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British troops retiring their Hi-Powers, getting Glocks
guns.com ^ | 1/09/13 | Max Slowik

Posted on 01/11/2013 2:47:11 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper

British troops serving in Afghanistan will soon be issued a new sidearm, the Glock 17. The Glocks will replace the L9A1s—Browning Hi-Powers with an ambidextrous safety—in service that have been standard-issue for about 50 years.

The decision follows more than two years of evaluating the Glock for service, and calls for 25,000 Glock 17s to fill the £8.5 ($13.6) million contract. Some troops have been issued SIG P226 pistols to replace their aging Hi-Powers as a stop-gap measure, but it’s the Austrian pistol that has won the hearts and minds at the British Ministry of Defense.

(Excerpt) Read more at guns.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist
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1 posted on 01/11/2013 2:47:18 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Berlin_Freeper


2 posted on 01/11/2013 2:52:12 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Mater tua caligas exercitus gerit ;-{)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

I have a Browning Hi Power II Digital Camo....I absolutely love that little gun.....only thing is that it’s 9mm but an extremely well-built weapon.


3 posted on 01/11/2013 2:52:26 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: Berlin_Freeper

So, Bond is going to have to go ‘plastic’, now, eh?

I have a MKII Belgian Browning, and a digicamo MKIII.

The late Browning Hi Power ‘guru’, former Texas law agency officer Stephen A. Camp said that the Hi Power was one of the best pistols in the world. It was his duty piece for many years, before he retired. his website still exists, “Hipowerandhandguns”.

The Canadians manufactured Hi Powers during WW2, under the ‘Inglis’ name, during a time when the Nazis overran Belgium, and took over the manufacturing plant.

Whether these pistols are ‘only’ 9mm or not, they are the last works/design that the venerable John Moses Browning was working on, at the time of his death. They are accurate enough and fit the hand well enough, for me.


4 posted on 01/11/2013 3:34:29 AM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Glocks rock.


5 posted on 01/11/2013 3:55:04 AM PST by RC one (.From My Cold Dead Hands.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

The Glock is a good weapon for people who do not train with weapons regularly. The P35 is a SUPERB weapon for people who know how to use it. The 9mm caliber is vastly inferior to the 45 ACP, but IS adaquate. Also, the military has always had the heebie-jeebies about “cocked and locked” (as John Moses Browning INTENDED). I have clear memories of junior officers pawing at my M9 in my issue shoulder holster trying to place MY safety on “safe” (empty weapon secured in MY issue rig - yes the M9 is a SA/DA weapon - different entirely from the P35, but 100% safe carried with one in the chamber, safety off, ready to fire in the DA mode). I often asked the commissioned junior officers if they routinely snatched empty M16s (on which the safety CANNOT be placed on “safe” with the hammer down with an empty [or loaded] chamber). I got the deer in the headlights look, followed by a condescending bunch of commissioned BS. As a 1SG, I’d laugh and return my weapon to the condition that I wanted it in and carry on about my business. Point is - just like at Fort Hood, the politically correct BS is the driving thing. I love the Hi-Power. The Glock? A servicable, somewhat non-durable plastic pistol for non-shooters.


6 posted on 01/11/2013 4:10:14 AM PST by Nathaniel (- A Man Without A Cross -)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
Translation: Our supply of L9A1 9mm Browning HiPowers are insufficient, we don’t want to buy more from the Belgians (that are assembled in Portugal), so we go with Glocks made in Austria. [It should be noted that the UK does very little small arms manufacture of its own any more. That has been outsourced to “freer” nations.]
7 posted on 01/11/2013 4:13:06 AM PST by MasterGunner01
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To: Nathaniel
Agree with you:

Glock; plastic frame, stamped parts, welded slide - a nonpermanent, disposable weapon.

Browning P35; All milled steel quality, robust design, absolute reliability, designed to last centuries.

Never settle for cheap stuff when your life depends on it.

8 posted on 01/11/2013 4:16:19 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Terry L Smith
Bond went plastic in 2006 when he used the Walther P99 in Casino Royale.
9 posted on 01/11/2013 4:20:50 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2012)
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To: Chainmail

I have own both for decades brought my first Hi power in the 70’s owned Glock from the time they were first imported.

Shot many thounsands of rounds through each. The browning is a good pistol. But the Glock will out last the browning for many reasons.


10 posted on 01/11/2013 4:24:39 AM PST by riverrunner
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To: Berlin_Freeper

The US Marines went the right way.


