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What is "Closing The Gunshow Loophole"
2-5-13 | misanthrope

Posted on 02/05/2013 9:55:40 AM PST by misanthrope

What is "Closing The Gunshow Loophole" ?

At the top of the list of changes to gun transaction restrictions the left has bleated on for years is what they have deceptively labelled "Closing The Gunshow Loophole". On it's face, it would seem they are referring to firearms transactions that occur at gunshows between private parties not involving an NICS background check.

When you listen carefully, though, you also hear the Progressive explanations include firearms transactions that occur at other venues such as flea markets. Every now and then, if you listen really closely, the liberal will let slip that the REAL problem is the non NICSed transaction itself, regardless of where it takes place or between whom.

So, it should be understood that when an anti-gun rights activist refers to "Closing The Gunshow Loophole", it is simply code-speak for what is more accurately referred to as "Universal Background Checks".

Assuming that the Federal government, and the various state governments that require some form of licensing to purchase firearms, can be taken at their word that they have not maintained data pertaining to who bought what firearm, most all firearms are literally untraceable despite the data on the form 4473. Within some restrictions, any individual that has purchased a gun from an FFL at a retail establishment throughout history could have sold (or otherwise transferred) that firearm to any anonymous individual with no obligation to retain any data on the transferee's identification whatsoever.

It's safe to assume that there are literally millions, or perhaps tens of millions, of firearms floating around out there that cannot be tracked down to the current owner using the data contained on form 4473.

So, enter the "Universal Background Check" (AKA "Closing The Gunshow Loophole").

Simply put, there is currently NO WAY to enforce the performance of an NICS background check between private, non-FFL individuals. Individuals wishing to trade a firearm privately will simply do so knowing that they preserve their anonymity, the firearm being traded preserves it's non-trackable status, and there are no possible legal ramifications (short of being caught by the authorities in the act of conducting the transaction).

The only way to enforce a "Universal Background Check" (AKA "Closing The Gunshow Loophole"), has to be via connecting firearms owners with firearm's serial numbers.

We call that "Firearms Registration".

Once "Firearms Registration" is accomplished, enforcement of "Universal Background Checks" becomes possible (and trivially easy). Without "Firearms Registration", enforcement of "Universal Background Checks" is impossible.

They know this.

The Anti-Firearms Rights movement is not going to spend the time, money, and political capital in pushing "Closing The Gunshow Loophole" legislation without plans for follow-up legislation to facilitate enforcement.

So, I would suggest that the somewhat innocuous sounding phrase "Closing The Gunshow Loophole" is simply code-speak for "Universal Firearms Registration".

Those familiar with the history of firearms registration during the 20th century know what that means.


TOPICS: Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; guns; gunshowloophole; registration; secondamendment

1 posted on 02/05/2013 9:55:52 AM PST by misanthrope
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To: misanthrope

To liberals, the ‘gun show loophole’ is the front entrance.


2 posted on 02/05/2013 10:09:09 AM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: NFHale; Gilbo_3; misanthrope

Ping!


3 posted on 02/05/2013 10:10:58 AM PST by sickoflibs (Losing to Dems and Obama is not a principle! Its just losing.)
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To: misanthrope

Basically, they want to make it ILLEGAL for me to sell a gun I own to you, without doing a background check. Now, just HOW is a private citizen to conduct a background check?

This will be a BOON to gun store owners, since we would not be able to sell our weapons any longer.


4 posted on 02/05/2013 10:14:42 AM PST by RoadieFan
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To: misanthrope
Related legislation to write your congress-critter about:

H.R. 34: Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2013. Sponsor: Rep Rush, Bobby L., Referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, And Investigations.
H.R. 117: Handgun Licensing and Registration Act of 2013. Sponsor: Rep Holt, Rush, Referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, And Investigations.
H.R. 137: Fix Gun Checks Act of 2013. Sponsor: Rep McCarthy, Carolyn, Referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, And Investigations.
H.R. 141: Gun Show Loophole Closing Act of 2013. Sponsor: Rep McCarthy, Carolyn, Referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, Homeland Security, And Investigations.
S.22: A bill to establish background check procedures for gun shows. Sponsor: Sen Lautenberg, Frank R. Referred to the Senate Judiciary committee

5 posted on 02/05/2013 10:14:55 AM PST by grobdriver (Vivere liberi aut mori)
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To: misanthrope

You make some excellent points in connecting the dots here.

