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Cops vs. Joe Six Pack...who's more qualified
25Jan13 | qaz123

Posted on 01/25/2013 8:58:18 AM PST by qaz123

Just putting something out there to the the folks of FR, who tend to be a bit smarter than your average Joe. And to all the folks that have a tendency to start the whole, "all you cop bashers suck", try to be fair. I've in law enforcement for over 15 years. I believe strongly in the 2nd Amendment. I also do not think I am any smarter, responsible or skilled than any other gun owner who has taken the time to train and know their weapon. Anywho.....

Here's my question:

Why is it, that active and retired law enforcement officers/agents/corrections, are the only ones given special treatment and exempted with regards to gun legislation?

Are we all to assume that ONLY those with those types of credentials are SMART ENOUGH and RESPONSIBLE ENOUGH to be allowed to carry a weapon to protect themselves and others.

I read an article the other day and some type of retired Captain of NYPD was quoted on the new NYS laws. He described a "clip". There is no such thing as a "clip" with regards to semi automatic weapons. The device is called a "magazine".

I, or anyone, can go to any weekend ISPSC, USPSA, or IDPA match and observe Joe Six Pack, outshoot any cop in the country. I know that because I am one of the few, if not the only member of law enforcement that regularly attends such matches. On occasion, cops show up one time, but after getting embarrassed by some plumber, orthodontist or computer programmer, the cops never show up again. And in many cases, Joe Six Pack probably knows the law better.

And lets not forget the two sharpshooters outside the Empire State Bldg. not so long ago that shot 9 people, in the lower legs and feet, from about 10 feet away. Those are Bloombergs "professionals" that should be the only ones allowed to carry.

Just wondering what others on here think.


TOPICS: Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; citizens; guncontrol; guns; lawenforcement; secondamendment

1 posted on 01/25/2013 8:58:24 AM PST by qaz123
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To: qaz123

In all professions there are people of honor and people not so much.
I’d call a cop before I called a liberal.


2 posted on 01/25/2013 9:01:00 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: qaz123
Why is it, that active and retired law enforcement officers/agents/corrections, are the only ones given special treatment and exempted with regards to gun legislation?

My guess is they don't want to be out gunned if and when the time comes.

3 posted on 01/25/2013 9:03:13 AM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: qaz123

Its about kickbacks in return for support, control, govt is god, cops are gun experts, self control and initiative are bad, etc etc, Take your pick. We don’t live in an adult society any more which is why we’re having this conversation.


4 posted on 01/25/2013 9:05:42 AM PST by 556x45
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To: qaz123
I think LEOs are sometimes placed on a pedestal - the higher up in the organization, the more they think they belong there.
I think some of this is deserved - as a kid we were taught that the cops were the "good guys" and to respect them.
As you say, the skill level isn't the distinction. I have personally outshot many officers and Sheriff's deputies in matches, and you're right - they seldom come back for more.

There is a training aspect. The whole shoot-don't shoot thing that is taught and reinforced during your career.

But as far as legislators are concerned, I think they exempt you to keep their gun control supporters (police chiefs) on their side.

Sometimes they screw up - witness New York not exempting LEOs on the magazine thing.

5 posted on 01/25/2013 9:08:14 AM PST by grobdriver (Sic semper tyrannis!)
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To: qaz123
Being a great shot at a shooting range is certainly important.

But some training and a great deal of real life experience is much more important. Having the judgment in a potentially dangerous situation with only limited facts and time to react in the safest possible way is the key.

The targets at the range don't shoot back at you.

6 posted on 01/25/2013 9:09:31 AM PST by oldbrowser (They are marxists, don't call them democrats)
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To: grobdriver

The ‘shoot-don’t shoot’ aspect is there. However, I’ve been around some dumb ones that can’t even complete a sentence.

But that guy in Oregon had the sense to make the “shoot don’t shoot’ decision correctly.


