Skip to comments.The VAT
Posted on 01/23/2013 5:22:11 PM PST by Jacquerie
My favorite radio talk show host, Mark Levin, has repeatedly warned us that among the possible new taxes, on retirement accounts and carbon, we can expect first off, a Value Added Tax. The lead-in will be ever wilder annual deficits; the spark may be a another threatened credit downgrade. A new do something solution will magically appear from another long weekend séance hosted by Plugs Biden, and voila, the masterminds will determine our once republic must have a VAT . . . NOW!
Its European pedigree is well known to the Obot regime and rat masterminds in Congress, and it is only a matter of time, the right time, to quickly introduce it and jam it into law.
Allow me a preemptive question that will certainly bounce around FreeRepublic. Is a VAT constitutional? Yes, I know the four stooges plus John Roberts took the fee or penalty or whatever it actually is in Obamacare, then did a little known blackrobe incantation and determined it to be of all things, a tax of an undetermined nature. For this discussion, leave that aside, and consider if an old fashioned European statist method of extracting enormous revenue from a dull witted American proletariat falls into one of the tax categories in our Constitution as written and later amended.
Those categories are direct taxes, capitation taxes, duties, imposts, excises, and income taxes. Which, if any would Constitutionally permit the VAT?
Levin is the BEST.
I support a VAT, in addition to our existing taxes.
Why? Because we are now spending well over a trillion dollars more than we collect in taxes EVERY YEAR. That will (and must) lead this country to economic collapse.
The debt is being piled on to MY KIDS (and even their kids, when they have them). Is this fair??? NO!!! My kids had NOTHING to do with this mess - they are not even old enough to vote. But today’s seniors are DEMANDING and TAKING their money, when they start working - to pay for their welfare (they call it Social Security and Medicare, but it’s welfare, since they’re stealing it from working people).
So let’s get a bit closer to pay-as-you-go and have a VAT. If old people DEMAND WELFARE and have the votes to get it, then fine - let them take it from today’s workers, NOT MY KIDS. My kids have their own lives to live and their own retirements to worry about, and they DESERVE a shot at it. As things stand, that is being robbed from them, every day this goes on.
Of course it is. What is there in the Constitution to forbid it?
Is it wise? Of course not. It's a tax on capital.
But I can't see why you'd question its consitutionality,
New taxes won’t be applied to any of the debt or deficit. New taxes will be used to justify even more spending. The politicians will be lining up and figuring up all kinds of ways to spend any new revenues.
The USSC ruled last year that Obamacare was a “tax” and therefore, Constitutional. If that monstrosity can be contrived as a tax, why wouldn’t a VAT?
Why not cut spending, "BobL"?
Why do we have to keep taking more money from more people? Why can't we cut spending, "BobL"?
I understand that fear, and until Obama took office, that was correct. Even Clinton and Carter hesitated GREATLY about spending like drunks...but this president, and his party, now, COULD CARE LESS about the size of the deficit - it simply is not hurting them, as most Americans cannot even comprehend what’s going on.
So, I think spending and revenue are totally decoupled at this point. If the Dems want to spend more, they will, regardless of whether there exists a means to fund it. So, given that - higher revenues really only mean one thing, less debt.
Now one can argue that higher taxes will slow the economy and not increase revenue, but I don’t buy it, providing that the tax is regressive enough - as taxes on the poor simply force them to stop buy cigarettes and Nike’s, and instead pay that in taxes. Increasing taxes on “the rich” has just the opposite effect, as the rich have ways to avoid the taxes.
“Why not cut spending, “BobL”? “
Because we CANNOT, that simple.
I’ve had more than enough arguments with old people on THIS SITE that insist on taking what they consider THEIR money from my kids, under the pretense that my kids somehow owe it to them.
When I tell them that they don’t have a claim on the earnings on my kids and if they keep pressing the country will collapse under the debt, they tell me they could care less.
I estimate that (non-scientifically) to be half of the FReepers in that age group. These are people that are otherwise conservative. If we cannot get off the government gravy train, why the heck should we expect today’s welfare recipients to sacrifice?