Keep in mind that Universal background check are Unconstitutional for three reasons:

1). They are outside the purview of the Federal government’s Constitutionally enumerated powers.
[How can a sale between friends in one state be ‘interstate commerce’?

2). They are an unconstitutional prior restraint on 2nd amendment.

[They are imposing a penalty and a punishment before you can exercise a God-given and Constitutionally affirmed right]

3). AND They are an Infringement on the right of the People to keep and bear arms.

Bottom line: Registration is the Holy grail for the gun grabbers – once they have lists of who has guns, they will come up with a sorts of nefarious schemes to exploit those lists – everything for taxing guns to harassing people for how they are stored. Who know what kinds of abuse that will entail?

I would suggest that we simply use our own terms for this discussion – as you suggested, instead of using those innocuous sounding phrases, we use your term: “Universal Firearms Registration”

The Gun Control Debate
http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/heller-gun-control-debate.htm


6 posted on 02/05/2013 10:19:14 AM PST by StaffiT (Obama is the name - Downgrading the country is his Game)
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To: misanthrope

Universal background checks now, then full registration after the next mass shooting, preferably at a grade-school.


7 posted on 02/05/2013 10:20:55 AM PST by umgud
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To: misanthrope

And for those of us who are less knowledgeable but fiercly support the Second Amendment, can you give me/us a simple way to counteract the liberals’ ‘Background checks are not even DONE at gun shows’? Thanks.


8 posted on 02/05/2013 10:21:22 AM PST by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: misanthrope
So, it should be understood that when an anti-gun rights activist refers to "Closing The Gunshow Loophole", it is simply code-speak for what is more accurately referred to as "Universal Background Checks".



Better idea...

The Freedom "Loophole."


9 posted on 02/05/2013 10:23:13 AM PST by TLI ( ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA)
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To: misanthrope

You are, of course, correct. The left is using the most deceptive language possible to try to get “back-door” gun registration.

I’ve suggested turning the tables on them. They want background NICs checks on everyone? Fine, let’s reform the system. There is no reason in the world for a background check to tie back to any particular firearm — no justification at all to have the serial number(s) recorded in any way...including on a 4473.

Why not at least take a jab at playing their game? Take ‘em at face value, and then try to walk ‘em back. At least for once they would be on the defensive.


10 posted on 02/05/2013 10:24:25 AM PST by absalom01 (You should do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, and you should never wish to do less.)
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To: misanthrope

When are we going to get (1st Amend) Background Checks on MSM word processors?

How many people have they gotten killed with their lying crap?


11 posted on 02/05/2013 10:24:40 AM PST by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: misanthrope

The gun show loophole is actually a “private seller loophole.”


12 posted on 02/05/2013 10:24:46 AM PST by GSWarrior (Click HERE to read entire tagline.)
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To: StaffiT

Thanks for the bump and the kind words.


13 posted on 02/05/2013 10:27:22 AM PST by misanthrope ("...Everybody look what's goin' down.")
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To: misanthrope

Good info. Thanks!


14 posted on 02/05/2013 10:27:39 AM PST by veracious
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To: GSWarrior

it is actually the private property loophole.

remember this also leave a sales tax due trail.


15 posted on 02/05/2013 10:33:54 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: bboop
Well, the fact of the matter is that the VAST majority of firearms bought at any gun show are sold by federally licensed firearms dealers (AKA "FFL"). Every single one of those transactions involves a NICS background check.

Only private transactions between individuals involving (probably) a single firearm owned by the seller are exempt from the NICS requirement. These sales represent a tiny minority of transactions at a gun show.

