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In Swat Valley, U.S. drone strikes radicalizing a new generation
CNN ^ | Mon April 15, 2013 | Nic Robertson,

Posted on 04/16/2013 7:55:17 PM PDT by RC one

The U.N. Special Rapporteur on drones, British lawyer Ben Emmerson, recently visited Pakistan and told me: "The consequence of drone strikes has been to radicalize an entirely new generation."

The New America Foundation estimates that in Pakistan, drones have killed between 1,953 and 3,279 people since 2004 -- and that between 18% and 23% of them were not militants. The nonmilitant casualty rate was down to about 10% in 2012, the group says.

A study by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates that since 2004, Pakistan has had 365 drone strikes that have killed between 2,536 and 3,577 people -- including 411 to 884 civilians.

U.S. President Barack Obama has maintained the strikes are necessary for defeating al Qaeda and the Taliban, but others including Emmerson have their doubts.

He said: "Through the use of drones you may win the immediate battle you are waging against this particular faction or that particular faction ... but you are losing the war in the longer term."

Emmerson's legal insights will form the basis of his report to the U.N., expected later this year. For the United States, at least, it could make for a damning read.

Emmerson says the drone strikes are illegal under international law as they violate Pakistan's sovereignty and fly in the face of Pakistani government calls for them to desist -- and that they also legalize al Qaeda's fight against America.

He said: "If it is lawful for the U.S. to drone al Qaeda associates whereever they find them, then it is also lawful for al Qaeda to target U.S. military or infrastructure where ever (militants) find them."

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Military/Veterans
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He said: "If it is lawful for the U.S. to drone al Qaeda associates whereever they find them, then it is also lawful for al Qaeda to target U.S. military or infrastructure where ever (militants) find them."
1 posted on 04/16/2013 7:55:17 PM PDT by RC one
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To: RC one

Is the Swat Valley ruled by the Sultan of Swat?


2 posted on 04/16/2013 7:56:59 PM PDT by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
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To: RC one
"but you are losing the war in the longer term."

Hell, the next REAL president will just nuke all those SOB`s into Camel dust.

3 posted on 04/16/2013 7:58:48 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.)
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To: RC one

Emerson is full of crap. “Lawful” is what countries decide. Terrorists are stateless actors, like pirates. What he is describing may be termed some sort of moral justification, but “moral” and “lawful” are not the same thing.


4 posted on 04/16/2013 7:59:00 PM PDT by Cboldt
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To: RC one

in all their talk aobut Boston, has anyone in the media asked whether it was done as revenge for one of Obama’s drone attacks?

Maybe someone’s son or wife was killed in one of them.

Instead of wondering if it was some tea party or rightwing guy maybe it might actually be a direct result of something Obama did.

I won’t be holding my breath,


5 posted on 04/16/2013 8:00:38 PM PDT by jeltz25
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To: RC one
Pakistan has had 365 drone strikes that have killed between 2,536 and 3,577 people -- including 411 to 884 civilians.

Let a cook break that down.

Being a cook, I'm going to round some numbers. Call it 4000 dead. and at 10 people and one of my brother's in law (the .9) for nice round 11 toasties per strike.

If you take the worst case of 884 civies, and divide that by the number of drone strikes. That's 2 and half 'civilians' per strike.

So we are at 8 and a half bad guys killed per stike, assuming (and I don't) that 'civilians' are good guys.

Not bad numbers. Continue as you were.

/johnny

6 posted on 04/16/2013 8:04:25 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

perhaps, but that’s also a lot of family members and people who could be out for revenge.

they take honor and blood feuds and revenge very seriously over there.

just something to think about


7 posted on 04/16/2013 8:05:56 PM PDT by jeltz25
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To: jeltz25
I have- multiple times. Obama just killed 10 children in eastern Afghanistan about a week before the marathon bombing. I think if someone was REPEATEDLY blowing up my women and children, I would be absolutely compelled to return the favor. I sure as hell wouldn't be compelled to surrender.
8 posted on 04/16/2013 8:07:37 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: RC one

Those folks have been “radicals” since time immemorial.


9 posted on 04/16/2013 8:08:14 PM PDT by lodi90
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To: bunkerhill7

sure he will.


10 posted on 04/16/2013 8:09:25 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: lodi90

But how many Afghans have come here to blow us up. And then compare that to the number of Saudis.