7 posted on 01/25/2013 9:12:55 AM PST by qaz123
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To: qaz123

the same thing happens with former military.
all soldiers are not firearm experts or marksman. very few even shoot except for annual qualification. (might be different no given the current type of war).
all sailors are not expert small boat handlers. hell the only water a submariner on a boomer sees during deployment is the bug juice machine and what he passes.


8 posted on 01/25/2013 9:13:29 AM PST by bravo whiskey (“People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.”)
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To: oldbrowser

Point taken.

But are they more qualified than say a grunt from the 82nd Airborne, that did 4 or 5 rotations.

Are they more qualified than the thousands of retired SpecOps-Delta-SEAL’s-and any other close combat unit you can name. Those guys got shot at, blown up, shot down, etc etc etc.? Those guys aren’t exempted.

And, to go a bit further, those are the guys that every F**king SWAT team in America tries to emulate. I’m a bit passionate on this subject.. My bad.


9 posted on 01/25/2013 9:17:34 AM PST by qaz123
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To: qaz123
“...retired law enforcement officers/agents/corrections, are the only ones given special treatment and exempted with regards to gun legislation?...”

My take is that these people have had a lot of exposure to criminals and have had threats made on their lives by those criminals. In our society where we tend to let a lot of violent people out of correction centers at times in their lives when they WILL re-offend, so it makes sense to allow retired LEO to have firearms for self defense.

While I am not in LE, I have as an engineer helped with the upgrade and design of several correction centers and involuntary commitment mental health facilities. The inmate population in most has a very violence-prone culture and those who work there have to be “harsh” in the way they treat the inmates otherwise they will be in danger and walked all over. I would assume that the same is true in dealing with these criminals before they are convicted and out on the streets.

I have no problem with allowing retired LEO automatic concealed carry rights, as long as honest law abiding people also have reasonable access to concealed carry and firearms for self protection.

10 posted on 01/25/2013 9:17:56 AM PST by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: grobdriver

I was taught the same business that they are the good guys but any more that just doesn’t apply. I take it on a case by case basis. Frankly, most just dont have the temperament to be a good peace officer. Most have delicate egos which causes problems w/ the community and in their personal lives.


11 posted on 01/25/2013 9:21:30 AM PST by 556x45
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To: bravo whiskey

Correct. And I guess that kind of supports my point.

It doesn’t matter what you do or have done. Just because someone decided to become a cop, doesn’t make them any more qualified than anyone else.

I was a cop in Atlanta. Most of the folks took the job for the paycheck and the pension. I was a firearms instructor there. There were a few that shot regularly, but that happened when they were rookies. Most just shot once a year. And it wasn’t uncommon to have to show veterans how to take their pistols apart for cleaning.


12 posted on 01/25/2013 9:21:54 AM PST by qaz123
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To: qaz123

“Why is it, that active and retired law enforcement officers/agents/corrections, are the only ones given special treatment and exempted with regards to gun legislation? “

Easy Answer:

The vast majority of “Law Enforcement Officers” in this Country have been conditioned to respond to Politicians and their Unions, and the people be damned. For the most part they will Violate the Law and any Citizen’s right when ordered to regardless of whether it is right or wrong, criminal or not, we Know they will do this because they are not even Qualified to negotiate their own salary or benefits, let alone Stand on their own when they see wrongdoing. They are Puppets of the Politicians that bark out their orders, they act with reckless disregard for the basic freedoms and liberties of the Citizens they are Hired to TAX. This was different 40 or so years ago when they were “Peace Officers” charged with keeping the peace, that is when I had respect for the Police, but since the early 70’s it has gone downhill fast, as far as I am concerned I have more faith and trust in the average Gang Member to be Honest and Truthful. Now I realize this is a General statement but I believe it holds true for 95% of the “Law Enforcement Officers” in this Country, maybe you are the exception, but then again maybe not.