16 posted on 02/05/2013 10:35:27 AM PST by misanthrope ("...Everybody look what's goin' down.")
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To: misanthrope

Since there isn’t a loophole to start with but an intentional demonizing of individuals’ rights to sell guns to one another peacefully, one can ONLY conclude they are actually working to make all private gun sales illegal unless they have gone through a background check, presumbably through NICS.

Now we hear that “we don’t want to create a gun registry of ‘bad people’ having guns,” “we want to create a registry of law-abiding citizens.”

Well, in early 1930s Germany, Hitler compiled lists of Jews, law-abiding Jews (he’d already committed the ones who fit some miscreant category to prison or mental institutions). So we might have a REGISTRY of law-abiding Americans. Just what in the f@ck is the purpose of that? WTF?

I’ll tell you. Universal Checks (what they want with closing their frigging ‘gun show loophole) are REGISTRATION. And, REGISTRATION is CONFISCATION yet executed. It would only take another Newtown, which they could actually foment, and off they go - a disarmed law-abiding America, while the Holder’s people, Mexico’s People, Nigeria’s People, Allah’s people disregard it with impugnity. Nice times ahead.


17 posted on 02/05/2013 10:35:42 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: misanthrope

An unconstitutional law is not a law.


18 posted on 02/05/2013 10:35:47 AM PST by isthisnickcool (Sharia? No thanks!)
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To: sickoflibs; Gilbo_3; misanthrope

“Gun Show Loophole”

Libspeak for private sales. Long-arm (rifle and shotgun) transfers between citizens.

They seem to think (or like to perpetuate the idea) that that’s the way gun shows operate; it isn’t. Dealers selling firearms are required to do background checks through the NICS and PICS (in PA’s case) systems.

Maybe son private sales happen, but once again, very, very few crimes have happened with legally-purchased firearms.

Handguns - ALL handguns in PA - must go through the FFL transfer system.

Except of course the ones that are stolen out of people’s homes, or disappear from the police evidence lockers (you know, the “misplaced” ones)... which of course are the majority of those actually used in crime.

Basically they want a database of EVERY SINGLE legally-owned firearm in the country, and if course we all know WHY.

It must gall Libs every single day and moment of their lives to know that somewhere, some body is actually FREE and enjoying their life and not complying with their little acts of daily fascism and subversion.


19 posted on 02/05/2013 10:36:46 AM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: bboop

Simple. The response is: that is a lie.

I have never purchased a gun at a gun show without some form of background check. Albeit it is fast when you have a ccl.


20 posted on 02/05/2013 10:41:07 AM PST by mnehring
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To: NFHale; Gilbo_3; misanthrope
RE :”It must gall Libs every single day and moment of their lives to know that somewhere, some body is actually FREE and enjoying their life and not complying with their little acts of daily fascism and subversion.”

Just to play devils-U-know-what for fun, libs would reply that freedom comes from woman's reproductive choices, like employer supplied birth control and contraception. There is no amendment covering those?

Seems in the abstract Universal Background checks are wildly popular, polling ~ 85% even very high with Rs and NRA members.

But once the senate Dems put a bill out it will be easy to tear down as being unenforcible or over-reaching.

21 posted on 02/05/2013 10:44:58 AM PST by sickoflibs (Losing to Dems and Obama is not a principle! Its just losing.)
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To: mnehring

Don’t forget that the oppressives like to LIE with numbers.

Consider that your average gun show will have a certain percentage of non-FFL vendors selling accessories like holsters, ammo, gun cases, scopes, reloading supplies, magazines, T-shirts, beef jerky (yum!) And other non-firearm items.

Clearly those transactions shouldn’t fall under Feral purview, but the Lying Leftists will include those sales to boost the number of “private” sales…


22 posted on 02/05/2013 10:49:58 AM PST by StaffiT (Obama is the name - Downgrading the country is his Game)
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To: misanthrope
Individuals wishing to trade a firearm privately will simply do so knowing that they preserve their anonymity, the firearm being traded preserves it's non-trackable status, and there are no possible legal ramifications (short of being caught by the authorities in the act of conducting the transaction).

The fear of being caught acts as a deterrence to many types of crimes.

