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Does federal law allows CCW on school property?
http://cjonline.com/legislature/2011-05-14/concealed-gun-law-perplexes-lawmakers ^

Posted on 12/23/2012 6:51:33 AM PST by meatloaf

"She said the 2010 conceal-and-carry reform bill contained a provision stipulating federal law banning guns in school zones would supersede Kansas law. She wasn't aware Congress had adopted a school zone exemption to people possessing a valid state conceal-and-carry permit."


TOPICS: Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; ccw; guncontrol; schools; secondamendment; security; sourcetitlenoturl
While gun control has pervaded the lame stream media since Sandy Hook, schools in Utah, Indiana, Kansas and some in Texas allow CCW on the premise. In one article it appears that federal law also allow CCW on school property.

Can anyone confirm this.

1 posted on 12/23/2012 6:51:41 AM PST by meatloaf
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To: meatloaf

Seems to me that the 2nd amendment does.


2 posted on 12/23/2012 6:53:29 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: meatloaf

Guns are not allowed in federal buildings like Post Offices, court buildings, FAA and such. Schools are not federal buildings. Aren’t they controlled by the states and as such state law would apply?


3 posted on 12/23/2012 7:00:17 AM PST by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: cripplecreek; meatloaf

I certainly can think of no provision in the constitution giving the Congress the power to pass a law to forbid carrying a fire arm on public school property.

If the Constitution does not give the congress the power to pass such a law then the law can not be enforceable.

Pity the world doesn’t really work that way isn’t it.


4 posted on 12/23/2012 7:04:29 AM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: cripplecreek

I don’t think the legislator was referring to the second amendment. I could be wrong about that. Maybe a clause in the act that created the gun free school zones has an exception in it.

If so that opens up another option to prevent more tragedies like Sandy Hook. Simply allow teachers CCW. That’s currently legal in Indiana, Utah, Kansas and in Texas. I’m seeing people balk at the cost of the NRA proposal. Allowing CCW in schools defeats the cost objection liberals may use and out maneuvers liberals.

Imagine liberal heads exploding across the country when CCW is mentioned. Imagine Piers Morgan making an ass of himself again. We need to start the drum beat of self defense as an inalienable right.


5 posted on 12/23/2012 7:06:31 AM PST by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: meatloaf

All this talk about CCW, sounds great, but does anyone ever mention the Liability factor? I see a guy running into school with a AK 47, and he starts to fire, I whip out my Glock and start shooting at him. Say I fire 12 rounds, 3 of them hit him and two ricochet into innocent by standers. Who gets sued by the bystanders, who provides for my defense in court? What part of my Homeowners Liability Insurance covers me? All of a sudden I have 3 lawyers after me, 2 from the bystanders and surely one from the Perp. Gotta love it.


6 posted on 12/23/2012 7:09:25 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft (Who we elect is not as important as who they bring in with them.)
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To: mountainlion

The article from Kansas mentions their law had a provision that federal law would override state law. Later, they were surprised that it appears that federal law allows CCW in schools.

Freepers are great at digging out the facts. This could be another front to open in the gun control argument.


7 posted on 12/23/2012 7:11:04 AM PST by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: Bringbackthedraft

PS, add another lawyer for the family of the Perp if I managed to make him room temperature.


8 posted on 12/23/2012 7:11:35 AM PST by Bringbackthedraft (Who we elect is not as important as who they bring in with them.)
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To: Bringbackthedraft

That’s something everyone with a CCW has to consider whereever they are. Schools are no different. The CCW holder at the Clackmas Mall faced that exact situation and decided not to shoot. The shooter, apparently seeing the CCW’s handgun, then committed suicide.


9 posted on 12/23/2012 7:14:31 AM PST by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: Bringbackthedraft

Atuallyk there are some honeowners’ policies that do provide coverage in caes like that. Hitting the two bystanders would probably be viewed as an accident and covered if the intial shooting was legal. For example, yoiu shoot at a burglar in your house anda bullet passses through the wall striking a pedestrian.


10 posted on 12/23/2012 7:16:46 AM PST by libstripper
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To: meatloaf

It is focused on the students not being able to have firearms, it requires a state receiving state funds to have a law mandating expulsion for violation (modifiable in writing on a case by case basis, and an agency receiving fed funds to be in compliance with same and a reporting requirement for incidents. I don’t see anything about the teachers, administrators or the parents for that matter.