Let us not forget what happens in virtually every Police Department across the country when one of their own is caught dead to rights being an out and CRIMINAl, the entire force backs them up and makes excuses for them, the Politicians and DA’s then do their part by allowing them to resign with FULL PENSION, further cementing their psychological hold on the very lives of the Officers under them.
Just look at the 2 most recent cases of Murder by a Police officer, Fullerton,Ca. Kelly Thomas case, the ENTIRE dept and the politicians stood behind them and still do to this day after at least 4 rogue thugs BEAT HIM TO DEATH. The DA saw fit to charge only 2 of them so far, completely disregarding the Felony Murder Rule, and Did not charge either with MURDER, Instead a version of Manslaughter, they ALL SHOULD CHARGED. Next Long Beach, CA. Doug Zirby, He was drunk, sitting in an “ENCLOSED” courtyard NOT VISIBLE to the Public, when an old blind man in an upstairs unit next door called 911 and said it “looks like he has a six shooter”, The Police showed up, sneaked into neighboring yards and took COVER then without warning or notice, never even bothering to make contact, they EXECUTED HIM IN COLD BLOOD while in FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES while hiding in the Bushes, from a Man holding a garden hose that was drunk and had NO IDEA THEY WERE THERE, even if he Had a Gun in his Hand, HE WOULD HAVE BEEN VIOLATING NO LAWS, It is Perfectly Legal to Have a firearm on Private Property. THe ENTIRE Long Beach Police Dept still to this day, Stand Behind these Murderers, as well as the Political Ruling Class. Hell the DA Steve Cooley, even said the Police Have the Right to EXECUTE anyone they fear without recourse, regardless if the Fear is real or made up after the fact. I suppose we could talk about New Orleans after hurricane Katrina when the “Law Enforcement Officers” began Shooting Unarmed Citizens for no reason, and of Course The Entire dept is still on their side.

So the answer is simple YOU WILL DO THEIR BIDDING FOR YOUR OWN SELF INTEREST AND SURVIVAL WITHOUT QUESTION, Just like the SS and the Gestapo. It is and has been demonstrated on a regular basis for quite some time now. “Law Enforcement Officers” are by definition MORALLY BANKRUPT and will NEVER HOLD THEMSELVES OR THEIR FELLOW OFFICeRS to the SAME STANDARDS they are CHARGED WITH ENFORCING on the TAXPAYERS BY THEIR MASTERS.


13 posted on 01/25/2013 9:34:03 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: qaz123
I think it boils down to time on the range. The gun club that I belong provides free access to the ranges to the township police. I know the police qualify at the club, but I do not see them at the club practicing several times a week like many other members.

Maybe they just see a gun as part of their uniform or one of the many tools that they use on the job. Actually, since the is nearly zero violent crime here, I would think their gun rarely leave their holsters.

The members that use the range regularly are their because they want to be there and they enjoy shooting.

14 posted on 01/25/2013 9:34:08 AM PST by ConservativeInPA (Molon Labe)
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To: qaz123
It doesn't matter who's more qualified. The cop works for Joe Sixpack but Joe doesn't work for the cop. No cop hating there, just recognition of the roles of the state and the individual in society.

Thanks for your (very honorable) service by the way!

15 posted on 01/25/2013 9:40:03 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Still Thinking

“The cop works for Joe Sixpack “

What planet are you on??the Police work exclusively for the POLITICIANS THAT HIRED THEM, their main function in Every Big City is to TAX THE CITIZENS using Citations that CANNOT be CHALLENGED. A Police Officer HAS NO DUTY to PROTECT THE PUBLIC, only the GOVERNMENT, look it up.


16 posted on 01/25/2013 9:50:30 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: Robert357
Yes, they put references to retired LEO/C due to the many enemies that we can attract living in communities that we have worked in. I have run into 2-3 hundred in the 10 years since I retired from corrections and these are the ones I dealt with for 8 hours a day for some up to 20 years, that I really didn't want as friends or neighbors.
17 posted on 01/25/2013 9:53:38 AM PST by bdfromlv (Leavenworth hard time)
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To: qaz123
Several months after the Rodney King incident my Martial arts instructor and I were asked to give some seminars to various Police groups. The very first thing we did was to ask them what was hanging from their belt or in their hands. They usually answered "Night stick" or "Billy club". we asked them which would be easier to defend in court, one of those terms or "Defensive tactical baton."