If your firearm has a 4473 from a purchase and you sell it to someone privately while violating this law, then you can be found out if the gun is later used in a crime.

Or course, if you have a gun that has no 4473, then you are right that there would be no paper trail to say that you bought it and not the average Joe you sold it to.

I can imagine the gov't running stings on people to try to catch illegal sales. Registration is not the only way to enforce this law.

23 posted on 02/05/2013 10:50:12 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: misanthrope

It is worse than you think:

Grandpa is on this last legs. Grandma calls in the families and hands out his guns to them as Grandpa wanted. Then they go down to the gun shop and have them transfered and registered by a gun dealer.

Universal registration of guns. Next confiscation.


24 posted on 02/05/2013 10:54:08 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: misanthrope

It is worse than you think:

Grandpa is on this last legs. Grandma calls in the families and hands out his guns to them as Grandpa wanted. Then they go down to the gun shop and have them transfered and registered by a gun dealer.

Universal registration of guns. Next confiscation.


25 posted on 02/05/2013 10:54:24 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: misanthrope

The whole argument about tracking stolen guns is specious. When you report stolen guns it is entered in a database at the NCIC. Tracking all guns would be duplication of effort and is not needed.


26 posted on 02/05/2013 11:00:01 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: misanthrope

“Universal Background Check”

My response has always been:

“When you figure out a way to ensure drug lords and gang bangers conduct background checks, before arming new recruits, come talk to me.”

“Until then, leave me alone!”


27 posted on 02/05/2013 11:27:24 AM PST by G Larry (Which of Obama's policies do you think I'd support if he were white?)
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To: misanthrope

Correct. And the value of weapons that cannot be traced like stolen weapons that come off of the city, county, state, and/or fed lists that legal gun owners reported the theft to plus the SN is worthless in most states as how many people want to contact the city, county etc. every damn year or whatever? I had a 38 cal.plus P Taurus N65 revolver stolen over 14 years ago. I immediately reported it stolen to incluse model number, stainless, and SN. The pistol was only kept on the stolen weapons list of a major US city for a year. I was shocked. So, the criminals win again. Make no mistake that some con artist will make big money selling weapons like that stolen pistol.


28 posted on 02/05/2013 11:29:00 AM PST by Lumper20 (`)
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To: buffaloguy

What if you simply lose them?


29 posted on 02/05/2013 11:35:11 AM PST by StaffiT (Obama is the name - Downgrading the country is his Game)
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To: RoadieFan

“This will be a BOON to gun store owners, since we would not be able to sell our weapons any longer.”

Sure. If this passes, any and all private sales and transfers of ownership such as gifts and inheritance’s will have to be processed through a FFL owner. It won’t take these people to figure out that there’s lot s of easy money to be made out of this. Example; if someone owns ten guns of various types and the transfer process fee is lets say $100 per gun that would cost whoever should inherit them $1,000 to transfer ownership. Failure to o this would mean that these guns would have to be relinquished to the government of course. It would take a couple of generations to cycle all of the guns in private hands through this processs but it would eventually mean that every gun would be listed in the government data base.


30 posted on 02/05/2013 11:35:48 AM PST by snoringbear (E.oGovernment is the Pimp,)
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To: GSWarrior
The gun show loophole is actually a “private seller loophole.”

First of all, I own guns. Secondly, I am against gun registration. But, I was recently at a large gun show (where I actually bought an AR-15 from a private seller) and saw something that made me start to reconsider my thinking on background checks: there were two young gang-member-type thugs looking seriously at a 50-cal rifle.

Of course, I don't think many of us would object to universal background checks if we knew 100% for sure that would be the extent of the controls. But, unfortunately, this administration has demonstrated that they cannot be trusted, and that they would like to take all guns away from everyone, except, of course, those they deem worthy. And, I have it on good authority that those background checks do go into a database, which is what we were all afraid would occur. But, the idea of gang members owning a 50-cal rifle also concerns me.