11 posted on 01/11/2013 4:25:20 AM PST by bmwcyle (We have gone over the cliff and we are about to hit the bottom)
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To: Berlin_Freeper
hickok45 likes Glock.
12 posted on 01/11/2013 4:35:11 AM PST by real saxophonist (I show my friends my 1911. I show my enemies my Glock.)
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To: Nathaniel; Chainmail; riverrunner; real saxophonist; Berlin_Freeper
I have to respectfully disagree. The Glock purchase makes a lot of sense, and not just from a financial perspective. The Glock is a good pistol, and for both shooters and non-shooters (to use the dichotomy brought up by Nathaniel). And, to be very honest, I'd say the average soldier - when it comes to pistols - is a non-shooter. Most of the shooting is focused on his main weapon, which for virtually every soldier (apart from tank crews, who in some nations carry personal defense weapons ranging from MP-5s to FN P90s) is a rifle of some sort. Most of the firearms training is rifle based, with not that much time spent on pistols (compared to rifles) for most 'ordinary' soldiers. Thus, if the Glock is the perfect handgun for the 'non-shooter,' then it is perfect for the British troops when it comes to handguns.

It is somewhat similar to unarmed combat training. Most soldiers will not spent most of their time in hand to hand combat, and thus the training is not necessarily the best available. It is just the best available for someone not expected to spend most of their time in H2H combat. Thus, the perfect style for the non-H2H combatant. Hence the likes of MCMAP for the US Marines, and the basic levels of Krav Maga for normal Israeli infantry. Special operations forces definitely get better H2H training (e.g. DEVGRU and CAG do get instructors who teach some rather interesting things ranging from Apache knife fighting, Sayoc Kali, and some rather eclectic stuff like P.F.S and S.P.E.A.R; while the Israelis teach harder types of Krav Maga and KAPAP) ...but still ...these guys will spend most of their time practicing on their main weapons.

For the average soldier (read: not part of special operations) the time spent working on their side arm is less than that done by the average police officer, and the Glock is absolutely perfect for the average soldier. A member of DEVGRU or Sayeret can make a case for a different handgun, but the average soldier ...not really (apart from personal taste). The average soldier is a 'non-shooter' when it comes to handguns as compared to i) the amount of time spent on the handgun vs the primary weapon, and ii) compared to even civilian shooters who have decided to put serious time into handgun practice. Consequently, if the Glock is the perfect gun for a non-shooter, the British chose wisely.

13 posted on 01/11/2013 4:50:14 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: real saxophonist
Glock 1000 Round Torture Test Part 1

Glock 1000 Round Torture Test Part 2

14 posted on 01/11/2013 4:54:41 AM PST by real saxophonist (I show my friends my 1911. I show my enemies my Glock.)
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To: riverrunner

If there is a bigger fan of the Hi-Power than me I’ve yet to find them. I’ve got a couple of dozen with all but two being made pre 1983. Calibers range from 40, 357 Sig, 9mm and 7.65x21. Now before anybody says Browning didn’t make one in 357 Sig which is true, this one started life as a 40 and was converted. NOVAK! I sure would like to pick a few of these up.


15 posted on 01/11/2013 4:55:27 AM PST by Dusty Road
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To: spetznaz

Thats all nice but why does that make a Browning better then a Glock.

What I see is a lot of reasons to chose a Glock over a Browning.


16 posted on 01/11/2013 5:49:35 AM PST by riverrunner
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To: Dusty Road
Chuck Taylor, owner of the Cottontail Lounge in Urbandale, IA., carried a Hi-Power everyday his little diner and bar was open for business. He always said he hoped he'd never have to pull it and he never did where a customer was involved.
So it was a surprise a week before Christmas, just at closing time when Chuck spotted a young man approaching the front door while rolling down a ski mask over his face.
Chuck said he quickly exited out the kitchen back door and came around to the front of the building, hammer back, to confront the holdup man.
Mr. Skimask was startled to see Chuck in his waiter's apron, pointing the Hi-Power in his direction. At about the same time, Chuck spotted the .38 snubby and hesitating a half second, let lose with two rounds into the front door of the Cottontail. Mr. Skimask dropped his revolver and ran toward an older Impala, idling nearby. The Impala made for a better target and received the remainder from the 9 MM magazine, in the trunk, back window and driver's door.
A passing Urbandale cop happened on to the crime scene moments later and made the arrest of the erstwhile holdup man who was removed from the car, whimpering.
The next day, an Urbandale detective invited Chuck down to the police range for a tune-up session for the Hi-Power...
17 posted on 01/11/2013 5:52:32 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (In the game of life, there are no betting limits)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

There is only one handgun in my book, M1911 .45 ACP. everything else is second rate.


