Skip to comments.A Question for "conservatives" (Zot!)
Posted on 01/25/2013 8:05:16 AM PST by The_Freemason
I have a serious question for the "conservatives" on here. Why do you assume the GOP is conservative and why do you continue to support them? In he past 10 years the GOP has done nothing to prove they are a conservative alternative to the leftist democrats. They crow about fiscal restraint but GWB pushed the national debt to 10 trillion( don't throw out the Obama raised it 16, we know and it's not an answer). He started wars without congressional approval, gave us the TSA, Patriot act, warrantless wiretaps, drones flying over the country. Expanded medicare the list goes on. The current GOP is on the same bandwagon but does the same as the D's do. The GOP complains that the D's want a nanny state but they are no less intrusive. It's just that they want to control and determine your morals and values. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, Please.
The GOP claims to be for smaller gov't and personal freedom but I haven't seen either. If you truly believe in these ideals, IMHO the GOP is lying to you. I have been a Libertarian member for years. Only the LP actually believes in the idea of leaving you alone to live your life as YOU see fit. The LP would cut the budget into balance TODAY not 10 years from now (aka NEVER).
Maybe if more "conservatives" would stop worrying about what I ingest, who I marry and the like and examine what their party represents there could be a sea change in the country with 2 true competing visions for America. One based on free people, free minds and free markets and one based on planned markets, less freedom.
Ok, discuss amongst yourselves.
And if we’d just look the other way on abortion, more democrats would like us.
Your point is valid. However, in the real world adults have to make decessions on the bases of reality, not on how they would like things to be.
I don't assume anything, except that where there ARE conservatives in office, they ARE Republican.
In he past 10 years the GOP has done nothing to prove they are a conservative alternative to the leftist democrats.
NOTHING is preposterous, since they all voted against Obama Care, as one example.
They crow about fiscal restraint but GWB pushed the national debt to 10 trillion( don't throw out the Obama raised it 16, we know and it's not an answer).
In case you haven't figured it out, this is not Bush's party anymore and it hasn't been for a number of years. The Tea Party was very much against Bush, so again, why do you assume arrogantly you are the first person to ever figure this out. The GOP is awful, the Democrats are EVIL, and those are your choices.
Bush got Congressional approval for the use of force for both Iraq, and Afghanistan. What you probably mean is a declaration of war from Congress.
I follow your reasoning.
Some of it is valid, and many of us in here are ready to mve away from the Republican party, we only need a good alternative to run to.
Sop far I am ot impressed with Libertarians.
Democrats want jobless benefits in cliff deal
Saturday, December 08, 2012 2:21:08 PM · 2 of 62
The_Freemason to Olog-hai
what DONT they want and what WONT the gop give them?
So who are you now Cybil?
Reality is a pain in the ass, huh?
The few exceptions to this rule are either indoctrinated and programmed to go along with the beltway culture, or they are ripped apart by their own parties and media minions.
These so-called adults step away from a 15-foot-long alligator and stand next to a 12-foot-long alligator and call it "reasonable." It never occurs to them to get out of the swamp.
Unfortunately, short-sightedness is epidemic among Americans.
In the first place, who you marry means a great deal on this website. Be careful.
In the second place, the Ancient Charges show that the Craft represents "the centre of good men and true, and the happy means of conciliating friendship amongst those who must otherwise have remained at a perpetual distance".
Attacking those who choose to believe the teachings of the Supreme Architect of the Universe, whose Word is presumably open on your altar in open Lodge, does not accomplish this charge.
Let the GOP leadership know what you think (there’s a place to do so at the end of their questionnaire): http://growthopp.gop.com/default.aspx
We don't, and we don't.
He is the challenge for you. Small “l” libertarian philosophy has a lot of positives but the big “L” Libertarian Party has been a complete wreck, not only in its inability to get any electoral movement but its constantly setting aside the small “l” philosophies for whatever whim and conspiracy they want to hock up.
As Ayn Rand put it, they are the ‘hippies of the right who trade reason for whims and capitalism for anarchy’ (paraphrased).
Yea, the Republican party has many faults. They aren’t big “C” Conservative champions, but they are more conservative than Dems. They are our party and all we have going for us now unless there are some major seed changes. They have brought us faults (like the deficits you mentioned but failed to mention most of that was from Democrat written budgets) but they have also brought us people like Ted Cruz, Rand Paul (who, thank God is not his father), Louie Gohmert, and others who are winning elections and standing on principle. Much more than the Libertarian Party has ever brought us.
