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Dave Says: Work For the Extra Perks of College
Townhall.com ^ | May 15, 2013 | Dave Ramsey

Posted on 05/15/2013 9:36:40 AM PDT by Kaslin

Dear Dave,

I’m a stay-at-home mom now, and my husband brings home $2,600 a month. We’re trying to get out of debt, but we need more money coming in. I want to go back to work, but emotionally part of me feels like I should stay home with our 2-year-old daughter. What do you think?

Kayla

Dear Kayla,

I understand the feelings involved, especially if you’ve spent all of your time home with your child. But don’t make the mistake of blaming the debt if you simply want to go back to work. You’re not a bad person if you have kids and you work outside the home.

I have several ladies on my team who have young children, and they work 40 hours a week. Guess what? They’re excellent mothers! Anyone who says a woman can’t be a great mom because she works outside the home is full of crap. On the other hand, if anyone says you’re not fulfilling yourself as a person or you’re stunting your intellectual development because you’re a stay-at-home mom, they’re full of it too!

I’d advise you and your husband to sit down, talk about this a lot, and pray about the situation. Don’t worry about what anyone else thinks, because it’s none of their business.You guys are in charge of your lives and your family. That makes it your job to decide what’s best.

If you want to stay at home, and you guys can make it happen financially, that’s a great thing. If you can’t right now, or you simply want to go back into the workforce, that’s fine too. It’ll help solve your debt problem. Then after you’ve got your money under control, you might find you want to come home again. The option will be there.

For now, I think you should go back to work. Why? Because you want to!

—Dave

 

Dear Dave,

We live in New Jersey, and my wife and I can afford the $10,000 to send our son to a state college. However, we have a younger child who is heading to college in a couple of years, and I’m having a hard time justifying room and board when he can commute. My wife doesn’t have a problem paying for it, even though it would mean taking out a loan. What do you think?

Andy

Dear Andy,

I’m with you on this one. If you had an extra $40,000 lying around, this wouldn’t be an issue. But if you’re talking about borrowing money just for him to live in a dorm, my answer is a resounding no!

If your son, or your wife, wants the “college experience” to be part of the equation, then Junior can get a job to pay for the added expense. Anyone can make $10,000 a year delivering pizza while in school, and it would be a great life experience. You might spot him a little something to get him in there and get things going, but I’d make it contingent on him working to pay the remainder.

There’s no reason to take out loans for something like this. It sounds like you guys can cash flow the important stuff, but make sure this kid learns what work is and why it’s important. I worked full time while I was in college and still graduated in four years.

Besides, most college dorm rooms look a lot like prison cells; they’re tiny, with concrete block walls and maybe a window, if you’re lucky. Does this really sound like an “experience” worth going into debt for? I don’t think so!

—Dave


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Reference; Society
KEYWORDS: daveramsey; finances; money; ramsey

1 posted on 05/15/2013 9:36:40 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

The first answer assumes she wants to work. Based on the question, it sounds like she wants to stay home...


2 posted on 05/15/2013 9:42:43 AM PDT by wolfman23601
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To: wolfman23601

I didn’t go to work until my daughter, who was the youngest of my children went to Kinder Garden, and then it was part time in the morning while she was in Kinder Garden and her two older brothers were in school. I did consider working when my sons were smaller, but I figured the cost of a baby sitter and the transportation or fuel cost, etc wasn’t worth it.


3 posted on 05/15/2013 9:56:32 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: Kaslin
About Kayla's predicament: I have several ladies on my team who have young children, and they work 40 hours a week. Guess what? They’re excellent mothers! Anyone who says a woman can’t be a great mom because she works outside the home is full of crap.

Anybody who says someone is a great mom until he sees the outcome of her efforts when her children are grown is full of crap.

About Andy's 2-son budget: If your son, or your wife, wants the "college experience” to be part of the equation, then Junior can get a job to pay for the added expense.

Sending either son to college before they have proven themselves in the job market place, and have a clear, calculated goal, is full of crap.

IMHO Dave is full of crap. From experience.

4 posted on 05/15/2013 10:03:52 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: Hoosier Catholic Momma; CottonBall; TenthAmendmentChampion; Chickensoup; JDoutrider; ...

Dave Ramsey Ping.


5 posted on 05/15/2013 10:14:04 AM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: imardmd1

“IMHO Dave is full of crap. From experience.”

Anyone who attacks Dave based on one article, is full of crap.


6 posted on 05/15/2013 10:15:19 AM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: Kaslin
I did consider working when my sons were smaller, but I figured the cost of a baby sitter and the transportation or fuel cost, etc wasn’t worth it.