In other words, the issue is settled. People of this country DEMAND a 4 trillion dollar federal government, and we’re not even bringing in 3 trillion dollars. That is the problem - and NO ONE, not even FReepers, will give up their share of their ‘government goodies’.
So we might as well start paying for it, or we will be worse-off than Mexico, and not that long from now.
Raising tax rates and instituting new taxes does not increase revenue to the govt. Ever heard of the laffer curve?
You list Medicare and Social Security as “welfare”. Millions of people have been forced to pay into those two programs. You leave out Medicaid. Now that IS “welfare”. The same people who have paid into the Social Security and Medicare funds have also paid the taxes to support Medicaid. Most of the recipients of Medicaid haven’t paid a penny into the system. You should be ashamed to call Medicare and Social Security “welfare”.
“Raising tax rates and instituting new taxes does not increase revenue to the govt. Ever heard of the laffer curve?”
Unfortunately that only applies to high-end tax payers, not the lower classes that are either paying nothing, or less than nothing (as in EIC). That is why most European countries now have lower top-end marginal rates than even us, but hit the crap out of their lower classes - they know where the money is and who will be forced to pay.
(by the way, I just read today that union membership is even further down...seems like they’re still doing a great job of shutting down manufacturing here - good news to some of us)
Sure, Medicaid is also welfare.
Sorry if you don’t like my definition. But my definition of welfare is “transfer payments”, when the fruits of hard work of one group of people is transferred to a bunch of non-working ingrates - and Social Security fits that definition just as much as Medicaid.
The days of the “Lock Box” are long-gone, as well as any “trust fund”. It was all spent years ago. For the people retired now and those retiring, their “Social Security Tax” is nothing other than another income tax, it all goes into the same place and it is spent as it comes in and then some.
It is welfare...and since even conservatives DEMAND their welfare, nothing will change. I’m not an idiot. I know that there is NOTHING that I can do to change their attitude of entitlement to money that doesn’t exist and must become debt on my kids - but that’s why I support paying for it now - or at least going in that direction. To keep this country from collapsing, we MUST break the cycling of stealing from future generations.
We don’t need a VAT. The best thing we can do for your kids and my kids is keep spending like drunken sailors so that we default.
It will hurt a whole lot of people, but our kids will recover.
But man, a VAT is just obnoxious, and would live beyond a government default.
I’m feeling your rant though. Don’t let the “conservative” government dependents drag you down. Your heart is in the right place but we’re gonna go down in a spending inferno.
Also, suggest you look up Laffer Curve, because your previous answer is incorrect.
Nothing is guaranteed EXCEPT for two things:
1) We will NEVER cut spending because we now have more welfare recipients that vote than workers, at least when everyone is counted. Just no way.
2) This country WILL go broke if we don’t get closer to a balanced budget.
Given those two definites, the only option is to raise revenue, and then HOPE that it all doesn’t get spent. No promises here...but, as I said earlier, spending now has ZERO, NOTHING, at all to do with revenue...they are two different animals, which is why I hold out some hope here.
As to Laffer, he’s talking marginal rates and he’s right. I’m talking about the people on the bottom - I DO NOT support the latest tax increase ‘on the rich’ because I know that Laffer applies there, and it only slows the economy. However, at the bottom, there is revenue to be had...just the idea that some of it will come from Illegals having to pay more to live here, rather than wiring it home, gives me hope.
“We dont need a VAT. The best thing we can do for your kids and my kids is keep spending like drunken sailors so that we default...It will hurt a whole lot of people, but our kids will recover.”
Thanks. Being an RF engineer, you obviously know how to do math, and have done it. Others simply cannot believe that one day our dollar will not buy us ANYTHING on the world market, and when we need Chinese-made spark plugs to keep our tractors running for food production, we would be out of luck...until we can start making spark plugs (or whatever) again. We WILL be hungry. That is what a crash is, and I can you too have thought it through.
As to coming out better, you have a point. My kids, of course, know what’s in store for them, thanks to our current generation of welfare ingrates (on both sides of the political aisle). They get depressed and are (understandably) angry. I tell them to enjoy these years and remember them - it is the country that was left to us, and we threw it all away. It’s painful, as they know it wasn’t their fault - but there is NOTHING that they can do about it. The concept of starving Americans is alien to them - but when the tractors stop, that is what we’ll have (North Korea saw exactly the same thing, once they stopped getting Russian oil for their factories - before that, they were a wealthy country, at least by Communist standards).