The two military actions were voted on and approved by congress.
As far as debt is concerned I am still waiting for a candidate and I don't care which party who will directly address government pensions. You fix that problem and our debt problem becomes completely manageable.
Why do you assume the GOP is conservative and why do you continue to support them?
I’m a conservative. I dumped the R party when they controlled both houses and the executive office and still spent like drunken sailors.
I held my nose and voted for them but after the last election I’m even done with that. I’m now a proud member of the Prepper party.
I’m with perdogg.
Put in short, the Libertarian Party is not a serious party, nor is any who tires to work their way from the Presidency downward, rather than the local level upward. You want to be a serious option? Build up an organization at the precinct level upwards. The same could be said for the Constitution Party, whose policies, I might add, are a lot more in line with conservatism than the Libertarians are.
The GOP is disappointing, but as noted above, it is the only place where conservatives actually get elected. We as conservatives need to do a better job wresting control away from the "go along to get along" crowd, not leave to join a political party doomed to failure for lack of understanding political organization.
that analogy is absurd. But I’ll help you out.
Choice A: a 20 foot alligator, with its mouth over our head.
Choice B: a 6 foot alligator a quarter of a mile away.
Both suck, but they are not in any way shape or form proportionately similar.
Next point, I am sure you know this isn't true. President Bush got Congressional approval for both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Second, based on your screen name I assume you are a risen brother. If so, how do you justify being a Freemason with being a Libertarian who is one of the foremost groups spreading falsities about our fraternity. They have demonized who we are and what we stand for more than almost anyone. If you find any conspiracy theory about us, the roots are almost always a libertarian leaning site or writer.
Because in the real world there is no alternative. The game is rigged, by centralized power and by big money. It's not like the early 1800's, when a new party could emerge.
The Dem's would LOVE IT if we tried to form a true Conservative Party. It would be like the Conservative Party in New York, but on a national scale. The non-Dem vote would be split, and the Dem's would sweep every election.
As sad as it sounds, our best hope is to try to nudge the GOPe in the right direction while hoping another Reagan emerges.
If the Libertarian Party could develop some leadership with Gravitas,
I'd consider it,
but the party itself has more flakes than Kellogg
Wow, the day for absurd analogy continues.
Not Coke or Pepsi.....more like putrid water or cyanide. One will kill instantly, one will eventually kill, therefore potentially buying you time.
One is guaranteed death, one is the risk of death. But no, not coke and pepsi. Cute, but not applicable.
Excellent observation. I should have included something like that in my post (#21).
If you're a libertarian, why are you appealing to conservatives?
When I was in Young Americans for Freedom, I had many encounters with libertarians. They always emphasized that "we are NOT conservatives, we are libertarians." The biggest issue that motivated them was the legalization of narcotics, which is not very high on the conservative agenda. Nor is legalizing prostitution, removing all restrictions on gambling, or keeping abortion legal.
Your #21 was excellent, and the mention of Reagan is crucial. He fought these battles 50 years ago, and had a lot of heated arguments with Jesse Helms over it in fact. Reagan prevailed, and Jesse worked with Reagan to redefine the party and even Obama knows to this very day that Reagan is the man who not only influenced the party, he changed the trajectory of the entire country.
Reagan would be the first to tell you it would not have happened with another party. What people don’t want to admit is this: the problem is human nature, and that same human nature will reside in whatever third, or fifty third party, is conjured up.
Humans like power and they protect their turf. Thus, any political party will by definition DO THE SAME - unless somehow we can find some perfect people to run them. I haven’t seen too many of those around here, or anywhere.
ITS THE HUMAN NATURE, STUPID.....
I can appreciate your opinion of the GOP (I’ll add, however the “-e”) re: what they’ve done and are doing.
I’ve mentioned here multiple times about what a fool W was with the TSA and many of his ‘compassionate conservative’ intiatives (NCLB, medicare prescriptions, et al). He protected us from without, but forgot about the enemy from within (Democrats).
We conservatives, at least here in Georgia, have successfully now convinced Saxby Chamblis that he can’t win a run for the Senate in 2014. A major coup!
