Issa

Ismh

I suspect he is a mohammedan.


17 posted on 12/15/2012 9:25:40 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Joe 6-pack
It's a logic trap, but the snare is forged in the plastic of language. (By the way, have you stopped beating your wife?)

It has all the weight of an empty tautology, but not its cleverness.

18 posted on 12/15/2012 9:30:22 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Zeneta

All Cretans Are Liars.


19 posted on 12/15/2012 9:33:25 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Flycatcher

How is logic a trap ?


20 posted on 12/15/2012 9:34:17 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
Very interesting.

It seems to me that atheist scientists research enough to find facts that seem to contradict the Biblical details of acts by a divine God, and then ease off on the research when it has validated their belief (or lack thereof).

Real scientists would continue the research and test for repeatable results or unforeseen variables.

Real scientists never stop testing their theories, even those that seem proved.

21 posted on 12/15/2012 9:43:05 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: Flycatcher
This may or may not surprise you, but the encumbrances of language forbid us to entertain the vanity of knowing truth objectively.

I agree, but using language we can understand, if not know.

All this is that.

22 posted on 12/15/2012 9:54:34 PM PST by expat1000
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To: Zeneta
It isn't.

The trap is language -- again! -- and how its constraints and limitations act as a barrier to the conveyance of truth.

Devil's Advocate: I'm also blind. The 49ers have red and gold uniforms. Please help me understand the objective truth of that color scheme.

23 posted on 12/15/2012 9:56:29 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Zeneta

Does 1 + 1 equal 2?

Then objective truth exists.

Try to live life apart from it and see how it works out.


24 posted on 12/15/2012 9:56:40 PM PST by lurk
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To: Navy Patriot

I can’t quote a single passage from the bible, yet I know it to be true.

I have come to this from my 20 years of asking questions.

It is not what I want to believe, it is the logical conclusion.


25 posted on 12/15/2012 9:56:56 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Flycatcher

Does your relativism know any bounds?


26 posted on 12/15/2012 10:00:23 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: lurk

Skip the light fandango:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJIVz9nYx7I


27 posted on 12/15/2012 10:04:57 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: expat1000
I agree, but using language we can understand, if not know.

I think you're on to something. Without language, of course, even basic communication from one to another is impossible. But the only thing standing in the way of pure understanding is language.

Ouch.

28 posted on 12/15/2012 10:06:39 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Flycatcher
Without language, of course, even basic communication from one to another is impossible. But the only thing standing in the way of pure understanding is language.

words are great.

Your circular attempt at reason is another thing all together.

29 posted on 12/15/2012 10:14:14 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
Again, this may surprise you, but I'm a Christian.

I believe we're not born automatically into grace (objective truth). I believe we have to seek objective truth (grace) on our own (subjectively).

And then it's incumbent upon us to accept it.

That was my point. Sometimes I digress, cuz it's fun.

30 posted on 12/15/2012 10:17:40 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Flycatcher

Fair enough.

I like to push the thoughts and beliefs of those I engage.

I’m an a**hole.


31 posted on 12/15/2012 10:22:05 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Flycatcher
But the only thing standing in the way of pure understanding is language.

This is as much to say as Truth is necessarily subjective, that is "felt". Objective and Subjective are modes of knowing, and the preminence of science has elevated the former over the latter, but the Greek sophists argued that the subjective is primary, and the objective secondary, that is constructed ... communicated ... external. Our entire personal reality is in fact subjective.

32 posted on 12/15/2012 10:26:28 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Zeneta
Lol.

Me too. And I've been called far worse than an a$&hole before.

Enjoyed your thread. All the best!

33 posted on 12/15/2012 10:27:37 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: dr_lew
Our entire personal reality is in fact subjective

really ?

How do you know this ?

34 posted on 12/15/2012 10:37:01 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
Our entire personal reality is in fact subjective

really ?

How do you know this ?

Do you know this objectively or subjectively ?

35 posted on 12/15/2012 10:41:51 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: dr_lew
Objective and Subjective are modes of knowing,

Well said.

36 posted on 12/15/2012 10:43:44 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Zeneta

Without God there is no objective truth.


