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The Trial of Bernhard Goetz
University of Missouri KC - Via RealClearHistory.com ^ | 12/22/2012 | Doug Linder (2011)

Posted on 12/22/2012 10:42:48 AM PST by Kid Shelleen

The Saturday afternoon before Christmas in 1984, on a New York City subway car making its run downtown, two black teenagers approached Bernhard Goetz. One of the teens said to the slightly built blond man, "Give me five dollars." Seconds later, Goetz fired five shots from his Smith & Wesson revolver and four young men were injured--one with a severed spinal cord. After the train came to a quick stop, Goetz jumped to the tracks below and disappeared into the darkness of the subway tunnel. City newspapers quickly dubbed the gunman "the subway vigilante." During the early 1980s, New York City experienced unprecedented rates of crime. Murders during the decade averaged almost 2,000 a year and, in the city's increasingly dangerous subway system, thirty-eight crimes a day, on average, were reported. Citizens did not feel safe. It is not surprising, therefore, when the city's newspapers ran stories on the December 22 shooting on the IRT express, the shooter was widely praised for his actions: "Finally," many a New Yorker said, "someone has had the courage to stand up to these thugs --SNIP-- Three years earlier, Goetz had been mugged by three African-American young men and he had a permanently damaged knee to show for it. He resolved not to be a victim again and regularly carried a .38 revolver in his waistband.

(Excerpt) Read more at law2.umkc.edu ...


TOPICS: History; Society
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*** Written in 2011 but just posted on http://www.realclearhistory.com/ ***
1 posted on 12/22/2012 10:42:56 AM PST by Kid Shelleen
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To: Kid Shelleen

I remember when this happened - I thought it was FIVE thugs who approcahed him.

And they asked if he had 5 dollars, and he said “yeah I’ve got 5 dollars for each of you”

At the time he was hailed as a hero to many, and the subways became a lot safer afterwards- not as a DIRECT result, but it certainly lit the spark

They were going to mug him, and he saved his own ass with A GUN~! (the horror)

One of the perps is permanently paralyzed so he has had a nice long time to think about that 5 dollars he wanted


2 posted on 12/22/2012 10:50:15 AM PST by Mr. K (There are lies, dammed lies, statistics, and democrap talking points.)
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To: Mr. K

more than 2 muggers, wikipedia says 4. I recall that several of the other yutes continued their life of crime and made headlines for doing so.


3 posted on 12/22/2012 10:54:47 AM PST by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: Mr. K
At the time he was hailed as a hero to many...

...and he remains so as far as I'm concerned. It's always praiseworthy when thugs get a dose of hot lead. Good guys being armed and taking decisive action against evildoers makes for a safe, happy and free society: "An armed society is a polite society."


4 posted on 12/22/2012 10:58:09 AM PST by re_nortex (DP...that's what I like about Texas.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

We have become inured to violence. When the government began to control our thought it seemed harmless or caused little reflection.. Since it was gradual and on going, it became almost unnoticed. The very idea ... ‘thought control.’ We are surrounded by it. Via the medias daily!

Are we to be willing robots essentially?

Wake up WORLD!


5 posted on 12/22/2012 11:00:09 AM PST by geologist (" If you love me, keep my commandments" John 14:15)
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To: Kid Shelleen
from wiki

Activities since the incident

In March 1985, soon after being released from the hospital for the treatment of his gunshot wound, James Ramseur falsely reported to police that two men hired by Goetz had kidnapped and attempted to kill him,[70] but was not charged in this hoax. In May 1985, Ramseur held the gun while an associate raped, sodomized and robbed a pregnant eighteen-year-old woman on the rooftop of the Bronx building where he lived, and in 1986 was sentenced to 8⅓ to 25 years in prison. According to the New York State Department of Corrections[71] inmate search site, Ramseur served his sentence and was released in July, 2010. Ramseur was found dead of a drug overdose, in an apparent suicide, in a Bronx, New York motel room on December 22, 2011, the 27th anniversary of the incident on the number 2 train.[72][73]