I am NOT, however, about to go full-blown nutball Libertarian, period. Many personal choices many people make I could care squat about. When it comes to, say, through tax dollars, pay for abortions, I’m against it.
Drugs....meth, cocaine, and the rest can do no good for society; they’re just misery in pill form. But, Big L libertarianism says that I shouldn’t care about it if it doesn’t harm me tangibly. The problem the tangibles is that they are a miasmic ether that disperses throughout society with dire consequences.
It is not traditional conservatism here that is the problem.
My main problem with the LP is that they believe if America just minds its own business, that no foreign power will come and mind it for us. In a perfect world, libertarian would be the way to go. In an imperfect world, we must realize that America could not afford to go libertarian, until every other government went libertarian, at least with respects to foreign affairs.
I see big unconstitutional government as a beast to be feared. It seems to me that the Bush GOP grew government, both in size and power, just as much as the Obama Rats. Coke and Pepsi works for me.
Yes, but thats NOT the model implied by the OP
You have a really perverted interpretation of “just as much” not to mention an incredible blind spot to how many Republicans were againt Bush every step of the way. Sorry, analogy still a fail,
....and let me add that your understanding that the Bush GOP ever had philosophical control of the government leads me to believe that perhaps you and I come at this with varied levels of understanding of what “control” of the government means.
30 years. PM as well. I do not ascribe to what I will call the Alex Jones Libertarians. My belief in the teachings and morals of the GATOU are part of my life, but they are mine and I will not attempt to force them upon others. I however believe in freedom of thought, word and personal deed. As did my brothers before me who founded this country.
Unlike you I am a result orientated voter. I look at the results, not the motivations. My father long ago taught me that the "road to hell is paved with good intentions". Bush ruined the GOP for conservatives. There is no redemption from the hell brought upon us by Bush via the GOP. Obama is the Bush legacy.
So you're for homosexual marriage and legalizing drugs?
I used to like Libertarians years ago, but the LP split with Ron Paul taking the constitutionalists into the GOP and left the LP with the anything goes crazies. The LP is worthless these days.
Brother, do not presume to know what is in my heart. Just because I embrace freedom does not mean I have disdain for belief in the GAOTU. I and I believe my founding brothers abhorred blind obedience and following. So many people have become willfully blind to the lack of courage of the GOP that it scares me.
BTW. this website might be in support of traditional marriage but do they also value freedom of thought?
Brother, you started it.
I embrace freedom as well. I endorse it on God's terms, however, which are quite explicit in what I must do. Though you are quite correct to note that today's Republican Party has left the majority of conservatives in its Democrat-loving wake.
“It never occurs to them to get out of the swamp.”
There is no getting out of the swamp, it’s all swamp.
” If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberalsif we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.
Now, I cant say that I will agree with all the things that the present group who call themselves Libertarians in the sense of a party say, because I think that like in any political movement there are shades, and there are libertarians who are almost over at the point of wanting no government at all or anarchy. I believe there are legitimate government functions. There is a legitimate need in an orderly society for some government to maintain freedom or we will have tyranny by individuals. The strongest man on the block will run the neighborhood. We have government to insure that we dont each one of us have to carry a club to defend ourselves. But again, I stand on my statement that I think that libertarianism and conservatism are travelling the same path.”.....Ronald Reagan Reason magazine 1975.
What a nutcase(by FR’s definition)
I guess the alligator is in the eye of the beholder.
Let me ask you a couple questions:
When was the last time total federal spending actually went down under Republican control?
How many new federal departments and agencies were formed under Republican control?
The “Alex Jones Libertarians” are the bulk of the party and generally have been a good description of all their Presidential nominees with the possible exception of Barr (who most Libertarians had a hissy fit over). Hell, Hospers could be consider the intellectual grandfather of Jones types. You complain about the RINO Bush type poisoning the Republican well but Hospers and Roots and Ron Pauls and Johnsons have done more to poison the Libertarian well than the RINOs have done to poison the Republican well (as evidence by actual electoral accomplishments.)
Convince good conservatives to run.
Elect them in the primaries.
The elect them in the general election.
To achieve this, short-sighted americans MUST be convinced of the merits. This task, to convince Americans to vote for conservatives, is not made easier by leaving the GOP.
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