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Revolutionary War vs. Civil War
Vanity

Posted on 04/09/2013 7:32:14 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce

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I really value the collective wisdom of this group. As we approach what appears to be a societal divide, I have been thinking about both the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. Both were fought by people who had fewer resources than their opponent. If I were to boil down their concerns, I would say that the concerns of the Revolutionary War were taxation without representation, and that the concerns of the Civil War were to maintain current institutions and traditions. Both involved economics, and social issues. The Revolutionary War succeeded against incredible odds, with the people involved fighting against their families who chose the other side. Ditto the Civil War, except the Confederacy lost and suffered for it.

I've been mulling over the nature of our current conflict and whether, if it reaches the point of war, it will be more like the Revolutionary War or more like the Civil War.

Does anyone care to chip in with some opinions? I have to go to bed soon, so will only be able to participate for about an hour, but I am REALLY interested in a compare and contrast between our present situation and those two conflicts. I know there are people here who hae studied both conflicts seriously, and might be able to provide some insight.

Thanks!

1 posted on 04/09/2013 7:32:14 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

All you really know is that it will be an utter disaster period.


2 posted on 04/09/2013 7:36:35 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

It wouldn’t be a CW.

The left doesn’t have the balls to fight.

My dad shot at his government killing several ( Hungary ‘57 ) to be free and says socialists are cowards.


3 posted on 04/09/2013 7:36:52 PM PDT by NoLibZone (A nation's electoral process is as free and fair as its press.)
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To: cripplecreek

Like nuclear war without the nukes... hide away and ride it out.


4 posted on 04/09/2013 7:38:41 PM PDT by Third Person (Welcome to Gaymerica.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

I don’t see other countries getting involved to “help”, so no, I don’t think it would be comparable to the Revolutionary War. The enemy would literally be your family members, your neighbors, and you coworkers, so it would literally be another Civil War.


5 posted on 04/09/2013 7:38:58 PM PDT by gop4lyf (Are we no longer in that awkward time? Or is it still too early?)
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To: NoLibZone
...socialists are cowards.

Of course they are, which is why they're subverting our own institutions to disarm, then kill us. I think most conservatives have felt this in their bones for a very long time.

My hat's off to your dad. That's a real patriot.

6 posted on 04/09/2013 7:50:11 PM PDT by Windflier (To anger a conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Neither at first, I think. In the Revolution the rebels were fighting against a colonial power who had enemies that had a vested interest in a British setback, and were willing to aid them, even to the point of going to war themselves. At present it is not in my opinion likely any country would want to get involved in an internal squabble in the US- and such aid might not be accepted if offered (Neither side would be likely to accept aid from North Korea, for example.) In the Civil War the rebels were set aside by geography. We are more divided along ideology and issues than by states, although the South and some of the West would be more likely to make common cause.

If history is any teacher, it would probably more resemble something like Bosnia in the 1990s, or perhaps some of the Central Asian brawls right after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Or, from our own history, Bleeding Kansas just before the Civil War. But, one of the telltale signs the republic is fracturing hasn’t appeared yet- when the legislators start physically assaulting each other. Right before the end of Rome’s republic, the Roman senators beat Tiberius Gracchus to death, and right before our own Civil War, Senator Charles Sumner was beaten by Representative Preston Brooks. Of course, if the whole Congress has gone treasonous this sign won’t be there. But there might be yet a place for politics to work before everything becomes a set of strategic and tactical problems.


7 posted on 04/09/2013 7:52:03 PM PDT by GenXteacher (You have chosen dishonor to avoid war; you shall have war also.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

I believe it is a Revolutionary War, with people vs the government; not a Civil War, with one group against another.


8 posted on 04/09/2013 7:52:33 PM PDT by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: cripplecreek

Well, I’m not so sure. In both conflicts there were people who managed to survive, and some (probably those in out of the way places) that might have hardly been aware of the conflict. History only records the heroic deeds, the shocking incidents, the tragedies and triumphs. Ordinary people, those not involved in politics or statesmanship, have always managed to survive somehow. It’s very difficult to determine from historical records just exactly what the impact of these events was on ordinary people.


9 posted on 04/09/2013 7:52:40 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

In those cases the people were used to living without electricity, running water, medicine, grocery stores etc.


10 posted on 04/09/2013 7:55:18 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: NoLibZone

I think there are two things that inspire people to fight. The first is the fear that something will be taken away from them that they value. The second is that they will obtain something they want (the spoils of war). I think there are plenty of people out there today who seem “weak” who would find a lot of energy if they thought they were going to be able to take some of that stuff from the “rich” people they feel have oppressed them all their lives. There’s a lot of anger out there.....I don’t think we should discount how that might play out.