18 posted on 01/11/2013 6:08:00 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Dusty Road

I sure hope we see them on the surplus market!


19 posted on 01/11/2013 6:09:13 AM PST by Elderberry
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To: spetznaz

With the growing green on blue attacks, soldiers will need more training with sidearms.


20 posted on 01/11/2013 6:10:46 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Nathaniel; Chainmail
A servicable, somewhat non-durable plastic pistol for non-shooters.

Try this with your Model T HiPower and let us know how it works out. http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90
21 posted on 01/11/2013 6:19:02 AM PST by 762X51
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To: riverrunner

That was my point - that the Glock was a great choice by the Brits.


22 posted on 01/11/2013 6:30:12 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: Elderberry
I sure hope we see them on the surplus market!

Based on the ones I saw in the field about 10 years ago, I would probably pass. They are in very rough shape, and some units have been cannibalizing older pistols to make decently working ones. They really did need to get new sidearms - the Hi Power is great but some of the ones I saw had first been issued in the late 1940s and looked like they had been beaten badly since then.

23 posted on 01/11/2013 7:02:15 AM PST by AzSteven ("War is less costly than servitude, the choice is always between Verdun and Dachau." Jean Dutourd)
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To: spetznaz
Agree with many of your points but you are missing one important element: the combat environment. We never fight wars in vacation paradises (Grenada being the exception) and it's either wet and hot or dusty and hot, or North Korea cold. The Glock is a civilian pistol, made for light duty or desk drawers. The Browning, like its grandfather, the 1911 is made for the severest environments and the toughest duty. I had a radio operator in Vietnam who never cleaned his .45 and told everybody that he'd never fire a round during his whole tour just to prove a point. Ir was covered in scale rust and nasty looking but when a VC came running out of a house straight at our company commander, our radio operater drew and shot his .45 and nailed the bastard. It worked fine, despite all of his abuse.

It is true that you use a pistol in the same circumstances that you'd use a knife but there is no excuse for carrying flimsy item just because it isn't used often or it's cheaper to buy.

As a Vietnam Vet, I'm sick of risking our lives on "least bidder" weapons. If the Brits have to go back to the Falklands, they'd better keep a few Brownings available, just in case.

24 posted on 01/11/2013 7:33:45 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

They should have went .45acp.

Sure a 9mm works, the .45 works better.


25 posted on 01/11/2013 7:35:36 AM PST by Eye of Unk (AR2 2013 is the American Revolution part 2 of 2013)
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To: 762X51
A very impressive test. I believe that my Browning HPs would most likely survive that test but mine are too dang valuable to risk. Nonetheless, the Inglis HiPowers that were carried in Malaysia, Korea, the Suez, Iraq and Afghanistan did fine, didn't they?

Agree wholeheartedly with your caliber tag: if you can't nail it with a 7.62 NATO, you shouldn't be in this man's gun club.

26 posted on 01/11/2013 7:46:32 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

Dear British Government...Please send your old Browning Hi-Power to ME!

I promise (wink wink) to sell them as scrap to those interested.

PS Please include the 12 round magazines with them.


27 posted on 01/11/2013 9:03:02 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name! See new paintings!)
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To: Chainmail

I’ve had my Glock for 26 years, and my understanding has always been that it is tougher and more durable than the other pistols, not the weaker, drawer-gun that you guys are trying to claim.

Most writing that I saw when the US went to 9mm, was that the rules that kept out Glock, kept out the best, toughest, pistol.


28 posted on 01/11/2013 9:26:35 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: bmwcyle
The US Marines went the right way.

I'm pretty sure the Marines still use the 9mm, a lot of people got confused because their Special Ops troops adopted the 45.

29 posted on 01/11/2013 9:29:33 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: ansel12
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/
30 posted on 01/11/2013 9:40:01 AM PST by bmwcyle (We have gone over the cliff and we are about to hit the bottom)
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To: bmwcyle

August 24, 2012: The U.S. Marine Corps has ordered 12,000 .45 (11.4mm) caliber pistols (for $1,900 each), mainly for use by its SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and recon troops. These MARSOC (Marine Special Operations Command) troops have, like the army, navy, and air force components of SOCOM, quietly replaced most of their 9mm pistols with .45s. For the last few years the marines have been supplying their special operations troops with older M1911 model .45s, refurbished (or built from scrounged up parts) in a marine-run facility.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20120824.aspx


31 posted on 01/11/2013 9:52:55 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: 762X51
Try this with your Model T HiPower and let us know how it works out.