Barry Allen committed two robberies after the shooting, one of them a 1986 chain snatching in the elevator of the building where he lived.[58] The second arrest, in May, 1991, brought him a sentence of three and a half to seven years for probation violation and third degree robbery. He was released on parole in December, 1995.[71][74][75]

After a number of minor arrests for petty offenses, Canty was ordered to undergo an 18-month drug treatment program at a rehabilitation center, which he completed in 1989.[75][76] He was later charged with assault, robbery, and resisting arrest in an altercation with his common-law wife in August, 1996, but was not convicted and did not serve time.[77]

6 posted on 12/22/2012 11:00:26 AM PST by a fool in paradise (America 2013 - STUCK ON STUPID)
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To: Kid Shelleen

I applaud Goetz. He did what every person has a right to do: resist attackers with deadly force if necessary. This right in inherent in our nature and no government can take it away or bestow it upon us.


7 posted on 12/22/2012 11:08:24 AM PST by I want the USA back (The right to defend oneself is inherent in our nature. It can't be given or taken away by government)
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To: Kid Shelleen
IIRC, the only one NOT to be arrested after this, was the one in the wheelchair...
8 posted on 12/22/2012 11:08:59 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Kid Shelleen

If four black youts approached you in the subway and demanded money, this would be the ONLY way to defend yourself without risk losing everything, including wallet and credit cards, and probably getting beaten up or killed just as a little extra.

So, either he gave them everything, or he shot all of them on the spot before they could gang up on him.

Not much other choice. And if he’d hesitated, they’d have found the gun, and probably used it on him for practice.

I used to take the subway in those days, to get to work in the Village. There were muggers everywhere, before Rudy cleaned things up.

I remember one of my co-workers, who commuted from New Jersey, told me that he kept a $20 bill in his sock, at the bottom of his foot, so if he got mugged and lost his wallet and cash, he’d still have enough to get home with. We had this conversation after someone was robbed, shot, and killed on the sidewalk just outside the office.


9 posted on 12/22/2012 11:12:20 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Mr. K

And one raped and sodomized a woman on a rooftop.

I’ll never forget the black people in my office cheering Bernie the day after the attack. Then after people like crazy-man Jimmy Breslin et al went after him, the cheering stopped and Bernie became a pariah. Bad times in NYC.


10 posted on 12/22/2012 11:20:43 AM PST by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

The biggest mistake Goetz ever did was turn himself in. I remember that clear as day saying what a sucker, the liberals are going to crucify him and that’s exactly what they did. Jail time and a $43 million judgement against him.


11 posted on 12/22/2012 11:22:15 AM PST by GrandJediMasterYoda (Someday our schools we will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: Kid Shelleen

12 posted on 12/22/2012 11:41:32 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

They had his discription and knew who he was and were going to get him anyway. The biggest mistake he made was talking to the police without an attorney.


13 posted on 12/22/2012 11:45:16 AM PST by Patriot365
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To: JoeProBono
Well Bernhard Goetz has certainly aged. But the point is he has aged. His heroic actions so many years ago allowed him to pursue his God-given and Constitutionally-protected right to life! And to go gray... :-)
14 posted on 12/22/2012 11:48:50 AM PST by re_nortex (DP...that's what I like about Texas.)
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To: JoeProBono

Epic Beard Man

http://vimeo.com/9609349

[language/violence warning]


15 posted on 12/22/2012 11:49:56 AM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda
You may also recall that in the original trial, Goetz was acquitted of everything except carrying without a permit. The judge threw everything at him for that conviction but that was not nearly enough for the hyenas.
Then, in clear and brazen violation of Double Jeopardy, he was tried again and convicted.

Prior to the second trial, the DA floated the idea of trying him for civil rights violation against the wolf pack. I remember turning to my wife and wondering when it became a civil right to mug people.

Oh, and by the way, apropos of absolutely nothing, a plurality of the jury that acquitted him was black.

16 posted on 12/22/2012 11:51:23 AM PST by stormhill
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To: Kid Shelleen

I grew up in New York during the 1980’s, so I remember this very well. Bernie did what he had to do- if he didn’t, he would have become just another statistic. Of course, even back then I had some people calling me a “racist” for being a white guy with that opinion. My response was “If he shot four white criminals who were trying to mug him, I’d feel the same way”. And I would have.