(a) Short title
This subpart may be cited as the “Gun-Free Schools Act”.
(b) Requirements
(1) In general
Each State receiving Federal funds under any subchapter of this chapter shall have in effect a State law requiring local educational agencies to expel from school for a period of not less than 1 year a student who is determined to have brought a firearm to a school, or to have possessed a firearm at a school, under the jurisdiction of local educational agencies in that State, except that such State law shall allow the chief administering officer of a local educational agency to modify such expulsion requirement for a student on a case-by-case basis if such modification is in writing.
(2) Construction
Nothing in this subpart shall be construed to prevent a State from allowing a local educational agency that has expelled a student from such a student’s regular school setting from providing educational services to such student in an alternative setting.
(3) Definition
For the purpose of this section, the term “firearm” has the same meaning given such term in section 921 (a) of title 18.
(c) Special rule
The provisions of this section shall be construed in a manner consistent with the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act [20 U.S.C. 1400 et seq.].
(d) Report to State
Each local educational agency requesting assistance from the State educational agency that is to be provided from funds made available to the State under any subchapter of this chapter shall provide to the State, in the application requesting such assistance—
(1) an assurance that such local educational agency is in compliance with the State law required by subsection (b) of this section; and
(2) a description of the circumstances surrounding any expulsions imposed under the State law required by subsection (b) of this section, including—
(A) the name of the school concerned;
(B) the number of students expelled from such school; and
(C) the type of firearms concerned.
(e) Reporting
Each State shall report the information described in subsection (d) of this section to the Secretary on an annual basis.
(f) Definition
For the purpose of subsection (d) of this section, the term “school” means any setting that is under the control and supervision of the local educational agency for the purpose of student activities approved and authorized by the local educational agency.
(g) Exception
Nothing in this section shall apply to a firearm that is lawfully stored inside a locked vehicle on school property, or if it is for activities approved and authorized by the local educational agency and the local educational agency adopts appropriate safeguards to ensure student safety.
(h) Policy regarding criminal justice system referral
(1) In general
No funds shall be made available under any subchapter of this chapter to any local educational agency unless such agency has a policy requiring referral to the criminal justice or juvenile delinquency system of any student who brings a firearm or weapon to a school served by such agency.
(2) Definition
For the purpose of this subsection, the term “school” has the same meaning given to such term by section 921 (a) of title 18.


11 posted on 12/23/2012 7:20:09 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: meatloaf

After the Texas tower shooting, there was a Fed law banning guns from school campuses, IIRC. That was more than 40 years ago, do not know if any of it is still in force today.


12 posted on 12/23/2012 7:23:53 AM PST by wrench
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To: yldstrk

In the early 80s we high school kids could bring our guns to school for afternoon hunting. They had to stay locked in our vehicles if we drove or in the principal’s office if a parent bought us.

As far as I can tell there has never been a shooting in the entire history of my old school (or any of the other couple dozen schools in the county)


13 posted on 12/23/2012 7:25:56 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: yldstrk

There’s the exception that allows school boards to approve CCW in schools like Texas and other states.

“(g) Exception
Nothing in this section shall apply to a firearm that is lawfully stored inside a locked vehicle on school property, or if it is for activities approved and authorized by the local educational agency and the local educational agency adopts appropriate safeguards to ensure student safety.”


14 posted on 12/23/2012 7:29:46 AM PST by meatloaf (Support Senate S 1863 & House Bill 1380 to eliminate oil slavery.)
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To: cripplecreek

my kid thought he and his buds were shooting in the country—it was a well known spot where kids would go to shoot, covered with brass and nothing around, but the po-po decided they were within the incorporated area of the county, took their guns and charged them with unlawful discharge or some such and now he has a “gun violation” that throws up red flags.


15 posted on 12/23/2012 7:35:27 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: meatloaf

Love it-—the schools should have their own gun safety and target shooting classes.


16 posted on 12/23/2012 7:36:49 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: meatloaf

USC › Title 20 › Chapter 70 › Subchapter IV › Part A › Subpart 3 › § 7151

20 USC § 7151


17 posted on 12/23/2012 7:37:27 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: meatloaf
While gun control has pervaded the lame stream media since Sandy Hook, schools in Utah, Indiana, Kansas and some in Texas allow CCW on the premise. In one article it appears that federal law also allow CCW on school property. Can anyone confirm this.

Don't have a clue - but the Constitution and the Amendments are the law of the land - any law the Feds make restricting our enjoying the fruits of the Freedoms laid out in these documents is an un-Constitutional/illegal law. The problem is that we have meekly acceded to these illegal laws for decades and turning the trend around is an uphill battle.

18 posted on 12/23/2012 7:42:07 AM PST by trebb (Allies no longer trust us. Enemies no longer fear us.)
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To: meatloaf

From my CHL class, I was told that it’s okay to pick up your kid at school while armed, as long as the weapon does not leave your vehicle. I’m pretty sure teachers can be armed if they have a CHL and permission from the school administration.


19 posted on 12/23/2012 7:42:34 AM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Bringbackthedraft

“All this talk about CCW, sounds great, but does anyone ever mention the Liability factor?”