We immediatly saw the light come on in some of their eyes.

Small things like that can make a big difference when you are sitting on the witness stand.

18 posted on 01/25/2013 9:53:49 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: qaz123

I posted this previously on another post.

Excerpt from the rapper KRS1 song

Sounds of da Police

“Overseer, overseer, overseer, overseer

Officer, Officer, Officer, Officer, yeah, officer from overseer

You need a little clarity? Check the similarity

The overseer rode around the plantation

The officer is off patroling all the nation

The overseer couldn’t stop you what you’re doing

The officer will pull you over just when he’s pursuing

The overseer had the right to get ill

And if you fought back, the overseer had the right to kill

The officer has the right to arrest

And if you fight back they put a hole in your chest

Woop, they both ride horses

After 400 years, I’ve got no choices

The police them have a little gun

So when I’m on the streets, I walk around with a bigger one”


19 posted on 01/25/2013 10:05:22 AM PST by USAF80
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To: qaz123

Your question is a reasonable one. But you set some important conditions. First is the question of training and practice. As a practical matter, a civilian who puts in the training and practice time can be as effective or more so than most LEOs. I’ve had the misfortune to work with LEOs who were deliberately and proudly ignorant regarding firearm proficiency. They took perverse pride in shooting just the minimum score to qualify. Thankfully these slugs are few and getting fewer but they do exist.

Second is a question of screening and selection. Theoretically, LEOs go through psychological tests and background checks to weed out the nuts. Obviously, this system still misses quite a few. Plus I am convinced that the increasingly militaristic training regimens used by too many academies create mind numbed robots instead of professionals who can think on their feet.

So in comparing any two, civilian vs LEO, there is no reason to automatically think the LEO would be better qualified to be armed. But when we look at a macro, on average across a population, one would have to think that a population of folks who were held to some standards of selection, screening, fitness, proficiency, training and supervision would be - on average - better suited to carry.

That having been said, I absolutely support the right of private citizens to be armed. But the right confers a responsibility to be fit, mature, proficient and sober if you are going to carry.

Let’s ALL be careful out there.


20 posted on 01/25/2013 10:10:06 AM PST by SargeK
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To: qaz123
But are they more qualified than say a grunt from the 82nd Airborne, that did 4 or 5 rotations.

They are likely the same people. LEOs are almost exclusively former military. Those with advanced military experience are probably better qualified LEOs.

Comparing a SpecOps to basic grunt with swat team experience would be an interesting comparison. I think I would probably prefer to have the SpecOps on my side.

21 posted on 01/25/2013 10:11:42 AM PST by oldbrowser (They are marxists, don't call them democrats)
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To: eyeamok

Hear, hear!


22 posted on 01/25/2013 10:14:58 AM PST by Boogieman
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To: oldbrowser

Not likely the same people, at least that’s been my experience. Maybe in some of the smaller, rural departments where most of your typical infantry guys come from.

But in the city, the non-military LEO’s far outnumber the vets. Maybe, with all the guys returning it might swing a bit, but my buddies that used to do the background investigations had a hard time getting folks interested when they did the job fairs at military bases.

But a squad of guys from the 82nd or 2MarDiv aren’t any less qualified than any other 21 year old that goes thru the police academy.


23 posted on 01/25/2013 10:18:52 AM PST by qaz123
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To: eyeamok

YOU WILL DO THEIR BIDDING FOR YOUR OWN SELF INTEREST AND SURVIVAL WITHOUT QUESTION

Don’t forget Katrina and the gun grab they had down there. I watch those videos and they make me sick to see and hear what went on down there.


24 posted on 01/25/2013 10:21:02 AM PST by qaz123
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To: eyeamok

and by the way, I won’t be doing anyones bidding.