17 posted on 12/22/2012 11:54:37 AM PST by richmwill
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To: Salamander

18 posted on 12/22/2012 12:01:54 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: JoeProBono

Heh.


19 posted on 12/22/2012 12:04:20 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Cicero

Back in the day, when I visited NYC from Connecticut, it was standard operating procedure to split the majority of your cash amongst your person - both socks, a couple of pockets, and $30 in your wallet - just enough to keep the thugs from getting angry at the lack of a good haul.


20 posted on 12/22/2012 12:16:34 PM PST by jttpwalsh
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To: Mr. K

I remember 4 but the statement you quoted sounds right to me.


21 posted on 12/22/2012 12:36:12 PM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: stormhill
Then, in clear and brazen violation of Double Jeopardy, he was tried again and convicted

There was never any double jeopardy. Goetz was tried once, and only once, by the State of New York on criminal charges. He was sued by Darrell Cabey, the thug he paralyzed, in civil court.

You may be confusing the fact that the grand jury added attempted murder charges to its original charges after hearing Goetz told the police he said "you don't look so bad, here's another" before taking a second shot at Cabey. That was done pre-trial.

It's also possible you're confusing the fact that the New York Court of Appeals overturned a pre-trial ruling by the criminal court judge, which made Goetz meet a higher burden in his justified use of deadly force defense.

However, there was no double jeopardy.

22 posted on 12/22/2012 1:01:04 PM PST by Scoutmaster (You knew the job was dangerous when you took it)
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To: jttpwalsh
My dog carries my money in his harness.


23 posted on 12/22/2012 1:02:32 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Salamander

I used to put a spare house key on my dobie’s collar.


24 posted on 12/22/2012 1:06:33 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: Duchess47

And nobody ever broke into your house...;D


25 posted on 12/22/2012 1:07:36 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Salamander

LOL - one day I left her inside, raining I think. Came home to a screen off, laying on the porch. Window was not open however. When I got inside, the blinds were a mess. I figure someone intended to break in and met her on the other side of the glass.


26 posted on 12/22/2012 1:13:15 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: Mr. K

It was not two muggers, it was four. I remember it well. I lived exactly one block away from him at the time, used to see him in the neighborhood often. The subways were a horror then, and remained so until Giuliani came in as mayor. The change was so huge, it was like night and day. He turned the city from a dump into something wonderful.
He took a stand against Arafat and Castro when they came here to the U.N. He would have made a terrific president, but he seemed too liberal for the Right. So look at what we have now.


27 posted on 12/22/2012 1:13:56 PM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Mr. K

It was not two muggers, it was four. I remember it well. I lived exactly one block away from him at the time, used to see him in the neighborhood often. The subways were a horror then, and remained so until Giuliani came in as mayor. The change was so huge, it was like night and day. He turned the city from a dump into something wonderful.
He took a stand against Arafat and Castro when they came here to the U.N. He would have made a terrific president, but he seemed too liberal for the Right. So look at what we have now.


28 posted on 12/22/2012 1:15:38 PM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Salamander

Smart Pup ;)


29 posted on 12/22/2012 1:23:13 PM PST by jttpwalsh
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To: Salamander

Gorgeous Dobie!!


30 posted on 12/22/2012 1:30:14 PM PST by Fast Moving Angel (A moral wrong is not a civil right: No religious sanction of an irreligious act.)
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To: Kid Shelleen
Perhaps Bernhard Goetz is related to Goetz von Berlichingen, the German knight who won fame for his bravery and defiance in the face of hopeless odds.
31 posted on 12/22/2012 1:38:30 PM PST by Fiji Hill (i)
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To: jttpwalsh

Yeah. It was important to give any muggers back then enough cash to buy drugs with for their next fix, or they’d get very angry with you for not carrying enough. Also, it was essential to give them the impression that they’d gotten everything of value that you had.


32 posted on 12/22/2012 1:44:22 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: stormhill
Oh, and by the way, apropos of absolutely nothing, a plurality of the jury that acquitted him was black.

