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Vanity: What is the gunshow loophole?
vanity | 06/18/13 | self

Posted on 06/18/2013 9:08:35 AM PDT by Sherman Logan

I continuously see claims that "we must close the gunshow loophole" in the MSM. But on FR most people seem to assume there is no such loophole.

I've tried to research exactly what this loophole is supposed to be, but one side seems to take its existence as self-evident and therefore needing no definition, and the other as an equally obvious negative.

I would really appreciate an explanation of what this loophole is supposed to be, and perhaps of why it isn't one.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: banglist; guncontrol; gunshow; loophole; secondamendment
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Thanks.
1 posted on 06/18/2013 9:08:35 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

If I can add to your post, a caller on talk radio’s John Gibson show yesterday said someone could easily go on the internet and buy guns. Is this true?


2 posted on 06/18/2013 9:11:14 AM PDT by killermosquito (Buffalo, Detroit (and eventually France) is what you get when liberalism runs its course.)
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To: Sherman Logan
Two private citizens can transfer a gun from one to the other without notifying the feral government.

Sometimes such a transaction might take place at a guns show, ergo the term "gun show loophole."

3 posted on 06/18/2013 9:12:13 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (People with religious faith in government are far crazier than people with religious faith in God.)
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To: killermosquito
If I can add to your post, a caller on talk radio’s John Gibson show yesterday said someone could easily go on the internet and buy guns. Is this true?

Yes, as long as you have the gun delivered to an FFL dealer, who will charge $15-$35 for the service.

4 posted on 06/18/2013 9:13:19 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (People with religious faith in government are far crazier than people with religious faith in God.)
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To: killermosquito

Pretty certain that you must have the firearm delivered to a local gun dealer and pick up there. The seller can’t deliver it directly to your home.


5 posted on 06/18/2013 9:14:20 AM PDT by dhs12345
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To: Sherman Logan

The so-called “Gun Show Loophole” is a term coined by liberal anti-gun folks to describe private transactions. If a dealer sells a gun at a gun show, or in his storefront, the purchaser must have a background check approved in order to purchase the firearm. However, if two private individuals, who are not federally licensed dealers, engage in a private sale of a firearm, no background check is required, whether it takes place at a gun show or not.

Pro gun folks like myself, are generally alright with requiring licensed dealers to require background checks, because the government issues the FFL and can require a background check. However, we are generally against the government requiring private individuals to have a background check in order to sell a firearm.


6 posted on 06/18/2013 9:14:26 AM PDT by Bell407Pilot
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To: Sherman Logan

Basically,

Gun Show Loophole = your right to dispose of your private property as you wish.

Citizens don’t need permission from government to sell their own guns, whether they are at their home or at a gun show. Licensees do.


7 posted on 06/18/2013 9:14:43 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (I'm not racist - I hate Biden too!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

In other words there is no loophole. If they are dealers, you have to do the normal check. If they are individuals, you don’t just the same as buying one from your neighbor. If you purchase a gun off the internet, it must be shipped to an FFL dealer, and you of course fill out the same forms and are subject to the same instant check. I get tired of the idiots talking about a gun show loophole, and that you can just order guns off the internet “no questions asked”. It’s utter BS. I’ve done all the above, on both sides of the counter, too.


8 posted on 06/18/2013 9:15:29 AM PDT by nobamanomore
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To: Sherman Logan
The anti-gunners have created the statment by pretending that an exchange between private parties (legal in most states if both parties are residents)is an “unregulated” exhange AND that that is the only type of tranfer that happens at gun shows. There is a lot of data that says that these types of sales are very small number compared to the number of ones by dealers that require a background check. Also, it is incumbant on the seller (by federal law) to “know” the buyer and to have soem verification that they are a resdient of the sate they are in. Here in Nevada we get many people from Kalifonia trying to buy guns at shows as a private party transfer. That is an illegal tranfers if it happens.
9 posted on 06/18/2013 9:16:30 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: Sherman Logan

Oh, come on.......there is on loop hole.
It’s just like when “the enlightened” say tax loop holes, when they are legal tax deductions.
Liberals know nothing about weapons, or their purchase.


10 posted on 06/18/2013 9:16:40 AM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: Sherman Logan
According to the left, the "loophole" could be anything they want it to be. My take is, they suggest gun sales occur at these shows without background checks. We on the right know that in order to sell guns at gun shows, an FFL is required. And if you have an FFL, you must do the background check.

That said, PRIVATE individuals also attend gun shows. If two private citizens get together and want to have a private exchange, no background check is performed. The Left sees this as a problem.

11 posted on 06/18/2013 9:17:48 AM PDT by Lou L (Health "insurance" is NOT the same as health "care")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; Sherman Logan

Correct, it is the private transfer.

I would add that laws designed to “close the loophole” make it a felony to loan a weapon, have someone keep a weapon for you, etc. without going through a federal firearms dealer ($25-50 fee) on both ends of the transaction.