11 posted on 04/09/2013 7:55:24 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

It would be neither, because its a war against Communism.

The Communist or Socialism War.

Or the War of the Second Amendment.

Either way the bad guys are those that are willing to defend Communism.


12 posted on 04/09/2013 7:56:50 PM PDT by Spartan302
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To: Duchess47

I’m not so sure. I think there are some people who identify so closely with the current government that they see any attack against it as an attack against themselves.


13 posted on 04/09/2013 7:58:04 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce
What starts as a Rev War would soon become a Civil War because the blacks would go nuts in defense of their brotha in the White Hut. A Civil War would draw out public and federal response teams where they themselves would become targets by all sides. Cops will be overwhelmed and will head for the hills. Firefighters will stay home and half the country will be ablaze. It's a bloodbath, lose/lose scenario with no rhyme or reason as to who survives and who doesn't. Think massive collateral damage of the human kind. I see mutiny at every turn because our military has been poisoned by those seeking to protect it's government, not it's people; No different than the cops!

The other FReeper here is right. Hide out and wait for the dust to settle if that's possible. Drones or no drones, that is the question. There will be so much division in our military it's anyone's guess as to how that will transpire.

14 posted on 04/09/2013 7:59:18 PM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Yes, but I don’t think they will have the stomach for a fight. They will turn in relatives, friends, neighbors though. That’s just based on the ones I know.


15 posted on 04/09/2013 8:00:34 PM PDT by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

War is war. Devastating to all sides, indiscriminate in death. The best and worst human traits are seen in war.
What would it be like? Think Kosovo...Sarajevo...at its worst. Neighbor killing neighbor, families slaughtered, ethnic and political cleansing. Millions of refugees fleeing to safer areas, starvation, disease, complete breakdown of American society.


16 posted on 04/09/2013 8:02:36 PM PDT by jim-x (9/11/2001 - Never forget, Never forgive.)
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To: GeorgeWashingtonsGhost

That scenario seems a little excessive to me. I live in a very rural area in Oklahoma, with a high population of poor tribal members. Many people in my area raise animals, heat with wood, and are accustomed to doing without electricity and other power (sometimes just because they’ve spent all their money at the casino). If the grid went down, we would all do just fine.

There are family rivalries, and people who hate their neighbor’s guts, but these are also people who understand that survival requires cooperation. I don’t see many people running amok, and those who do would be dealt with (everyone here is HEAVILY armed, and everyone knows it).

So I don’t think we would have the same scenario here as someone who lives in a place like Los Angeles, or Dallas.


17 posted on 04/09/2013 8:04:13 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Both wars were about the same thing all wars are about: the money and the freedom. Its all about the money and the freedom. It is about the God given entitlement to the pursuit of wealth and freedom.

At the moment the Obamunists want to take all the money, and to remove all the freedom. In return they will reap, and reap, the consequences.


18 posted on 04/09/2013 8:06:01 PM PDT by FlyingEagle
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To: FlyingEagle

I agree completely. It is ALWAYS about the money (power) and the freedom. I will always choose freedom - there’s nothing you could give me to compensate for its loss.


19 posted on 04/09/2013 8:08:33 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Neither as it will not have clear borders. It,will likely be asymmetric for,most of the duration until the military steps in to end it.


20 posted on 04/09/2013 8:10:26 PM PDT by WriteOn (Truth)
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To: NoLibZone

There were Hungarian families who lived in our neighborhood in ‘57. I can remember the uprising ( barely). First, they were all very happy, then sad when the uprising was put down. I played chess often with Dr. Josa. Never beat him, though. They were wonderful, warm people and great Americans!


21 posted on 04/09/2013 8:10:39 PM PDT by The_Media_never_lie (Actually, they lie when it suits them! The crooked MS media must be defeated any way it can be done!)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

IMHO We are no longer a people with a common bond like during the Revolutionary War vs England nor North vs South.

We are now fragmented into:

Patriots vs Progs,
Workers vs Takers,
gay vs straight,
Black vs White vs Mexican,
GOP vs Dem vs TEA Party,
Muslim vs Christian,
Legal vs Illegal,
LEO vs citizens,
Gov’t vs Vets,
Unions vs Private Business,
Cats vs Dogs.....

Divide and conquer is in play. Back in the days of the Revolution and Civil Wars it wasn’t so complex. Do what your heart tells you is right, I guess.