You were likely quite right, but the reason is wrong. The reason ought to have been that the best of the "best" day-care centers, even Montessori or Goddard-type repositories, cannot supervise the child as well as a true nanny, and no nanny can achieve in a child what a determined mom/dad can and ought to.

The best kindergarten is the home, if you want your child to love you through obeying you. You and your husband are very foolish if the decision is based on family income.

From 55 years of direct observation and experience.

7 posted on 05/15/2013 10:17:19 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: CSM
Anyone who attacks Dave based on one article, is full of crap.

And your experience is -- ??

8 posted on 05/15/2013 10:19:41 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: Kaslin; wolfman23601
Why was my reply post 7 addressed to kaslin rather than to wolfman23601, for whom it was meant?? Hmmm.
9 posted on 05/15/2013 10:25:25 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: CSM
Anyone who attacks Dave based on one article, is full of crap.

Anyone who thinks he/she is not full of crap, when he/she holds up a poor advisor of individuals who also claims to be a wise advisor to the general public, is not capable of judging whether anecdotal information is or is not applicable.

10 posted on 05/15/2013 10:43:25 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: imardmd1

“And your experience is — ??”

Not much really, just having worked through all 7 of the baby steps, becoming a Dave Ramsey certified financial counselor, reading all of his books and listening to his radio program for the last 6 years.

“Anyone who thinks he/she is not full of crap, when he/she holds up a poor advisor of individuals who also claims to be a wise advisor to the general public, is not capable of judging whether anecdotal information is or is not applicable.”

These articles are very much simplified discussions of what can be complex issues. If you knew anything about Dave Ramsey, then you would have been able to understand the context of his answers. You can’t, yet you attacked him based on one article. That makes you the one that is full of crap. (to use your words.)

He has helped millions of people become debt free, to live within their means and to become financially secure. In addition, that generally leads to gains in other areas of their lives. How many people has your ministry touched?


11 posted on 05/15/2013 12:23:02 PM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: CSM

I wonder how many babies think their mom is a great mom when they are stuck in daycare 45 hrs every week? Lately Dave sound more and more like a humanist when handing out advice.


12 posted on 05/15/2013 2:10:19 PM PDT by happyhomemaker (Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Rom 12:12)
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To: CSM
(to use your words.)

To use Daves words, which apparently toy are following.

Not much really, just having worked through all 7 of the baby steps, becoming a Dave Ramsey certified financial counselor, reading all of his books and listening to his radio program for the last 6 years.

That does not sound like experience.

I claim the feature of having made as many mistakes (not all recoverable) as successes. I speak from personal experience, not theorizing from some other human's fallible philosophy.

How many people has your ministry touched?

Any one who is willing to become a regenerated believer disciple/priest following the words of the Lord Jesus Christ as given in His Holy Word.

I have never been able to help anyone who is not willing to follow Scriptural commands rather than Dave:

"Owe no man nothing, no not anything at all, except to love one another." (A rather precise rendering of Romans 13:8)

Love can be "tough love."

Have you confused Mr. Ramsey's counsel with that of The God's counsel?

(Not trying to establish an adversarial stance, but we do have a difference of opinion on how to evaluate others' counsel.)

13 posted on 05/15/2013 3:36:45 PM PDT by imardmd1
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To: CSM
I am sorry for not checking my (mistyped) reply closely. Here's what came out:

>> (to use your words.)

>> To use Daves words, which apparently toy are following.

Doesn't make sense at all, does it? Here's what I really meant to say:

>> (to use your words.)

>> To use Dave's words, which apparently you are following.

14 posted on 05/15/2013 7:58:34 PM PDT by imardmd1
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To: Kaslin; CSM
Dave's answer to Tanya is: I have several ladies on my team who have young children, and they work 40 hours a week. Guess what? They’re excellent mothers! Anyone who says a woman can’t be a great mom because she works outside the home is full of crap.

The Bible's answer to Tanya:

Her predicament of desires vs her role

- "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Mt 6:24 )
- "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Lk 16:13)

Her established authorities vs changing masters

- First, The God: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Ex 20:3, the 2nd Commandment).
- Second, her husband: For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: (1Pe 3:5).
- Third, her husband receiving and verifying the counsel of their elder(s)of the assembly, as compared to Scripture: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; ..." (Eph 4:12-14).
"These (Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Ac 17:11).

Para-church counselors?

- A "Dave" outside the family and/or the local assembly does not seem to be indicated as a valid counselor.

Her God-given sphere of employment

- Her value: "Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies."
- Her subordinate role to and rule by her husband: "The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life."
- Her work location and occupation: "She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands. She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar. She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens. She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard. She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms. She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night. She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff. She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy. She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet. She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
- Publicly demonstration of loyalty and subordinated attitude toward The God and her husband only: "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land."
- Her visible reputation: "She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant. Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come. She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness. She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness."
- Her recognition: "Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her. Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all."
- Her acclamation: "Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised."
- Her rewards from The God and from mankind: "Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates. "

Does Tanya not have a knowledge of The God's will for her? Does she have a naive husband? Has she no church home nor pastor? Has she no example of an upbinging in a home governed by wisdom? Why is she seeking counsel from a man she does not even know?