We are using drones in the wrong place.


11 posted on 04/16/2013 8:09:45 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: jeltz25
I take blood feuds pretty seriously, too.

Don't want no trouble, don't start none.

Or we'll finish it.

As I said, maintain course and heading.

I don't buy that wishy-washy crap. Sell it to someone else.

/johnny

12 posted on 04/16/2013 8:10:57 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: jeltz25

We take murdering our citizens who were not doing anything to those cretins very seriously too. That is why we try to kill as many as we can to keep them from doing it again.

If they are angry because we don’t just let them kill us at will, well they will just have to be angry. Maybe before too long they will die angry.


13 posted on 04/16/2013 8:11:53 PM PDT by yarddog (Truth, Justice, and what was once the American Way.)
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To: bunkerhill7

If we didn’t nuke anyone after 9/11, what makes you think they would do it now?


14 posted on 04/16/2013 8:14:30 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: JRandomFreeper

If there was an army in your country, you would take up arms against them. Just like they are.

We went into Afghanistan to defeat Al Qaeda. We accomplished that years ago.

We are nation building in a place that will never adopt our way of doing things. And if the only reason we are in their country is because they are shooting at us....that’s a dumb reason to be there.

.


15 posted on 04/16/2013 8:14:36 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: Vermont Lt
Don't start none, won't be none.

/johnny

16 posted on 04/16/2013 8:16:49 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: lodi90

drone strikes are ineffective at destroying the enemy or his resolve to fight. They create more enemies and they increase his resolve to fight. How would you feel if someone blew up your child or your nephew or your brother or sister and then called it acceptable collateral damage? Would you want to stop fighting or would an insatiable demonic blood rage well up inside of you? In WW2, we took the lives of women and children but we also took the enemies means of fighting and his will to fight and compelled him to surrender. obama is doing the opposite afaic.


17 posted on 04/16/2013 8:18:02 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: EEGator

By 2018 the Taliban will have stolen a couple of the Pakistani nukes.


18 posted on 04/16/2013 8:19:07 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.)
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To: RC one

Muzzies are always radicalized. It’s the way of Allah.


19 posted on 04/16/2013 8:19:47 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: bunkerhill7

And how are these retards going to use them?


20 posted on 04/16/2013 8:20:30 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: RC one
drone strikes are ineffective at destroying the enemy or his resolve to fight.

Sounds like it knocked the fight out of about 4000.

How are drones different than an F-16 with a pilot? They use the same weapons.

/johnny

21 posted on 04/16/2013 8:21:40 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Vermont Lt
"We are using drones in the wrong place."

There's some logical, not-out-of-the-box thinking.

22 posted on 04/16/2013 8:22:14 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: EEGator
And how are these retards going to use them?

Suppositories.

I've already planted a Nuke Howto for Idiots out there. ;)

/johnny

23 posted on 04/16/2013 8:23:43 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Paladin2
whatever. I'm just saying that there's a strong possibility that Boston is retaliation for last weeks drone strike and we should probably consider that possibility especially since the left feels the need to blame it on us and use it to justify their agenda against us.
24 posted on 04/16/2013 8:25:15 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Damn you!


25 posted on 04/16/2013 8:25:41 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: Vermont Lt
We are nation building in a place that will never adopt our way of doing things. And if the only reason we are in their country is because they are shooting at us....that’s a dumb reason to be there.

We left them alone after we helped them beat the Russians. That got us 911. Just leaving them alone is not an option.

26 posted on 04/16/2013 8:25:46 PM PDT by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: RC one

If I had gone out and murdered some innocent Americans, I would not expect them to spare me or anyone with me unless I was crazy and had no sense of responsibility.


27 posted on 04/16/2013 8:26:32 PM PDT by yarddog (Truth, Justice, and what was once the American Way.)
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To: EEGator

Dunno
“We examined the educational backgrounds of 75 terrorists behind some of the most significant recent terrorist attacks against Westerners. We found that a majority of them are college-educated, often in technical subjects like engineering. In the four attacks for which the most complete information about the perpetrators’ educational levels is available - the World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the attacks on the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, the 9/11 attacks, and the Bali bombings in 2002 - 53 percent of the terrorists had either attended college or had received a college degree. As a point of reference, only 52 percent of Americans have been to college. The terrorists in our study thus appear, on average, to be as well educated as many Americans.