In fact, if I have firearm in my truck and loan the truck to my brother without removing the firearm, one or both of us would be guilty of a felony, per the new proposed law.

If my brother wanted to leave his pistol at my house, while he ran onto the local Naval Base (gun free zone), that would be a felony. If you and I went skeet shooting and you forgot one of your shotguns under my backseat, that would be a felony. If my father gave me the first rifle I killed a deer with, and we didn’t go through an FFL, it would be a felony.

That is the full extent of “fixing” the gun show loophole.


12 posted on 06/18/2013 9:20:07 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: killermosquito
If I can add to your post, a caller on talk radio’s John Gibson show yesterday said someone could easily go on the internet and buy guns. Is this true?

If it is a person-to-person transfer, it's not any different than answering an ad in the paper, or buying from a friend/neighbor.

But, if you are shipping across state lines, it must be shipped to an FFL holder, who performs the same steps as a retail sale.

13 posted on 06/18/2013 9:20:57 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; killermosquito
Yes, as long as you have the gun delivered to an FFL dealer, who will charge $15-$35 for the service.

And complete the background check, and observe all waiting periods, before pick up.

14 posted on 06/18/2013 9:21:58 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Sherman Logan

It is the “loophole” that allows private citizens to sell firearms to each other without going through a government approved background check. Currently after a private citizen sells a firearm to another citizen, there is no way to track who owns it. This really pisses off liberals.


15 posted on 06/18/2013 9:22:13 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
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To: killermosquito

Not really. If you go to any of the major sites, they require an FFL.

If you go to craigslist (assuming they allow gun sales; I don’t know) and arrange a person-to-person purchase, depending on your state there is no FFL required.


16 posted on 06/18/2013 9:22:53 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: Sherman Logan

It’s like saying that because you can sell your used car to another person without being a car dealer that there is a parking lot loophole


17 posted on 06/18/2013 9:23:28 AM PDT by CrazyIvan (Obama's birth certificate was found stapled to Soros's receilpt.)
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To: killermosquito

Yes, you can go on the Internet and purchase a firearm. If the firearm is in another state you MUST ship it through a FFL dealer where you will go through a background check.


18 posted on 06/18/2013 9:23:43 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Inside every liberal and WOD defender is a totalitarian screaming to get out.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

“This really pisses off liberals.”

Pisses off “statists,” you mean. Plenty of RINOs like this idea, too.

Can’t have the population being able to rise up too easily.


19 posted on 06/18/2013 9:23:52 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Beware Obama's Reichstag Fire.)
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To: killermosquito

My last gun purchase:

Bid on the gun on Gunbroker (Ebay for guns) and won it.

Called the seller. Told him the name of the establishment (pawn shop) I would be using to transfer the gun (required).

Went to the post office and got a money order and mailed it to the seller.

Called the pawn shop with the sellers fax number and asked them to fax a copy of their FFL to the seller with my name and the name of the gun on it.

Several days passed. Called the seller for confirmation of receipt of payment and the pawn shop’s fax.

Seller shipped the gun to the pawn shop.

Several more days passed. The pawn shop called me to tell me that the gun had arrived.

I went to the pawn shop, where I had to present ID, fill out a form 4473 declaring that I wasn’t a felon and was eligible to receive a firearm. Waited while the pawn shop rep called NICs (National Criminal Instant Check System) and read them the info on the form. Once the check came back with “proceed”, I paid the pawn shop the fee that they charge me to transfer the gun ($15.00) and took possession of the gun.

It is not trivial to buy a gun on the internet.

All of this is the minimum required by law.


20 posted on 06/18/2013 9:23:57 AM PDT by FLAMING DEATH (I'm not racist - I hate Biden too!)
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To: Bell407Pilot
Bell407Pilot said: "Pro gun folks like myself, are generally alright with requiring licensed dealers to require background checks, because the government issues the FFL and can require a background check. "

Speak for yourself. I adamantly oppose ANY federal firearms laws.

The FFL system is an enabling device for outlawing all private transfers of firearms. Here in Kalifornia, EVERY firearm I have ever purchased is in state government records. Without the existing FFL system, it would have been very difficult for Kalifornia to set up a system of licensed dealers.

To go even further, I adamantly oppose ANY law which requires the existence of serial numbers on firearms. Again, serial numbers are an enabling device for virtually all gun control laws. Can you imagine the government violating the First Amendment by requiring serial numbers on books?

21 posted on 06/18/2013 9:25:18 AM PDT by William Tell
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To: Bell407Pilot

When a private person sells a firearm to a FFL Dealer at a show, is the seller required to have a background check?


22 posted on 06/18/2013 9:27:46 AM PDT by Joe Bfstplk
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; dhs12345; killermosquito
There are some websites that are like a newspaper want add where private sellers advertise and meet private buyers to make an exchange.
23 posted on 06/18/2013 9:30:00 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: Sherman Logan

In some states a person who is not an FFL can sell a gun to someone he believes to be a resident of his state and has no reason to believe is a felon. In some states that means he can go to a gunshow and sell a gun, usually by walking around with it. So no, there isn’t really a “gun show loophole”, he is just doing something at a gunshow that he could do outside the gunshow. This is only legal in some states.