But I also tell them that things may be better on the other side. Russia went through the same when they tossed off Communism. Their currency crashed and people were hungry. But they got by and they are in MUCH, MUCH, better economic shape than us. They have a future and they have the right set of moral values to pull ahead in the world. I wish that I could same the same here...but I cannot - we shall all see what happens.
“But man, a VAT is just obnoxious, and would live beyond a government default.”
Sorry, I meant to respond here. You do have a point. If we enter the crash with a VAT, we’ll have it on the way out and it will weigh us down. I guess the difference is that I still think that a crash can be avoided...or I used to think that. I was hoping that ALL of Bush’s tax cuts would have expired, along with a new VAT, along with European prices for gasoline (i.e., $9.00 per gallon). For all of those things would actually give us a fighting chance to balance the budget (again, because the taxes are what they need to be, which is regressive).
But Bush’s tax cuts are now permanent, so the ingrates at the bottom end never pay their share of the mess we have - so I’m starting to think also that a crash is no longer avoidable - we might as well just get it over with, and doing it with no VAT means that it will be sooner (which is good) and we may come out the other end in better shape.
So I’m thinking you convinced me.
“A bit” is right. It would only go an infinitesimal smidgen toward balancing the budget, and likely any benefit would be crowded out by the resulting economic contraction.
I predict you’re right, and that the Welfare/National Security State will never regress. But so far as that’s true it is equally true we cannot tax ourselves out of the problem, if only because, as a previous poster said, Washington will treat any extra revenue as license for more spending. That’s assuming it would actually result in extra revenue, rather than retard economic growth.
I am 72 years old. I was forced to pay into Social Security and forced to have Medicare. Do you actually think of these programs as welfare. That we seniors use these because we want to???? I would have loved to take all the money my husband and I paid into these programs over 50 years and put them into a private fund but we had no choice. I resent youremarks and suggest you look up SS and medicare and get educated. I am not an old geezer taking handouts.
“Millions of people have been forced to pay into those two programs.”
No, they were forced to pay taxes, in the same way they’re forced to pay other taxes. Welfare at the other end only connects to what you paid before in your head. Which is exactly what the New Dealers wanted you to think, still more evidence they are gamesmen and Pubs are the Stupid Party.
You are thinking in terms of the progressive income tax. VAT taxes hit low and high together.
Wrong. I can accept your two things, but there’s a third you omit:
3). Deficits and the debt will NEVER be paid for by tax hikes. They can’t even counterfeit their way out, because it’d sink our currency first.
You were nit forced to “pay into” anything but the U.S. treasury. There is no connection between taxes paid and eventual benefits received. That you and others persist in thinking otherwise, even after the central government admitted it, is a testament to the practical political (evil) genius of FDR, or whoever actually came up with it.
A few points:
1). We already have a VAT tax; it us called the corporate tax.
2). Capitation taxes are direct taxes.
3). VATs are indirect taxes and easily fall under the “taxes” and “imposts” headings. For it to be constitutional it must be uniform.
Thanks for the truth. I agree 100% regarding SS and Medicare being welfare. Entitlement mindset is 85% entrenched in even the republican party. I quit discussing SS years ago on FR because most can’t connect it with a wealth transfer scheme that it is. My kids future shouldn’t be borrowed against. I don’t know if the VAT is a good idea but your opinion has value with me. Thanks and keep speaking the truth!
“2) This country WILL go broke if we dont get closer to a balanced budget.”
The country WILL go broke, because we will NEVER “get closer” to a balanced budget, given the current leftward tilt of the nation.
A VAT won’t help, for the very reasons others have given — that is, the more you give them, the more they will spend. They won’t make more than a token effort to slow the progress towards financial collapse.
The ONLY incentive for the DC politicians to repair things will be AFTER:
- the Social Security monthly deposits cease
- the EBT cards run dry
- the doctors and hospitals stop receiving Medicare and Medicaid payments they have billed
- government employees stop receiving payment for their work
- those in the military find they are no longer being paid.