Dave's correct response to her approach might be to direct her to the counsel of Scriptures, and her husband, and together with their pastor -- not offering his counsel as an alternate. Though he might suggest that she contemplate a family- and home-based business.

********

Dave's answer to Andy:

I’m with you on this one. If you had an extra $40,000 lying around, this wouldn’t be an issue. But if you’re talking about borrowing money just for him to live in a dorm, my answer is a resounding no!

After the old saw that if a hammer is your only tool, every problem begins to look like a nail. Apparently here neither Dave nor Andy are competent enough to see that this is both a cognitive and a spiritual issue, not particularly a financial management one. Dave's qualified answer is only a partial solution; not a firm, final, and conclusive one. Neither does it seek for the causes.

Outside of and separate from funds availability, the young man does not seem to have the cognitive maturity to know that he is at a point in life where: (1) he and he alone must make the decision as to the direction his further life is to follow; (2) whether college/university training is necessary, or even beneficial; and (3) whether he has socially and scholastically been prepared for it. On the other hand, by spiritual discernment he should know: (1) to what effort The God has prepared and called him; (2) that for borrowing from the future by mortgaging the past to consume in the present is not The God's purpose and plan for financing; and that (3) he will successfully escape The God's blessing in this pursuit.

It is a fundamental understanding The God's economy for the material resources that He has permitted us to manage is that: (1) His supply for each of his children is to meet our basic needs; (2) to provide by giving with love to needing fellow saints or/and their ministries as The Holy Ghost directs; (3) if the absence of resources for projected plans are either (a) not to His timing, to His design, or (b) perhaps not to be at all. In any of these cases, lack of resources are not to be overcome by borrowing, because that neutralizes and defies His guidance exercised through presence or absence of supply. The fourth concept is that His projects, conducted in His way and in His timing, with resources supplied by Him at His determinate Will, will give Him Alone the glory.

And in this case, committing some $40K will merely undercut the blooming young man's creativity, resourcefulness, and dependence on God for its progress -- sort of like trying to help a chicken to hatch, or a butterfly to shed its chrysalis. A deformed being results, eh?

Dave's appropriate answer to Andy might well be to recognize that neither he nor the father can make and execute the lad's decisions when it is his time to make his own, with God's counsel, not Dave's. If the father has not recognized his duty to train his child for this moment, it could be a decisive moment to call Andy and his son into a life of accelerated discipleship, as Jesus did for the Twelve (and one could not make it).

From experience, and with respect -- (another uninvited sermonette, I guess)

15 posted on 05/16/2013 12:20:12 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: CSM

You said it


16 posted on 05/16/2013 4:09:12 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: imardmd1

Day care centers didn’t exist in the mid 60, and 70s. The first time I heard about day care centers was in the early 1980s


17 posted on 05/16/2013 4:13:45 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: imardmd1; wolfman23601
You replied to my post because this was part of my reply to wolfman23601

I did consider working when my sons were smaller, but I figured the cost of a baby sitter and the transportation or fuel cost, etc wasn’t worth it.

18 posted on 05/16/2013 4:40:46 AM PDT by Kaslin (He needed the ignorant to reelect him, and he got them. Now we all have to pay the consequenses)
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To: imardmd1

You posted a lot of good information, however it is FAR beyond the available space provided to Dave for his articles. Remember, his articles are very brief and that is driven by the syndication requirements of the hard copy (bird cage version) of the newspapers involved. If you were to actually listen to his radio program, you would hear a much more detailed and biblically based answer.


19 posted on 05/16/2013 5:57:18 AM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: happyhomemaker

I am in agreement with you that the preference would be to have a stay at home mom. I would even go so far as to declare my preference to home school.

However, a family must also consider their financial mess when having this discussion. His answer is very vague, but it is essentially making the point that families need to think about the big picture for these decisions.

If a family has made a financial mess, then they have a very weak household, therefore they should work to strengthen their position. If that means that both spouses need to work for a short period, then that may be necessary. I would actually lean toward one spouse taking on multiple jobs to pay down debt, but it would depend on both of their abilities to bring in the most bacon.

Keep in mind that the general person asking him for his advice on these matters has spent years creating a financial mess. It is reasonable for those folks to consider a temporarily difficult, and not preferred, plan of action. Then they can get to the preferred scenario from a position of strength. In the end, working from a position of strength will ensure that their preferred approach will remain stable.