Here is my conclusion: Thugs and criminals will always be able to get guns - gun control really only affects law-abiding citizens. Starting down the slippery slope of universal background checks and gun registration can never, based on our experience, be undone. So I'm willing to sacrifice the ability of thugs to buy 50-cal rifles at a gun show for my right to legally own firearms.

31 posted on 02/05/2013 11:38:10 AM PST by jda ("Righteousness exalts a nation . . .")
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To: misanthrope

I have not been to a gun show since 1991, but; it was as you stated. A full check was run on anyone who bought from any dealer with a booth/setup. We had background checks that took up to 15 days then.I would not buy a weapon unless it was a long time friend or a FFL dealer.


32 posted on 02/05/2013 11:40:46 AM PST by Lumper20 (`)
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To: jda

They may not have been looking to buy it, but to follow the owner home and steal it later.


33 posted on 02/05/2013 11:57:07 AM PST by Pecos (If more sane people carried guns, fewer crazies would get off a second shot.)
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To: sickoflibs

....like employer supplied birth control and contraception....”

They certainly have a right to not get pregnant in the first place - that’s real easy to accomplish. But they DON’T have any right whatsoever to demand that someone else pay for the poor choices they make.

As for background checks, IF - and that’s a BIG IF - the Rs do a good job of blocking it and explaining it to the country, it’s dead on arrival.

Like I said before - I have zero faith in anything these assclowns do anymore. They cower and cave in like scared little girls. And the Dems just sit there grinning.


34 posted on 02/05/2013 12:11:12 PM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: bboop
‘Background checks are not even DONE at gun shows’?

Neither are used car sales between private parties, but that doesn't stop private individuals from buying or selling used cars, even though 55,000 are killed annually in car accidents each year, and several hundred thousands (perhaps more) are injured to one extent or the other. So using the libturd logic, let's ban all used car sales unless you go to an authorized car dealer, and have the car dealer call into a universal background check, before the used car can be sold.

BTW, 55,000 killed annually in car accidents, many of them being the result of drinking & driving. According to liberal logic, it sounds like liberals should be lobbying to ban automobiles & drinking, or cut the speeds down to 10 mph or less. See how well that would sit with the libturds!

35 posted on 02/05/2013 12:19:06 PM PST by rcrngroup
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To: Lumper20
I go to local gunshows all the time. I also have sold in rivate sale an occasional gun. Anyone who pays the fee to the event organizer can set up a table and sell as a private citizen with no background check presently required. People wandering around at the shows sell to each other and to the booths, without background checks of any kind. People trade guns with each other at shows (the January gunshow, I traded the upper of an AR15 I built, for a new Franchi 12 gauge inertia driven shotgun) with all the trimmings. ONLY the FFL sellers are required to do the background check for their sales at gunshows. The following is ONE reason somethig should be done to regulate sales at gunshows ... I'm giving you a first-hand eyewitness account from a gunshow two years ago which I attended:

I watch an Hispanic speaking man walking around in the show with another man who was translating for him. The Hispanic speaking guy was buying rifles and pistols (no revolvers that I saw) from individuals and they would walk those purchases out to a van where another man sat in the back and oiled them up. Then they would go back in and mill around, looking for more to purchase. NOTHING illegal was occurring in these transactions, as far as I know. At the very least, ANY sale done inside the event confines or deemed due to the show attraction/gathering event should have to be run through a competent FFL dealer (for a nominal fee as is already collected) so a background is done on the purchasers.

Caveat: the requirement for the checks should terminate outside of event connections, period. The government should not have the right to regulate the private transfer (with or without money involved) of properties. BUT a publicly advertised gunshow is a public event and can be regulated in some fashion, addressed via votes over legislation/legislators. And we are long past due to revolve many of the scum calling themselves 'elected representatives'.


36 posted on 02/05/2013 12:23:11 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: RoadieFan

***since we would not be able to sell our weapons any longer.***

Wanna bet? You have a firearm and a neighbor wants to trade a firearm and cash for it.

You make the trade.

You can do the same with knives, cattle, garage sales, trucks, tractors, lawn mowers, snow blowers, weed eaters.