When that happens, you will see a real attempt to fix things.
But not until...
In the third paragraph I asked posters to ignore that monstrosity and refer only to the Constitution.
Of course, that doesn’t mean it will be opposed at all on that basis.
You’re on the wrong site, Bunky.
It’s interesting how you focus on the “old people” who have dumped their tax dollars down the government toilet their whole working lives, rather than focus on the moochers, deadbeats, and parasites who comprise the Democrat party base.
You focus on the “old people” who have dumped their tax dollars down the government toilet their whole working lives rather than on the rampant waste and corruption of intrusive, big thug government.
You focus on the “old people” who have dumped their tax dollars down the government toilet their whole working lives rather on than the illegal aliens who gobble up more and more from working Americans every year.
Take a hike you stinking troll, and take your VAT and the rest of your taxes with you.
After looking over the comments, it seems a lot of people don’t understand what a VAT is.
It is not a tax on capital. It’s a sales tax, only collected at each stage in the process of production rather than at the point of sale. Which greatly reduces the incentive to evade the sales tax.
The weird part is that the VAT is actually not that different from the national sales tax a lot of freepers seem to like. It’s a tax on consumption, not income, and it is not progressive.
If we were to replace our present income tax with a VAT, it might be a very good thing. But of course any VAT will be an additional tax, it will not replace any of the existing ones.
VAT is better than progressive income taxes because everyone pays it rather than 50% getting a free ride. But it should not be an additional tax. For every $1 more in new taxes, the government spends $2. A new VAT income stream isn't going to be any different.
Machines already do most of the work and wealth creation, and paying off debt. With robots that percentage is going way up. Your kids won't need to lift a finger. Their biggest challenge will be to avoid becoming human pets on food stamps, because pets are easily disposed of when their leaders lose interest in taking care of them.
eliminate all welfare, food stamps, housing payments, free medical care and we have too high a tax rate now!!!
I don’t owe those leaches one damn cent!
“Im not an idiot”
This thread prooves you are!
As far as your kids, that’s your problem for having them, if you’re so worried, provide for them before you croak but not on my dime!
“I am 72 years old. I was forced to pay into Social Security and forced to have Medicare. Do you actually think of these programs as welfare. That we seniors use these because we want to???? I would have loved to take all the money my husband and I paid into these programs over 50 years and put them into a private fund but we had no choice. I resent youremarks and suggest you look up SS and medicare and get educated. I am not an old geezer taking handouts.”
I’ve been working over 30 years myself, and I remember, from DAY ONE, everyone (young) saying that there was no way that Social Security would be there when we retired, so it’s been an OPEN SECRET that Social Security wasn’t real, since you were in your 40s, if not before then (and before then, the tax was much, much, lower than it is now).
Given that, you should have known that Social Security was simply a disguised income tax, since the money was NOT going into Al Gore’s lock box, but was being consumed in the general fund. The company that I worked for back then was also “borrowing” from its own pension fund - and I still remember the old timers then telling me how angry they were about it. They understood what it meant to steal retirement money.
But those people never complained about the same thing being done with Social Security...I guess they figured they were ENTITLED to the earnings of my kids. So I resent that too.
“You are thinking in terms of the progressive income tax. VAT taxes hit low and high together.”
Yes, they do...but not proportionally, assuming the VAT is applied widely, as the lower classes tend to spend a higher percentage of income money on consumption than the better off...at least according to conventional theory - and the Illegals and others paid under the table get a total free ride today at the federal level, on their cash economy.
“3). Deficits and the debt will NEVER be paid for by tax hikes. They cant even counterfeit their way out, because itd sink our currency first.”
Then why try. As you can see from some comments here, we’re not about to reform welfare (Food Stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, AFDC, Social Security, and EIC)...so it’s GAME OVER then.
“Thanks and keep speaking the truth!”
Thanks, it’s a rare comment on this subject. But we should keep it up. People need to understand that this is no longer their money, or ‘government money’, it is money from today’s and tomorrow’s workers.