The 1993 World Trade Center attack involved 12 men, all of whom had a college education. The 9/11 pilots, as well as the secondary planners identified by the 9/11 commission, all attended Western universities, a prestigious and elite endeavor for anyone from the Middle East. Indeed, the lead 9/11 pilot, Mohamed Atta, had a degree from a German university in, of all things, urban preservation, while the operational planner of 9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, studied engineering in North Carolina. We also found that two-thirds of the 25 hijackers and planners involved in 9/11 had attended college.

Of the 75 terrorists we investigated, only nine had attended madrassas, and all of those played a role in one attack - the Bali bombing. Even in this instance, however, five college-educated “masterminds” - including two university lecturers - helped to shape the Bali plot.

Like the view that poverty drives terrorism - a notion that countless studies have debunked - the idea that madrassas are incubating the next generation of terrorists offers the soothing illusion that desperate, ignorant automatons are attacking us rather than college graduates, as is often the case. In fact, two of the terrorists in our study had doctorates from Western universities, and two others were working toward their Ph.D.”
http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/akhwaja/media/madrassa/NYTimes.htm


28 posted on 04/16/2013 8:28:09 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.)
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To: jeltz25
perhaps, but that’s also a lot of family members and people who could be out for revenge. they take honor and blood feuds and revenge very seriously over there. just something to think about

They're discovering blood feuds are a double-edged sword. Besides, we're not really engaging in a blood feud with them. They're being targeted because they're plotting terror attacks or in league with terrorists. The moment they stop, we stop.

It's also pretty normal to scream defiance while under attack. Japanese and German civilians did the same thing, but submitted meekly after their governments surrendered.

In practice, most Muslims appear to take their religion with a grain of salt. Think of how few suicide attackers have materialized despite the promise of a paradise filled with virgins just waiting to be deflowered. Don't get me wrong - they're bigoted troglodytes to a man, but it's clear that religious shibboleths are insufficient to overcome the universal fear of death.

29 posted on 04/16/2013 8:30:50 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: JRandomFreeper
Sounds like it knocked the fight out of about 4000.

4,000 what? terrorists? Doubtful. If anything, it incited 10 times as many people to become terrorists.

How are drones different than an F-16 with a pilot?

drones and F16s don't win wars. Resolve wins wars. When has killing your enemies women and children destroyed his resolve? When was the last time we won a war btw?

30 posted on 04/16/2013 8:31:17 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: EEGator
I'm just that way.

/johnny

31 posted on 04/16/2013 8:32:16 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: bunkerhill7

I know that many terrorists are educated, especially in engineering. They are mostly Saudi, and not Taliban.

I am aware that muslims from many countries have gone to A-stan to fight the “Great Satan”. I can’t see them obtaining a nuke, let alone having a realistic platform for detonation. We have multiple countermeasures for just such an occasion.


32 posted on 04/16/2013 8:32:52 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: marktwain

I don’t think pin pricks are going to be any more helpful, not even an eternity of pin pricks.


33 posted on 04/16/2013 8:34:21 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: bunkerhill7

I should add, I’m not downplaying the seriousness of terrorism. I just don’t believe they’ll get a nuke, nor do I believe we will nuke them.


34 posted on 04/16/2013 8:34:32 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: RC one
drone strikes are ineffective at destroying the enemy or his resolve to fight. They create more enemies and they increase his resolve to fight. How would you feel if someone blew up your child or your nephew or your brother or sister and then called it acceptable collateral damage? Would you want to stop fighting or would an insatiable demonic blood rage well up inside of you? In WW2, we took the lives of women and children but we also took the enemies means of fighting and his will to fight and compelled him to surrender. obama is doing the opposite afaic.

If you bring your relatives into the field, then your relatives are acceptable collateral damage. They're angry at us not for inflicting collateral damage on them, but for defying the will of Allah, which is that we submit like the accursed infidels we are, hand over all our loot and join the long parade of slaves acquired via the jihad since the time of Muhammad.

35 posted on 04/16/2013 8:35:45 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: yarddog

Do you think we’re killing 9-11 terrorists still?


36 posted on 04/16/2013 8:35:55 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: RC one
Cry me a river, sweetheart.

I lost a family because I went back to the war when 9/11 happened.

I'm still losing former brothers in arms, and men I've fed meals to, to that war.