Easy to solve. The county sheriff could just deputize school employees who were CCW holders. They would also want to offer some additional training and provide rules of engagement.


20 posted on 12/23/2012 7:45:54 AM PST by babygene ( .)
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To: meatloaf

Many of the ISDs in Texas have their own police departments.

From the following:
This is a small isolated district.
*****
“These people that go in and do these horrible acts, they’re evil. But they’re not that crazy — they always know where they are going to get resistance,” Thweatt said.

Teachers and administrators here carry concealed handguns. They won’t say how many faculty members are armed. They get extra training, but the district would not give us details.

Some people are horrified when he starts talking about putting guns in schools with children, but Thweatt said it’s important to be safe.

“Sure, but it’s a pretty horrific thing that happened the other day.” Thweatt said. “And quite a few people are not horrified. Quite a few people we have in our district, since we have a high-transfer district, people bring their students to us for that protection.”

Texas law allows concealed weapons in schools with a district’s permission. Harrold was the first district to do it. A similar proposal was vetoed by Michigan’s governor Tuesday.

Thweatt says allowing the firearms into the school will dissuade anyone who wants to hurt the kids.

“That’s the bottom line,” he said.

******

http://www.wltx.com/news/national/article/213252/142/Texas-School-District-Teachers-Carry-Concealed-Guns


21 posted on 12/23/2012 7:53:20 AM PST by deport
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To: yldstrk

I grew up in true rural country. There was a clear difference between town and country. Just take a look at Hanover Michigan on a map and look up Hanover-Horton schools in the aerial photos. There’s no mistaking it there.

A lot of FReepers have an odd idea of what is rual in my opinion. To me, Littleton Colorado and Newtown Conn are urban.


22 posted on 12/23/2012 7:53:40 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: meatloaf
Here is a google search link giving some of the Texas ISDs that have police departments.

Texas ISDs with Police Departments


23 posted on 12/23/2012 7:57:45 AM PST by deport
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To: smokingfrog

So many gotchas that let the fed law skew the Texas law that I just try and steer clear of all things “school” .... Now that said the key IMHO to carry near or at a school is the definition of premises in the Texas state CHL law.

I can pull up to drop off my student, exit that vehicle armed with my CHL rig and walk up to the door of the school and allow my student to enter. But if I cross the transom of that door I have entered the premises versus just the property.

I am also not allowed to attend any sporting events outside .

Talking to ATF agents in the performance of my job they said state law and federal law does conflict. They know it and the state knows it. The ATF can arrest you for following Texas law. The 1000 foot, gun free BS still trumps Texas law last I worked as a reserve deputy a few years ago.

I live just 2 blocks from a school and was told by one ATF idiot that he as an agent could snag me for walking out of my dwelling to my vehicle in the driveway and leave ....”officially” by the letter of said federal law be in violation.

Gun law enforcement is so friggin messed up and compounded with different levels of city, county, state and federal amendments and such that one law abiding well meaning armed individual can be branded a felon at multiple levels on any given day.

Just my experience and experience as a Texan that is armed 24/7 when out and about. Just trying to follow laws that CAN NOT be followed or understood leaving me subject to the interpretation of the FLEA/LEO that stops me going to or from my home carrying my state issued CHL .

Stay Safe ...


24 posted on 12/23/2012 8:10:18 AM PST by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: meatloaf

VA allows ANYONE who is ‘eligible’ to carry in a vehicle, CCW or not.

VA
(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, “weapon” includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and “closed container” includes a locked vehicle trunk
= = = =

Some of VA laws are ‘decent’ but somewhat cloudy.
I, as a permit holder, interpret this as saying if I am on School Property and leave my weapon secured in my vehicle it is ‘ok’.
(However when at a ball game etc I sometimes ‘forget’ to leave in vehicle...I personally believe it is ‘safer’ on my person as my vehicle is not always in sight...)

As to ‘vagueness’ this is for Church or Place of Worship

§ 18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.
If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.


25 posted on 12/23/2012 8:16:28 AM PST by xrmusn (6/98 "It is virtually impossible to clean the pond as long as the pigs are still crapping in it")
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To: mountainlion

***Guns are not allowed in federal buildings like Post Offices,***

I’m sure that if the post office in Edmonton Ok had had “NO GUNS” stickers on the doors the gunman would have said...”Well S#!t” and went elsewhere.


26 posted on 12/23/2012 8:22:10 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (REOPEN THE CLOSED MENTAL INSTITUTIONS! Damn the ACLU!)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
I’m sure that if the post office in Edmonton Ok had had “NO GUNS” stickers on the doors the gunman would have said...”Well S#!t” and went elsewhere.

Just like these guys -- as perceived by liberals. :-)


27 posted on 12/23/2012 8:53:50 AM PST by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I think all Post Offices do have posters or signs saying no guns. That is the point. Gun laws do not work and the US Government will not enforce gun laws against their own ATF when they get caught.