As someone pointed out, support for euthanasia has now resulted from this. Look at Japan, just yesterday, their VICE PRESIDENT told old people to “Get out of the way and die”. He’s a bit more blunt than the Europeans, especially the British, that use the pleasant term “pathways” for executing their old people. These countries have done the math and realize that there is not even enough money for old people to steal from their grandchildren anymore - so now they must die.
I don’t want to get there...which is why I want to either finance this crap TODAY, or reform it (aka, welfare).
“The ONLY incentive for the DC politicians to repair things will be AFTER:
- the Social Security monthly deposits cease
- the EBT cards run dry...”
You’re basically right. But a VAT is a good way to hit others across the face to get them to understand just what’s coming. Right now people think this can go on forever.
“Its interesting how you focus on the old people who have dumped their tax dollars down the government toilet their whole working lives, rather than focus on the moochers, deadbeats, and parasites who comprise the Democrat party base...”
Actually I focus on people on this site because if they are not willing to pull their belts in to help the country get out of their mess, then NO ONE else will.
It’s all transfer payments now, and NO ONE wants to give them up...and I’m making the point that fighting the spending game is OVER, because our side simply demands our goodies, while expecting the other side to give up.
“Machines already do most of the work and wealth creation, and paying off debt. With robots that percentage is going way up. Your kids won’t need to lift a finger.”
That’s pretty radical. No, there’s still a LOT of real work that has to be done...and it will be my kids doing that.
“As far as your kids, thats your problem for having them, if youre so worried, provide for them before you croak but not on my dime!”
Oh, I see, you have a claim on the income of my kids - but I can’t have a claim on your wealth.
I think even you can now see what the entitlement mentality has done to destroy this country - from what it once was.
I don’t support a VAT, but BobL Head has a point. All the money we’ve paid into Medicare and Social Security is GONE. It is already spent. They survive by robbing current taxpayers whom they will, eventually, not be able to “re-pay.”
And Medicaid is welfare and I’d be happy to see it cease to exist.
Those “old people” are also the people who voted for those bottomless money pits or allowed them to be implemented.
Why not a VAT on food. That way only those who eat will have to pay it.
“Why not a VAT on food. That way only those who eat will have to pay it.”
Or people would eat less “boutique” foods, and rather eat still-good lower cost foods.
It’s a good idea as it would generate TREMENDOUS REVENUE, although the health food nuts (that pay double for their free range chicken) will be madder than heck at the thought.
you are so right and so wrong at the same time. Right in that SS is a Ponzi, wrong in that boomers are at fault or the enemy, even those that want to collect SS and medicare.
You are going after the wrong person. Most of us have railed against SS all our lives.
Heres truth. Even if you got all boomers to rip up their ss checks so our children will have some SS, the feds will still squander every penny on the worthless.
The evil people in goverment are your enemy.
More truth. it is obvious they plan on crashing the system. They are destroying savings and wealth with inflation and money printing. Heli ben said he would drop money so get your bucket out and try to provide for your family now.
I know its not righjt however its the on;ly choice you have
Tell you what son, send me a check for forty-five years of FICA payments taken without my consent with 3% interest compounded and we’ll call it even.
Bob, you have just enough information to be dangerous...what in the hell are you talking about, "our side" demanding goodies?
Most of the people on this site--the people on OUR side--have been forced to pay into the Ponzi scheme called Social Security. We're well aware that the government doesn't generate any income on its own, the government doesn't create any wealth, but we have no choice in the matter. So for us, for our side--yes, we have an expectation that some of that money we've paid in over the decades we've been at work should come back to us in our retirement years. I don't think getting back what we paid in is a "goody," and many of us know we might NOT get back everything we paid.
What you're arguing for is in effect a higher tax rate on all. You still think the Laffer Curve is about marginal rates, but it's actually about maximizing government revenue. The Laffer Curve, an inverted parabola, says that government revenue will increase proportionally with tax rates to a certain point. Then, any increase in tax rates actually causes less revenue to be gained (due to the negative impact on the economy.)
And if in fact your only focus is people on this site, get in line with the rest of the government moochers, you're no better than them. You want the productive people to pay more, but demand nothing in return.