It is your property and you can give it away if you want to as the FEDS have no list of what you own, if you have been smart about how to buy.


37 posted on 02/05/2013 12:29:41 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name! See new paintings!)
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To: RoadieFan
“This will be a BOON to gun store owners, since we would not be able to sell our weapons any longer.”

I've read the way the govn. bill in the senate and house reads, and to make a private gun sale, you would have to go to a gun dealer to do the background check and paperwork and pay the gun dealer for doing that. If you didn't do that, the sale would be illegal, however, right now, no one could trace the gun so you would probably be safe in doing a private sale.

However, when they get the serial numbers of our guns by whatever means resulting in registration, they could trace your gun and find out you illegally sold it - then, they have you and it's a big fine and jail.

The second amendment reads, “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

It is definitely infringement when they screw with your buying or selling guns or limiting magazines or limiting the amount of ammo you buy and certainly cutting off web purchases of guns or ammo is infringement. Plus, British pos Piers Morgan needs to go to any country where people can't have guns - then he would be happy. He doesn't like our having guns, so why doesn't he get the hell out of here and go to a “safe” country where no one can have them.

THIS MORNING, CHEAPER THAN DIRT HAS 22 LR CCI HOLLOW POINTS - BOXES OF 100. IF YOU NEED THOSE, GO RIGHT NOW AND SEE IF THEY STILL HAVE SOME. I WOULD BET THEY WILL BE OUT SOMETIME TODAY. IT'S THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE HAD THEM IN AT LEAST TWO MONTHS - THEY ARE IN STOCK.

38 posted on 02/05/2013 12:35:49 PM PST by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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To: misanthrope

SOOO.Buy any weapons you might want in the coming months and then have a boating accident just in case the pubbies cave on background checks( which they probably will do) using ID numbers.


39 posted on 02/05/2013 12:38:45 PM PST by Renegade
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To: misanthrope

I remember when applying for an FFL was as easy as getting an M1 Garand from CMP.


40 posted on 02/05/2013 1:51:00 PM PST by Dogbert41
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To: bboop

The way I usually explain it is that there is no actual loop hole. It’s a bait and switch term.

If the law requires you to do a background check prior to selling a firearm, you still have to do it if selling at a gun show. (This mostly applies to licensed dealers.)

If the law does not require you to do a background prior to selling a firearm, then the fact that you are selling at a gun show does not change the requirement, and you still do not have to perform a background check to sell the firearm. (This mostly applies to private citizens.)

A gun show is simply a Constitutionally protected natural right to assemble. The place where a transaction is made doesn’t change the law.

Considering that private citizens are not allowed access to the NICS checks, “closing the gun show loophole” is code for banning private sales at gun shows (or perhaps banning private gun sales all together).


41 posted on 02/05/2013 2:33:33 PM PST by OA5599
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To: MHGinTN

Thanks for the updated INFO. I am concerned about what you saw.


42 posted on 02/05/2013 3:21:27 PM PST by Lumper20 (`)
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To: misanthrope

“Universal Background Checks”. A misnomer if there ever was one, as that implies that even the criminal element will submit to a background check.

Funny how something is a “loophole” only when it interferes with the liberals’ agenda.


43 posted on 02/05/2013 4:34:44 PM PST by Oatka (This is America. Assimilate or evaporate.)
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Ping


44 posted on 02/06/2013 12:20:06 AM PST by misanthrope ("...Everybody look what's goin' down.")
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To: OA5599

Thank you. I will keep that in mind for future arguments.


45 posted on 02/06/2013 12:24:44 PM PST by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: rcrngroup

Thanks. I like to be well-armed (logically, with facts) when I go up against a gun-hater.


46 posted on 02/06/2013 12:27:47 PM PST by bboop (does not suffer fools gladly)
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To: NFHale

Why is the SERIAL NUMBER and MODEL NUMBER needed for a background check? It seems to me that you should ONLY check the person and be done with it. Nothing is gained with serial and model numbers, UNLESS someone is trying to build up a database for later confiscation?
(which our government denies they want to do)


47 posted on 02/06/2013 2:42:05 PM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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