22 posted on 04/09/2013 8:11:19 PM PDT by JouleZ (You are the company you keep.)
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To: jim-x

Neither. Likely start as an armed insurrection and quickly collapse into anarchy. The states rights /lobby would finally get their wish as infighting at the federal level will distract the feds from the welfare state.. this will leave the states to try to hold things together. So we will see the quick collapse of the liberal states or they will become like little dictatorships. High tail yourself to a solid conservative state. Put your money in their local banks for now and if worse comes to worse and there is nothing worth fighting for because of the chaos just move to another country. Be sure to have your passpoert ready and maybe start making regular trips to your select destination. Will make it easier to stay when the time comes.


23 posted on 04/09/2013 8:14:35 PM PDT by Deathtomarxists (collapse death heartburn heartache dingdongs diaherea)
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To: WriteOn

Could you explain what you mean by asymetrical? If you look at history, would-be rulers have always concentrated on obtaining the loyalty of the military because, obviously, they are the ones who can beat the rest of us into submission. I don’t think we are at the point where our military will support a tyrant against the people. The current method seems to be to paint the enemy as racist bigots who are intolerant and greedy, but that meme just doesn’t seem to have the energy to foment an armed encounter. Yet. But maybe it could in a generation or two. Who knows?


24 posted on 04/09/2013 8:17:50 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: JouleZ

That is a very good point. The less we have in common, the more likely we are to see the other as an enemy, or as a possible source of either threats or spoils.


25 posted on 04/09/2013 8:20:25 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

The Confederate states suffered far less as part of the USA than they would have as an independent nation.


26 posted on 04/09/2013 8:21:13 PM PDT by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: NoLibZone

The socialists here are smart. They have used Orwell’s 1984 as a blueprint.

They are masters at balkanization and divide and conquer, using the alinsky methods, the dialectic and the delphi technique.

They blame everyone else for their own unexpected and deliberately-created problems. Their own people, they point away from themselves, and towards people and groups they want targeted.

This is how it will play out. They will get their malleable splinter groups fired up into frenzies and let them riot and point them towards those they want taken out.


27 posted on 04/09/2013 8:22:59 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Deathtomarxists

Already in a solid conservative state. You suggest putting your money in local banks. Have you ever had a serious conversation with a rural Oklahoma banker. LOL! You would see your money sooner (sorry about the pun) if you gave it to Obama himself.


28 posted on 04/09/2013 8:23:43 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Freedom, life, marriage: take them away, its war.


29 posted on 04/09/2013 8:25:43 PM PDT by FlyingEagle
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To: allmendream

Uh oh. Are you trying to rile up Southerners?


30 posted on 04/09/2013 8:25:52 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

CWII will not be like CWI, with set-piece battles like Gettysburg. It will be more like the civil war going on right now in Syria or the recent one in Libya, and it could involve numerous factions fighting one another.


31 posted on 04/09/2013 8:26:13 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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To: JouleZ

there were lots of groups back then. the difference is most people there were christians (flawed ideas or not) and most people poor or rich still had morals and concepts of personal honor. There were a lot of capital crimes for what we’d think of as relatively minor offenses today. People didn’t take murder or heinous actions so lightly as they do today. the loss of christian identity and strength, plus all the additional balkanization occuring across multiple groups here, make it a totally different experience. Firepower available and a greater willingness overall of people to do horrible things to others for little or no real reason, will make it that much worse.


32 posted on 04/09/2013 8:29:11 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Fiji Hill

bosnia, serbia. south africa.


33 posted on 04/09/2013 8:29:47 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

which is why homosexuals in the military is an incredibly dangerous thing.


34 posted on 04/09/2013 8:30:50 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I can neither confirm or deny that; even if I could, I couldn't - it's classified.)
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To: Fiji Hill

This seems like a reasonable scenario. But do you think there are factions out there NOW who are seriously enough committed to either protecting their way of life or taking stuff from other people to start KILLING their neighbors?

It is really difficult for me to wrap my head around the idea that people will do this to each other, although I know that it happens all the time and has happened throughout history. We’ve just grown up in a little bubble where it hasn’t happened near us. I don’t think we can count on that continuing in the future, but it’s difficult for me to envision just exactly how such a thing could happen.


35 posted on 04/09/2013 8:31:32 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

The Revolution was to replace a government. The Civil War was a group wanting to walk away and found another government. I hope that’s what will happen here.


36 posted on 04/09/2013 8:34:41 PM PDT by VerySadAmerican
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

“...I would say that the concerns of the Revolutionary War were taxation without representation...”