I believe in this country and what it stands for, at least what it used to stand for.

I will keep my oath.


25 posted on 01/25/2013 10:22:44 AM PST by qaz123
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To: qaz123
I am former military. I am former law enforcement. I am former military law enforcement. I am Joe 6-pack.

Guess I got all my bases covered :-)

26 posted on 01/25/2013 10:24:09 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: qaz123
I read an article the other day and some type of retired Captain of NYPD was quoted on the new NYS laws. He described a "clip". There is no such thing as a "clip" with regards to semi automatic weapons. The device is called a "magazine".

Actually a semi auto can have a clip, the M1 Garand does.

27 posted on 01/25/2013 10:24:51 AM PST by Ratman83
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To: qaz123

Cops have proved themselves to the “Establishment” by enforcing their will, raising revenue, etc. So naturally they get a few perks.
Also, since the officers HAVE proved their political reliability, the Establishment WANTS them armed while off duty - just in case.


28 posted on 01/25/2013 10:25:13 AM PST by Little Ray (Waiting for the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.)
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To: eyeamok

I’m on planet earth. And until recently, I admit, that I was unaware of some of the SCOTUS decisions about the actual responsibilities of LEO’s and how they’re aren’t actually required to protect anyone but themselves.

I’m with you on pretty much every point you’ve made so far.

I hate the fact that they, I for that matter, will get special consideration when I know that its not deserved. I and no other member of law enforcement are any more deserving of the right to keep and bare arms than anyone else.


29 posted on 01/25/2013 10:27:09 AM PST by qaz123
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To: bdfromlv

So, you chose a job that would put you up close and personal. Your choice.

Does your chosen profession make you any more responsible in owning and handling a firearm than anyone else? No it does not.

Unless you were a county sheriff that did detention work, the only time you had a gun was off-duty, maybe doing a transport or when you were in a tower.

So, again why is your safety any more important than any other citizen when confronted with those same individuals?


30 posted on 01/25/2013 10:30:30 AM PST by qaz123
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To: Ratman83

The old Mauser C96 “Broomhandle” loads from a 10 round stripper clip.


31 posted on 01/25/2013 10:31:47 AM PST by Little Ray (Waiting for the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.)
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To: eyeamok

No, I’m talking reality, what’s right, not what our employees wish it were. The decisions you cite, for example, were rendered by a key branch of the employee group. What do you expect?


32 posted on 01/25/2013 10:37:03 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: eyeamok

Alright, let me see if I can simplify it.

Joe’s existence and the existence of those like him with jobs that create wealth justify the cop’s existence (not as a human being, but the existence of his job as a cop).

Imagine for a moment a society with all private sector and no public. Might not be a very nice place to live, but it could exist and be self-sustaining.

Now imagine the reverse, a society that’s all public sector and no private. It won’t work. The government can print money to give the cops and teachers, but all money does is denominate value and make a convenient way to transfer it. The money is worthless in itself; it’s only value is it’s ability to purchase food, cars, houses, fuel to operate the cars and houses, etc.

The public sector is impossible, and pointless anyway, without the private. The private sector could survive without the public, though that survival might have some undesirable characteristics to it.

So the public sector is a tax if you will, on the wealth created solely in the private sector, in exchange for which they (are supposed to) maintain a more desirable society for members of the private sector to live in.

They’re essentially security and law and order contractors, like a plumber. That plumbers exist is a convenience, but if you had to figure out how to change your own toilet, you could do it.


33 posted on 01/25/2013 10:48:07 AM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: qaz123
Why is it, that active and retired law enforcement officers/agents/corrections, are the only ones given special treatment and exempted with regards to gun legislation?

I think the entire concept is insulting in the extreme to the vast majority of citizens of this nation. When cops retire, they should be treated no differently than anyone else. Of course, you'll always find some who will support the idea that 'some animals are more equal than others'.