Not surprising. They were probably sick and tired of being prey for the wolf packs, themselves.

33 posted on 12/22/2012 2:12:09 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: kabumpo
The whole Dinkins administration was a horror.
It is worth noting that leftists who would not think twice about abolishing the Second Amendment routinely criticized Giuliani for civil rights violations.
34 posted on 12/22/2012 3:07:42 PM PST by Kid Shelleen (Beat your plowshares into swords. Let the weak say I am strong)
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To: Kid Shelleen

You are right, the Dinkins administration was like a preview/warm-up for the Obama nightmare. And you are also right about the leftists who were always calling Giuliani a dictator. He should have been mayor of NYC for life.


35 posted on 12/22/2012 3:18:07 PM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Kid Shelleen

You are right, the Dinkins administration was like a preview/warm-up for the Obama nightmare. And you are also right about the leftists who were always calling Giuliani a dictator. He should have been mayor of NYC for life.


36 posted on 12/22/2012 3:18:15 PM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Scoutmaster
"You don’t look so bad, here’s another.”

For some reason I kind of like that quote.

37 posted on 12/22/2012 3:39:21 PM PST by boop ("You don’t look so bad, here’s another.”)
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To: boop

Let me fix that.


38 posted on 12/22/2012 3:41:04 PM PST by boop ("You don't look so bad, here's another")
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To: Duchess47

I’ve lost more mini blinds from people who tried to look in the window when nobody answered the door.

Imagine their surprise when the blind came crashing down to reveal what was ripping at it.

;)

Now that I’ve got a security camera recording all the time, I keep hoping for video of somebody.


39 posted on 12/22/2012 6:55:36 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Fast Moving Angel

Thanks....:)

(But he’s racist)


40 posted on 12/22/2012 6:58:54 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: boop

Some guy was bugging hubby in a bar parking lot and then took a swing at him..

Hubby’s best buddy started waling on him and got him down and was kicking him.

Hubby said don’t kick him when he’s down and the buddy replied WTF do you think I got him down for?

Made perfect sene to me.

Bikers.

I love ‘em.

;)


41 posted on 12/22/2012 7:05:44 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Salamander

Great dialogue. Worthy of Elmore Leonard.


42 posted on 12/22/2012 7:17:29 PM PST by firebrand
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To: Salamander
Hehe. He must have been the one they had in mind when the old joke was written:

Q: What's black and brown and looks good on a [insert ethnic group or name of ahole of your choice here]?

A: A Doberman.

Not that I've ever told such jokes, you understand ... :-)

43 posted on 12/22/2012 7:20:29 PM PST by Fast Moving Angel (A moral wrong is not a civil right: No religious sanction of an irreligious act.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

I was riding the subway one time and a kid across from me took out a box cutter and showed it to me with a vicious look in his eye.

Imagine his surprise when we got to the next station and instead of jumping off the train in a panic I started looking around the platform for a cop. Then I sat down to wait for the next station, hoping for better luck.

I couldn’t believe how fast the worm turned. He was the one scared now. Little punk.

The subways were truly dangerous. So much so that people would not get on an empty car or a nearly empty car.


44 posted on 12/22/2012 7:23:33 PM PST by firebrand
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To: firebrand

;)


45 posted on 12/22/2012 7:34:15 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Fast Moving Angel; Salamander

LOL. Good dogs.


46 posted on 12/22/2012 7:34:40 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: Fast Moving Angel

I’ve owned many Dobes and known many more.

Never knew one who wasn’t ‘racist’.

(And they’re despised and feared by the ones they hate so it all works out in the end, I reckon)


47 posted on 12/22/2012 7:38:41 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Duchess47

I’ve had bangers *pick up* their ‘killer Pits’ and run away still carrying them when they see him.

It’s like an ingrained phobia or something.

Weird.


48 posted on 12/22/2012 7:42:32 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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To: Salamander

Must be, they stayed away from my house.


49 posted on 12/22/2012 8:10:38 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: Duchess47

“Debbil Dawgs”.

;]


50 posted on 12/22/2012 8:14:25 PM PST by Salamander (If animals could speak, mankind would weep.)
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