My understanding was that the one thing that triggered the Revolutionary War more than any other was the British attempt to confiscate guns. That will be the one thing that will trigger a RWII. This will not be a war against neighbor. This will be a war against tyranny. The 2nd Amendment is affirmation of a God given right, it does not grant that right. We have that right with or w/o the 2nd Amendment.

“The American Revolution against British Gun Control”
By David B. Kopel*

http://www.davekopel.org/2A/LawRev/american-revolution-against-british-gun-control.html

This Article reviews the British gun control program that precipitated the American Revolution: the 1774 import ban on firearms and gunpowder; the 1774-75 confiscations of firearms and gunpowder; and the use of violence to effectuate the confiscations. It was these events that changed a situation of political tension into a shooting war. Each of these British abuses provides insights into the scope of the modern Second Amendment.

Watch what is happening now...similar abuses by the government at both the blue state and federal level. Prayers needed now...it is a time for Faith - and Works.


37 posted on 04/09/2013 8:35:09 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea (I am a Tea Party descendant...steeped in the Constitutional Republic given to us by the Founders.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

To continue. Many people today are frustrated that we don’t have a leader. But the Confederacy had a leader that inspired an entire section of the country to declare war and fight for their cause and make huge sacrifices to support an army and a war, and yet they LOST.

I guess I see that possibility in the near future, and it depresses me. That doesn’t mean that I won’t fight for what is right. But I think we need to seriously consider the cost: just because your cause is just and you believe in it, does not mean you will prevail.


38 posted on 04/09/2013 8:40:09 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce
"will be more like the Revolutionary War or more like the Civil War"

It depends on whether the good guys win.

39 posted on 04/09/2013 8:48:26 PM PDT by UnwashedPeasant
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To: UnwashedPeasant

LOL. Pretty much how I see it. Thank y’all for your insights. I must go to bed now, but will be checking back tomorrow to read any additional posts.


40 posted on 04/09/2013 8:53:23 PM PDT by PinkChampagneonIce
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Interesting discussion.

My tag line says what I think is already under way.


41 posted on 04/09/2013 8:58:58 PM PDT by llevrok (2013: The USA is in a Cold Civil War.)
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To: Third Person; GeorgeWashingtonsGhost

“Like nuclear war without the nukes... hide away and ride it out.” ( Third Person )

“Hide out and wait for the dust to settle if that’s possible.” ( GeorgeWashingtonsGhost )

You guys sound like free riders who’ll let others do the work and then reap the benefits for yourselves. The winner may not let you get away with that.


42 posted on 04/09/2013 9:06:34 PM PDT by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Probably more like Spain’s civil war in the 30s. Orwell’s ‘Homage To Catalonia’ is a good read. It soured him on socialism, for one thing.


43 posted on 04/09/2013 9:11:36 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce

Probably more like Spain’s civil war in the 30s. Orwell’s ‘Homage To Catalonia’ is a good read. It soured him on socialism, for one thing.


44 posted on 04/09/2013 9:14:20 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: PinkChampagneonIce; thackney; IBD editorial writer; WashingtonSource; SunkenCiv; cripplecreek; ...

B. Hussein Omama, formerly Barry Soetoro, and soon to be Tyrant Kim Un Hussein has run out of money.

40 cents on every dollar that he pays himself is borrowed.

In response, B. Hussein is currently trying to Nationalize the Medical and Medical Insurance segments of the USA.

For reasons beyond the grasp of the incompetent B. Hussein, the 2700 pages of the Obama’care’ Law, and the 20,000 pages of regulations, are not adequate for the ‘57’ States.

Hence, Tyrant Kim Un Hussein will need a more reliable income stream, and what better source than the Oil and Gas industry?

To achieve his goal of “FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,” Tyrant Kim Un Hussein will need a crisis.

“Kimmy The Incompetent” is hopeful that somehow the XL Pipeline will be that crisis.

Currently, Tyrant Kim Un Hussein is preparing to confiscate the guns owned by Americans they have used to deter or defeat Tyrants, foreign and domestic.

This confiscation has already begun in parts of New York State.

Hence, Civil War 2 has begun.

The Revolutionary War only had 20 % population approval, 20 % disapproval (the Royalists) and 60 % just wanted to be left alone.

That ratio is approximately what we have with our sorry two party system, with 20 % Republican, 20 % Democrat, 10 % Independent, and 50 % who are to disgusted to vote.

Perhaps only 60 % of the 20 % of us who admit to being Republicans, or a net 12% (=1 in 8) who want to CONSERVE the best of America.