37 posted on 12/15/2012 10:48:50 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Zeneta

Without God there is no objective truth.


38 posted on 12/15/2012 10:48:50 PM PST by onedoug
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To: Flycatcher

Dear Fly,

You are on the right track, however I would advise you to establish definitions for the words you use.

At the end of the day you need to own something.


39 posted on 12/15/2012 10:51:06 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: onedoug
Without God there is no objective truth.

Can't be said enough.

40 posted on 12/15/2012 10:53:42 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Zeneta
...it is the logical conclusion.

Yes, it is.

Imagine that you are given the goal of creating the complete works of William Shakespeare.

Using coincidence in chaos theory you get infinite monkeys pounding on infinite typewriters for infinite time and you will create those works.

Or you could use a Divine God of order creating and developing the family that would contain William Shakespeare.

The logic requires only one question:

In chaos where would you get monkeys and typewriters, let alone an infinite supply of them and time.

To suggest infinite time, the universe would have to last forever, and entropy suggests the opposite

41 posted on 12/15/2012 10:53:46 PM PST by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it, and the Constitution and law mean what WE say.)
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To: Flycatcher

“The 49ers have red and gold uniforms. Please help me understand the objective truth of that color scheme.”

Photons having wavelengths of 700 and 600 nanometers would be incident upon your blind eyeballs (even though you wouldn’t be able to detect them).


42 posted on 12/15/2012 10:55:55 PM PST by haroldeveryman
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To: Zeneta
Do you know this objectively or subjectively ?

First, subjectively, and second objectively :-)

But seriously, it makes sense, does it not? What else do we have to go on? And then when we analyze the mind objectively we conclude, yes, the mind has nothing else to go on.

43 posted on 12/15/2012 10:58:11 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: haroldeveryman

Colors are entirely subjective. If you make a short study of colorimetry, you will find that color standards are based on a standard SUBJECT, which is a statistical composite of experimental human SUBJECTs who report their experience of equivalent colors with variable spectral compostion.


44 posted on 12/15/2012 11:04:03 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Zeneta; onedoug
Without God there is no objective truth. Can't be said enough.

Would you two be gracious enough to let me wedge a word in there?

"Without accepting God, there is no objective truth.

45 posted on 12/15/2012 11:04:20 PM PST by Flycatcher (God speaks to us, through the supernal lightness of birds, in a special type of poetry.)
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To: Navy Patriot

I’m with you and more.

I find it very curious that modern day scientist invoke “Dark matter” and “Dark energy” to explain how we can even exist. Dark, of course means unknown.

Hey, that’s cool since we can incorporate some multiverse theory that provides an unprovable out.


46 posted on 12/15/2012 11:04:47 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: Flycatcher
But the only thing standing in the way of pure understanding is language.

I don't see it quite that way. Standing in the way - yes, there are schools of thought that feel that the intellect is a hinderance or worse to knowing the ultimate truth (or truths - depending on your belief) - I don't think so myself.

Pure understanding - what is it? I think really that is knowing or experiencing... which comes back to that being an non-intellectual, therefore non-language - experience.

47 posted on 12/15/2012 11:14:34 PM PST by expat1000
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To: Navy Patriot
Imagine that you are given the goal of creating the complete works of William Shakespeare.

I feel compelled to relate the old Stanley Myron Handelman bit on this subject. He reports that he had heard that a roomful of monkeys with typewriters would eventually accomplish this feat, so he decided to try, and put the monkeys in a room with typewriters. After a while he decided to see how they were doing, and looked in. To his chagrin, "... they weren't typing! They were just messing around in there!"

48 posted on 12/15/2012 11:15:48 PM PST by dr_lew
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To: Flycatcher
Without accepting God, there is no objective truth

I fundamentally disagree with the above statement.

Objective truth exists with or without God. That is what makes it objective.

I found God reluctantly, and had no choice in the matter.

A simple, well not so simple, result of logical conclusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y

49 posted on 12/15/2012 11:21:58 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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To: dr_lew

You need to gain a greater understanding math and probabilities.


50 posted on 12/15/2012 11:25:47 PM PST by Zeneta (Why are so many people searching for something that has already found us ?)
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