28 posted on 12/23/2012 9:21:52 AM PST by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: meatloaf
Does federal law allows CCW on school property?

Federal law exempts CCW holders from the Federal Gun Free School Zones act.

It is then up to the individual states to decide if they will allow concealed or open carry on their school grounds.

After all of the flak over Michigan's proposed concealed carry on school grounds law was unceremoniously vetoed by Governor Snyder, this left existing law in effect.

In Michigan, if you are a CPL holder you may legally open carry on school grounds, and has been thus for many years. You cannot conceal carry on school grounds, however.

29 posted on 12/23/2012 9:29:22 AM PST by Yo-Yo (Is the /sarc tag really necessary?)
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To: Pontiac

The Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 was originally passed as section 1702 of the Crime Control Act of 1990. It added 18 U.S.C. § 922(q); 18 U.S.C. § 922 itself was added by the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968.

The Supreme Court of the United States subsequently held that the Act was an unconstitutional exercise of Congressional authority under the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution in United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S. 549 (1995). This was the first time in over half a century that the Supreme Court limited Congressional authority to legislate under the Commerce Clause.

Following the Lopez decision, President Clinton’s Attoney General Janet Reno proposed changes to 18 U.S.C. § 922(q) that were adopted (or “concealed” and “widely ignored” as one author put it) in section 657 of the Omnibus Consolidated Appropriations Act of 1997, Pub.L. 104-208, 110 Stat. 3009, enacted September 30, 1996.[5] These minor changes required that the firearm in question “has moved in or otherwise affects interstate commerce”.[6]

As nearly all firearms have moved in Interstate Commerce at some point in their lives, critics assert this was merely a legislative tactic to circumvent the Supreme Court’s ruling.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990


30 posted on 12/23/2012 9:44:02 AM PST by rolling_stone
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To: cripplecreek

We did the same thing here in Georgia during the early 80’s. I walked to school and would often carry my rifle and throw it in a buddies truck in the school parking lot before going to class. No one thought a thing of it.


31 posted on 12/23/2012 10:41:05 AM PST by crusadersoldier
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To: crusadersoldier

One of my friends was one of the local rich kids. I remember standing in the principals office while he was showing the principal and a couple of teachers the beautiful .44 magnum revolver he had gotten for his birthday.

We were pretty tight with the vice principal anyway because he worked as a farm hand with us during the summer.


32 posted on 12/23/2012 10:54:34 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Oatka

Years ago MAD magazine did a spoof on the movie BONNIE AND CLYDE, and how B & C would do it in foreign nations.

In Germany, they would have seen a sign on the door saying it was illegal to rob a bank, and would go elsewhere.


33 posted on 12/23/2012 11:19:38 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (REOPEN THE CLOSED MENTAL INSTITUTIONS! Damn the ACLU!)
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To: rolling_stone
As nearly all firearms have moved in Interstate Commerce at some point in their lives, critics assert this was merely a legislative tactic to circumvent the Supreme Court’s ruling.

Not necessarily with the advent of 3-D printers.

Now you could print a gun in you home town and carry it to school and the gun would never cross state lines.

Take that Janet!

34 posted on 12/23/2012 12:15:12 PM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: yldstrk
In Ohio your son could petition the governor to have his record expunged for something minor like that so that he could get his 2nd Amendment rights back.

You might look in to it.

35 posted on 12/23/2012 12:35:38 PM PST by Pontiac (The welfare state must fail because it is contrary to human nature and diminishes the human spirit.)
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To: Squantos

If things keep going the way they are, people are just going to say the hell with it - I’ll do as I please and risk the consequences. They don’t have enough jails for all of us.


36 posted on 12/23/2012 4:51:02 PM PST by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Pontiac

I will check into it, thanks


37 posted on 12/23/2012 5:38:15 PM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: smokingfrog

Agree 100% ..... Same thoughts.

Stay safe .... Merry Christmas Sir !


38 posted on 12/23/2012 8:36:41 PM PST by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: meatloaf

I’m seeing people balk at the cost of the NRA proposal.
*********************************************************

Cost?????????? That can easily be covered by taking the money spent on the security for politicians and instead spending it on protecting the children.

Start with Diane Fienstein, and the other Libs/gungrabbers - let them be in a gun free zone, since they think that is the solution to gun violence. Let them prove it.


39 posted on 12/23/2012 8:56:03 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: Bringbackthedraft

Number one: just don’t miss.

Number 2: use ammo that stays in the body instead of going straight through.


40 posted on 12/23/2012 8:57:31 PM PST by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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To: meatloaf

End the deadly gun free zone loophole.


41 posted on 12/23/2012 9:13:17 PM PST by School of Rational Thought (Fun for women ages 21 through 35)
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