Good grief! Thanks for the link. Incredible. That could possibly be the most abused pistol on the planet. (that still fires)

32 posted on 01/11/2013 10:59:46 AM PST by houeto (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: 762X51
Try this with your Model T HiPower and let us know how it works out.

Good grief! Thanks for the link. Incredible. That could possibly be the most abused pistol on the planet. (that still fires)

33 posted on 01/11/2013 11:00:03 AM PST by houeto (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Chainmail

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90


34 posted on 01/11/2013 11:06:30 AM PST by houeto (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Chainmail; All
I have read tests of Glock 17s going 200,000 rounds without replacement of major parts. I do not believe it can be done with a P35. I believe the frame will give out long before that. If I am wrong, please tell me of a comparable test with a P35.

The P35 highpower is a wonderful pistol. I would have no problem owning/using one for defensive purposes. But to all practical purposes, a Glock 17 is an updated P35 design using modern materials.

35 posted on 01/11/2013 11:35:09 AM PST by marktwain
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To: central_va

Had I not lost mine in a tragic boating accident, that’s the one I would continue to carry. That is, had it not been for the boating accident.


36 posted on 01/11/2013 7:12:28 PM PST by Dutch Boy
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To: marktwain
That endurance test for the Glock is very impressive and it somewhat modifies my opinion about that brand - however the 1911 .45 has undergone even worse testing for a longer period and it too came out beautifully functional. It's not a reach to suggest the Browning P35 is capable of the same or better.

Nonetheless, I won't ever be a Glock fan: ugly, wide, square slide, lots of stamped cheapo parts, and no idea how long the polymer frame will age before embrittling/cracking. Plastic isn't really forever.

37 posted on 01/12/2013 8:18:09 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: ansel12
During the 1978 Joint Service Small Arms Program discussions about replacing the .45, it was really obvious that the Army had "cooked the books" to favor the Beretta 92 and its 9mm caliber. There were lots of theories why but my favorite was because "women had trouble handling the .45". (I never found that to be the case).

During the choreographed presentations at Aberdeen Proving Ground, the Army Colonel in charge asked if anyone had questions. I raised my hand and asked "if this the same 9mm caliber the Germans lost the last two wars with?" and was told to shut up and sit down.

38 posted on 01/12/2013 8:24:14 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail

I bet the SAS will acquire some Glock 18s as well, and having a 33rnd mag for the 17 in some situations is an advantage.


39 posted on 01/12/2013 8:29:38 AM PST by Eye of Unk (AR2 2013 is the American Revolution part 2 of 2013)
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To: Chainmail

I remember that era, but as far as the Germans, I wouldn’t complain about their pistols, and they out killed us and the Brits and everyone else they fought, but luckily it was them versus the world, and we overwhelmed them.


40 posted on 01/12/2013 9:03:03 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: Chainmail

For a guy who was aware of guns during the period, I don’t know how you missed learning about Glocks in the early and mid 1980s, their durability and ability to function under bad conditions and it’s level of technological advancement, was a major gun story for years.

There was some bitter anger at them having been kept out of the American running for a new pistol, it was believed that the US should have adopted them if they were going 9mm, and that it was superior to the pistol the US military ended up with.

Some of you guys sound like the media, calling it “plastic”, “ugly”, “cheapo”, rather than the break through beast that it is, a wonderful tool, famous for reliability.

For 30 years I have been amused by guys who talk about Glock like women talk about purses, they think the Glock is ugly, too purely functional.

There are claims that Delta is/was using Glock.

“”There was a down select to the STI 2011 and Glock 22 in .40S&W. The 1911 were costing us way to much per gun to keep them running. Parts, labor, X-rays, you get the picture. Even when Kentucky (Lexington Depot) would build a gun, the unit gunsmiths would practically and literally rebuild the gun for the individual operator during the training course. There was a contract let years ago for a select manufacturer to make the frames and slides and several different parts and barrel manufacturers to make the internals. Much like the MEU/MARSOC pistols a while ago they just got to expensive.””


41 posted on 01/12/2013 9:39:39 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: Eye of Unk
I bet the SAS will acquire some Glock 18s as well, and having a 33rnd mag for the 17 in some situations is an advantage."

The SAS replaced their P35s with SIGs back in the early/mid 90's. The rank and file actually preferred the CZ75, but the MOD pushed for a weapon that had been built by a cold war ally, as the future prospects and allegiances of Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic were uncertain at the time.

42 posted on 01/12/2013 9:51:48 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Berlin_Freeper

As a Glock snob I’m happy for those servicemen, however now all those Glock makers will be busy filling that order. How will that affect the Glock inventory in the US?