_________

Your question is in the form of either/or.

In reality the answer will be “none of the above.”

The Financial Markets will end the rule of the Regime of Tyrant Kim Un Hussein in about the same amount of time that the Bursting of the Fannie Bubble took in 2008 and 2009.

The unpaid Labor Union Federal Employees will drain the food warehouses quickly across the ‘57’ States.

The Civil War 2 will be about survival for the initial phase that may last through several Winters.

As the natural market develops a standard barter system, the Survivor States will begin to hold Constitutional Conventions.

As the populations shift in or out of these Survivor States, the concept of States joining together as a Region will begin to attract like-minded people.

For example, The Soviet States of New England would be a mutually beneficial Region.

The Region of TEXAS would be the States that the XL Pipeline will run through.

As to the actual fighting, it will depend on the swiftness of a Military Coup to shut down the debt-creating departments of our sorry Federal Government.

For those pockets of true belief in the Karl Marx mantra: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,” the best combat description would be a guerilla war similar to that shown in the movie “Red Dawn” with Patrick Swayze.

For those areas where the people are true believers in Paul Harvey’s observation: “WHEN YOUR OUTGO EXCEEDS YOUR INCOME, YOUR UPKEEP WILL BE YOUR DOWNFALL,” we will hurry along the Liberals to their regions so that we can get back to work.


45 posted on 04/09/2013 9:50:40 PM PDT by Graewoulf (Traitor John Roberts' Commune-Style Obama'care' violates U.S. Constitution AND Anti-Trust Law.)
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To: cripplecreek

Both were about oppression! The name Civil only means it was fought on native soil against it’self! The Liberal left does not have the guts to stand up aganist real war! They compel people through laws and threats of imprisonment and imprisionment!
We talk about political prisoners! We have them on our own soil!
PPS arrested for killing a bear to save his life because his permit was out! Kids @ 7 years getting a felony! Who ever said a 7 year old could get a felony is out of his mind!
Yes it will be a Civil war if it comes to that! However the American people do not have the stomach for it nor the power now to turn back the Communist regime that has a grip on US yes US the American People that gave these scum to perpetrate crimes against our own! The Lemmings will march in line.
Real America does not exist! Your Life and your household is in the hands of imcompetent fools who only care about their interest at heart! If the liberal left does not own you, it soon will! What does one Freeper say? Keep your powder dry and lead and both stockpiled, it could happen! I gaurentee if a few states Suceeded, that gaurenteed your rights without question and you are a stand up citizen the population shift would flip the Country just like the idiot said Guam would flip!


46 posted on 04/09/2013 10:22:02 PM PDT by Conserev1 ("Still Clinging to my Bible and my Weapon")
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To: KrisKrinkle

The winners are the hole dwellers. Think ‘meerkat’ during a hurricane.


47 posted on 04/09/2013 11:32:11 PM PDT by GeorgeWashingtonsGhost
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To: PinkChampagneonIce
Secession does not mean war. Each state(s) has the power to put it to the people anytime they want to vote out of this bastard of a union. The Constitution is silent on the issue of secession, don't let the Free Republic Lincoln Butt Boys around here tell you differently.

"The withdrawal of a State from a league has no revolutionary or insurrectionary characteristic. The government of the State remains unchanged as to all internal affairs. It is only its external or confederate relations that are altered. To term this action of a Sovereign a 'rebellion' is a gross abuse of language."

"Obstacles may retard, but they cannot long prevent the progress of a movement sanctified by its justice, and sustained by a virtuous people ."

"Secession belongs to a different class of remedies. It is to be justified upon the basis that the States are Sovereign. There was a time when none denied it. I hope the time may come again, when a better comprehension of the theory of our Government, and the inalienable rights of the people of the States, will prevent any one from denying that each State is a Sovereign, and thus may reclaim the grants which it has made to any agent whomsoever."

"The contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered upon a new and enlarged arena." Jefferson Davis, address to the Mississippi legislature - 16 years after the wars end.

"The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form."

                              President Jeff Davis.

48 posted on 04/09/2013 11:42:19 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: allmendream
The Confederate states suffered far less as part of the USA than they would have as an independent nation.

Stupidest post EVER.

49 posted on 04/09/2013 11:47:14 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: KrisKrinkle

I’m a twenty five year small business owner, stuck in Connecticut, who employees twenty plus people. Don’t talk to me about being a free rider.

If and when something goes down, I plan on laying low.


50 posted on 04/10/2013 4:49:00 AM PDT by Third Person (Welcome to Gaymerica.)
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