34 posted on 01/25/2013 10:55:14 AM PST by zeugma (Those of us who work for a living are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: Joe 6-pack

lol


35 posted on 01/25/2013 11:05:17 AM PST by al baby (Hi Mom)
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To: qaz123
In all of my positions held I had to (re-qualify not familiarize) with weapons yearly and was allowed to use our range as needed(yes all prisons have weapons ranges) and for riot control practice (yes we did practice) I have qualified with M-16, 45, 38, 9mm, shotgun, grenade launcher, got to fire the M14, thompson, american 180, M60 and 50M. Yes my profession made me more proficient, My service and professionalism made me more responsible than most civilians. Your assumptions about the general character of correctional professionals is wrong, but as with any group there are bad apples. Sam Colts, An armed society is a polite society is the way I feel. My career choice made me a target for people you will probably never meet, but each of them has friends and family that may wish to come after me and mine for reasons they feel are justified.
36 posted on 01/26/2013 4:00:37 AM PST by bdfromlv (Leavenworth hard time)
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To: qaz123

You sound sincere, and I hope and pray you are one of the good guys, but remember this, the very people in uniform that you and your friends protect from scrutiny for their Criminal Wrongdoing will be the ones to eliminate those of you that do not tow the party line when it all falls apart. Which is why I say YOU will do their bidding or be exterminated. History shows us that this has happened time and time again. For now I will take you at your word, mainly because of your response, you didn’t respond like the majority of bootlickers do. and for that I applaud you. Keep up the good fight.


37 posted on 01/26/2013 5:39:16 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: Still Thinking

I expect those that are honest to stand up against the wrongdoing, regardless of WHO IT IS, we used to call this Integrity, Character, DOING THE RIGHT THING. But that is not the way it happens, any Honest cop is immediately silenced by the vast majority of the corrupt ones, take Florida for example, recently a State trooper did a Felony stop on an OFF DUTY City cop for reckless driving at speeds exceeding 100mph,in a squad car, SHE DID THE RIGHT THING and look what happened, the off duty cop in a squad car deserved to be PUT IN JAIL and FIRED, but that’s not what happened in the end is it??


38 posted on 01/26/2013 5:45:59 AM PST by eyeamok
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To: bdfromlv

My career choice had me deal with those people on the street. More times than not, alone as where I worked we didn’t have 2-man cars. I dealt with them before you did, in a very uncontrolled environment.


39 posted on 02/01/2013 6:44:55 PM PST by qaz123
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To: qaz123
Having worked with both caged and loose individuals with the criminal propensity and life style, think about your interaction with many non criminals and a mix of light weight wannabees, mothers, children, routine interactions that cause paper work, most you can direct to other handlers and workers, then the stupid lawbreakers mixed with some with actual criminal intent/in progress situations. Most days covering large areas and taking reports. Yes you can be in areas that cause you anxiety and distress you are mostly on your own and if necessary can protect yourself with vest and various weapons. Now think of the federal pen where terrorists, crips, bloods, Aryan brotherhood, nuestra familia, Mafia, serial killers, pedos, murderers, car jackers, drug dealers,etc. are your workers and maintenance men. They are let out of their cells at 6am and dont have to get back to lock in till 10 pm. they carry tools past you to do their jobs and you are the one of three correctional officers in a cell house of up to 500 inmates and you dont have a vest gun or knife only a uniform, and a pen. You try to watch what goes on and at any time one group can be at war with another or some one feels disrespected by another. I know who the bad guys were every one. uncontrolled environment yeah. try standing a messhall with 500 inmates with knives and forks. Now the courts say you cant even swear at the boys if they throw shit on you or spit in your face, everyone of them know how to sue your ass for anything. Yes we each chose our job but unless you have walked in the others shoes Dangerous environment is in the mind of the individual. You fear what you want to, I just want to be prepared for anything. I didnt ask nor want special treatment. but I wont turn it down if its given.
40 posted on 02/02/2013 6:40:22 AM PST by bdfromlv (Leavenworth hard time)
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