20 posted on 05/16/2013 6:05:26 AM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: imardmd1

“I have never been able to help anyone who is not willing to follow Scriptural commands rather than Dave:

“Owe no man nothing, no not anything at all, except to love one another.” (A rather precise rendering of Romans 13:8)”

Had you done anything other than to judge Dave based on the ONE article, then you would realize that you have simply restated nearly his entire ministry with the above comment.

If you are attempting to be a witness to me, and other FReepers, this approach is not very effective.


21 posted on 05/16/2013 6:07:26 AM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: CSM
Had you done anything other than to judge Dave based on the ONE article, then you would realize that you have simply restated nearly his entire ministry with the above comment.

I guess I failed to make my point clear: I do not believe, from this article, that Dave's solutions addressed the root problems.

Tanya's problem was yearning to exchange masters -- because one cannot serve two.
Andy's problem was failing to teach himself or his sons to make one's own life decisions, because of lack of guidance from guidance by the Holy Spirit.
Dave's problem is holding himself forth as a life counselor (usurping the role of the local church) rather than as a qualified public accountant (apparently his singular strength).

Any hints here for the problems you might be experiencing? (rhetorical, no answer needed)

When Jesus healed, his ministry addressed the whole person (spiritual, medical, material), almost always tracing back to spiritual error or ignorance. As I said, if your only tool is a hammer ... time to get the right tools for the job, eh? Romans 13:8 is not the answer to every problem.

If you are attempting to be a witness to me, and other FReepers, this approach is not very effective.

I already stated who my "ministry" can touch. For many, it will not. The Master's tough love is often rejected when one has a choice. I know -- have gone to the woodshed with my Heavenly Father many times. My proper focus is a life witness to Him. You?

With best regards --

22 posted on 05/16/2013 9:17:22 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul. Ps 66:16)
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To: Kaslin
Oh, yes -- I got that backward. Thanks for taking the time to set me correctly.

I am very grateful for your diligence in selecting articles of great interest for this forum. This sort of gratuitous labor is probably the main reason that Free Republic is my premier source of news and views across the nation. I'm sure your contribution is noticed by many.

-- Break a leg, eh? -- /smile

23 posted on 05/16/2013 9:34:05 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul. Ps 66:16)
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To: imardmd1

“Dave’s problem is holding himself forth as a life counselor (usurping the role of the local church) rather than as a qualified public accountant (apparently his singular strength).”

Again, you show you are completely ignorant. In addition, it has taken you several very long posts, filled with nuance and judgement, to try and make a point. Your typing would FAR exceed the space available to Dave in the local papers that carry his article.

You clearly desire to remain ignorant so that you can sit in judgement of your fellow man.


24 posted on 05/16/2013 9:44:53 AM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: Kaslin
Day care centers didn’t exist in the mid 60, and 70s. The first time I heard about day care centers was in the early 1980s

It might be rather interesting to establish the reason driving the blossoming of these very profitable centers warehousing kids from the cradle to allow women to follow careers outside the home. What has been the effect? I can give a few personal anecdotal experiences, but what is the statistical significance to our cultural drift and child development?

25 posted on 05/16/2013 9:53:51 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul. Ps 66:16)
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To: CSM
You clearly desire to remain ignorant so that you can sit in judgement of your fellow man.

Thanks for your expert criticism. I'll take it under advisement.

BTW, that's "judgment."

26 posted on 05/16/2013 10:06:41 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul. Ps 66:16)
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To: imardmd1

Ignorance is not a slight, it is a recognition that you don’t know anything about Dave, outside of this article, and that you have no desire to acquire any knowledge about the subject.

I am ignorant about many things and am more than happy to remain ignorant about them. However, I don’t attack folks that write articles about those subjects.


27 posted on 05/16/2013 12:54:04 PM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: Kaslin
Work For the Extra Perks of College

What a concept!

28 posted on 05/16/2013 12:55:07 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: CSM
Ignorance is not a slight, it is a recognition that you don’t know anything about Dave, outside of this article, and that you have no desire to acquire any knowledge about the subject.

To the contrary, I am not ignorant of how he has approached the two problems in this article examined, and find that already he has a mixture of truth and error, such that I would read any advice he gives very cautiously, for he does not trust nor interpret the Holy Scriptures completely, and does not apply them consistently.

I am not attacking you, just debating, but you certainly have been attacking my writing despite what you maintain here, and in defense of a flawed discipline.

Sometimes I feel it is just as important to warn souls as much as to win them. Read your Bible. Lots of opportunities here on FR, as long as it is helpful and not just a general oppositionally defiant nuisance. IIRC

29 posted on 05/16/2013 3:17:32 PM PDT by imardmd1
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