43 posted on 01/12/2013 10:02:27 AM PST by mom.mom
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To: ansel12
"I remember that era, but as far as the Germans, I wouldn’t complain about their pistols, and they out killed us and the Brits and everyone else they fought.."

Not hardly, Big Guy! The Germans never had a prayer against the US Army once we got our act together through some tough experience. The M-1 rifle was far and away superior to the German rifles and even the introduction of the StG43/MP44 couldn't bring the balance back. I had an older friend who had been hit by five 9mm slugs from an MP-40 at Normandy but survived - know any Germans who took 5 .45 slugs and saw daylight again?

44 posted on 01/12/2013 11:20:55 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: ansel12
Great rationale: we should get the inexpensive weapons because maintaining/rebuilding high quality, dependable and lethal weapons is "too expensive". What if it's your life or your son's life on the line? Is cost the determining factor?

I am a combat veteran of the Vietnam War and I remember all too well the "hi-tech"/least bidder weapon we got to replace our M-14s with. Cost a lot of our lives, but what the hell, it's only somebody else's kids.

45 posted on 01/12/2013 11:25:11 AM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail

My understanding is that the Germans out killed us man for man, as they did the Brits, although we controlled the skies.

Your remark about Germany losing the war and that having some connection to the pistol that the officers carried, was pretty silly.


46 posted on 01/12/2013 11:26:48 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: Chainmail

We didn’t have the Glock during the Vietnam war when I and my brothers were serving, but it’s reliability and ease of maintenance, and light weight, and high capacity would have been useful for our American GIs, when the American made Colt rifles jammed.


47 posted on 01/12/2013 11:33:46 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: ansel12
I think your understanding of the Germans vs us kill ratio is incorrect. I have visited the graveyards all over Western Europe and there are many more Germans buried there than others. Visit Bastogne and have look. We had far superior small arms (they had no equivalent to the .50 cal and it was devastating), excellent and prolific artillery - with the new deadly proximity fuze - and between us and the Brits, the best close air support of the war.

My remark about the Germans "losing the war" with the 9mm was meant to be silly - I was just fencing with a set of colonels who were determined to change our primary caliber to 9mm para come hell or high water and it was my chance to tweak their noses in public. .40 S&W would have been a better choice if they really had to replace the .45 but they had their own agenda.

48 posted on 01/12/2013 12:01:59 PM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail
Glock; plastic frame, stamped parts, welded slide - a nonpermanent, disposable weapon. Browning P35; All milled steel quality, robust design, absolute reliability, designed to last centuries. Never settle for cheap stuff when your life depends on it.

Gun snob. Get it. Hear it for wine. Hear it for colleges. Hear it for just about anything. My Glock will fire perfectly well when my life depends on it. I will bet my life on it. I was in the service and my weapon was a 1911, and if I had to choose the weapon I have in my hand in a life and death situation I will choose the Glock.

49 posted on 01/12/2013 12:17:21 PM PST by Starstruck (The police carry weapons for self protection)
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To: Chainmail

Oh, well if you walked around and counted grave stones, that clearly proves everything.

Here is another claim.

“”According to calculations by the US Army the results of the battles in World War II were only possible, when the soldiers of the Wehrmacht - man for man and unit for unit - were 20 to 30 percent more effective then was the British and American forces they faced.

Extrapolating the individual soldiers against each other - and although the Wehrmacht was far lower in numbers - so the German troops that faced British and American troops under all combat conditions (for assaults with the usual factor of 1.0 - in the defense in carefully selected positions with view by a factor of 1.3 - in prepared defense positions 1.5 - in fortified defense positions by a factor of 1.6) cause approximately 50 percent higher losses than they suffer.
This was accessible whether the Germans were in attack or defense, if they were locally in place with higher numbers or - what was the rule - in lower numbers, if they had air cover or not, whether they had won the battle or lost at the end.

Even in the bitter years of defeats on the Russian front, the German combat effectiveness superiority over the Russians was even more pronounced. In the early days of the campaign in the east, one German division could take up with three Russian divisions of comparable strength and power. And, theoretically, under favorable defense conditions one German division could stand against no less than seven comparable Russian divisions.
In 1944 this superiority was still about 2:1, and one German soldier at the front caused an average loss of 7.78 Russians for one German. These figures need to adapted to the fact that the Wehrmacht in 1944 was almost always in the defense, had a relatively higher mobility and at this time the German weapons were better than the weapons of the Russians. But even if you take into account these considerations, the ratio for the infliction of losses was more than 4:1 and the German fighting power in battle was - man by man - about more than 50% better.””


50 posted on 01/12/2013 12:22:25 PM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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