Don't start none, won't be none.

All the Arab Street understands is force.

/johnny

37 posted on 04/16/2013 8:36:06 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: RC one
Do you think we’re killing 9-11 terrorists still?

I think we're plowing that soil where they originally grew from. That's good enough.

/johnny

38 posted on 04/16/2013 8:38:01 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Kill them until they stop attacking us. If that means there’s not a house cat left, I’m fine with that.


39 posted on 04/16/2013 8:40:13 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: RC one
The muzzies are all about retribution for 1100 yr old losses.

Boston could be about most anything.

Best to eschew muzzies domestically and internationally.

Terrible idea for arm them in Syria through that arms dealer Ben Gahzi.

40 posted on 04/16/2013 8:41:56 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: RC one
The muzzies are all about retribution for 1100 yr old losses.

Boston could be about most anything.

Best to eschew muzzies domestically and internationally.

Terrible idea to arm them in Syria through that arms dealer Ben Gahzi.

41 posted on 04/16/2013 8:42:14 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Zhang Fei

Are they really bringing their relatives onto the field when we target them in their homes? We get intel that says so and so is going to be someplace at such and such a time and there will be innocents in the vicinity and then Obama gives the order to proceed. It isn’t as if they’re chaining up women and children around a barracks building or something. We are the visitors. It’s their home field and there are innocents all over the place and we determine that it’s OK to kill them if it gets us so and so. You’re trying to church it up so you can morally justify it. Ignorance is bliss as they say.


42 posted on 04/16/2013 8:43:15 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I’m not crying and I’m not your sweetheart cookie; furthermore, I served too and in the infantry so don’t throw your service in my face and expect me to get all weak kneed.


43 posted on 04/16/2013 8:45:55 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: RC one

It may be true that they have been radicalized, but they overlooked one tiny thing.

*I’ve* been “radicalized.

Especially when they blew up my friend in the basement of the E-ring of the Building on 9/11.

Eff them. HHC’s husband.


44 posted on 04/16/2013 8:46:41 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: EEGator

dunno bis:

Congressional Research Service Feb. 13, 2013
“Pakistan has in recent years taken a number of steps to increase international confidence in the
security of its nuclear arsenal. In addition to overhauling nuclear command and control structures
since September 11, 2001, Islamabad has implemented new personnel security programs.
Moreover, Pakistani and some U.S. officials argue that, since the 2004 revelations about a
procurement network run by former Pakistani nuclear official A. Q. Khan, Islamabad has taken a
number of steps to improve its nuclear security and to prevent further proliferation of nuclearrelated
technologies and materials. A number of important initiatives, such as strengthened export
control laws, improved personnel security, and international nuclear security cooperation
programs have improved Pakistan’s security situation in recent years.
However, instability in Pakistan has called the extent and durability of these reforms into
question. Some observers fear radical takeover of a government that possesses a nuclear bomb, or
proliferation by radical sympathizers within Pakistan’s nuclear complex in case of a breakdown
of controls. While U.S. and Pakistani officials continue to express confidence in controls over
Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, continued instability in the country could impact these safeguards.
For a broader discussion, see CRS Report RL33498, Pakistan-U.S. Relations, by K. Alan
Kronstadt. This report will be updated.”

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/nuke/RL34248.pdf


45 posted on 04/16/2013 8:49:02 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 ("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.)
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To: RC one
Are you kidding me?

Ever see the show Bomb Squad Afghanistan?

Go watch an episode and then come back here and spout that!

46 posted on 04/16/2013 8:49:07 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: jeltz25
they take honor and blood feuds and revenge very seriously over there...

I take it very seriously over here!

As you were..

47 posted on 04/16/2013 8:51:20 PM PDT by hellinahandcart
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To: bunkerhill7

Thanks for the info and link.


48 posted on 04/16/2013 8:53:40 PM PDT by EEGator
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To: hellinahandcart

all I’m saying is that Boston could just as easily be retaliation for these drone strikes as it could be for taxes, or the second amendment, or whatever other right wing cause the media wants to attribute it to. I really didn’t want to discuss the morality of it but that seems to be the direction everyone wants to go with it. What. ever.


49 posted on 04/16/2013 8:53:52 PM PDT by RC one (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.)
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To: RC one
I dislike whiny appeasers.

/johnny

50 posted on 04/16/2013 8:55:47 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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