The internet sales thing is just a lie. It might be technically legal to sell a gun to someone who lives in the same state as you, if you are not an FFL, even if they contacted you on the internet, but no one would. The auction sites don’t allow that sort of thing and online gunsellers are all FFL’s who only ship to FFL’s.


24 posted on 06/18/2013 9:31:05 AM PDT by thorvaldr
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To: Sherman Logan

The Nazis want to stop ALL private gun sales... this is their foot into the door. That is all anyone needs to know.

LLS


25 posted on 06/18/2013 9:33:01 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (FROM MY COLD, DEAD HANDS!)
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To: Sherman Logan
Short version: there is no "gun show loophole". This is a strawman invented by the hoplophobes to mislead the uninformed: kind of like "assault weapon" was used to describe a semi-automatic rifle with certain cosmetic attributes was more dangerous than an equivalent rifle without those attributes.

Longer version: If you are buying from a private individual at a gun show, it's no different from buying a gun from a friend or neighbor.

If you are buying from a FFL (federal firearms license) holder at a gun show, they must perform all the steps required for a retain transaction.

At a typical gun show, the overwhelming majority of sales are by FFL holders -- as in about 90%. Only a handful are private individuals selling guns from their private collection.

The ATF is pretty stringent about what constitutes selling from a private collection, and buying/selling firearms as a business. If you are pretending to do the former, and are actually doing the latter, they will come down on you. And, they do "patrol" the gun shows looking for people like that.

If they require private sellers to go through FFL holders to sell a gun at a gun show, they'll simply drive those sellers away from gun shows and selling them elsewhere. The problem: a gun show is a secure place to sell your collection. You don't have to worry about meeting someone unknown to you to sell a gun, and you don't have to advertise to the world that you have a gun to sell.

Of course, the real goal is to track all private transfers. In some states, that's already happening. But, the reality is that very few firearms used in crime are acquired through legitimate means, either from a FFL holder or a private individual that legally owned the firearm.

26 posted on 06/18/2013 9:35:00 AM PDT by justlurking (tagline removed, as demanded by Admin Moderator)
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To: dhs12345

Within state, yes. If I meet a guy on a forum who has a gun to sell, I can meet him face to face, and buy/ sell within boundaries of law.


27 posted on 06/18/2013 9:35:07 AM PDT by absolootezer0 (2x divorced tattooed pierced harley hatin meghan mccain luvin' REAL beer drinkin' smoker ..what?)
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To: Sherman Logan

Never been to a gun show, never bought a firearm over the counter, never filled out an ATF form. Nobody knows what I have, or where it came from, and I like to keep the powers to be guessing. I may have nothing, and I’m just blowing smoke up you a$$, or I may have enough to supply a small army. That’s for me to know, and hopefully, for you to never have to find out.


28 posted on 06/18/2013 9:35:41 AM PDT by factoryrat (We are the producers, the creators. Grow it, mine it, build it.)
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To: William Tell

Hear, hear!

Also: if the Second Amendment were treated as solemnly as the Fifth, the state would be required to issue a citizen at least a basic no-frills firearm upon proof of financial hardship.


29 posted on 06/18/2013 9:35:49 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (It's been over 90 days; time to start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: Joe Bfstplk

I didn’t, when I sold mine.


30 posted on 06/18/2013 9:37:30 AM PDT by ExGeeEye (It's been over 90 days; time to start on 2014. Carpe GOP!)
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To: William Tell

So if someone steals your firearm how do you prove it’s yours if there are no serial numbers?


31 posted on 06/18/2013 9:37:45 AM PDT by kempo
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To: Sherman Logan

Statistically, I’ve wondered how many guns obtained by LEO’s from active shooters at crime scenes were actually purchased by the perp from a gun show. Not one they probably stole from someone who bought it at a gun show.


32 posted on 06/18/2013 9:45:55 AM PDT by showme_the_Glory (ILLEGAL: prohibited by law. ALIEN: Owing political allegiance to another country or government)
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To: CrazyIvan

There is a parking lot loophole. Any redneck can just go buy an evil SUV from anybody else even if they dont have a license. Then that SUV might go kill somebody. They can even park the unregistered vehicle at their house and never ever register it.

Using the term Gun show loophole is kind of like the left calling republicans evil or bad. The terms are meaningless to an atheist. Even using the law as a moral standard doesnt work because leftists don’t have to follow laws they disagree with. They call it sticking it to the man or speaking truth to power. No rules for me and our shifting rules for thee.


33 posted on 06/18/2013 9:46:29 AM PDT by Rad_J
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To: Sherman Logan
Lots of good answers here. I'll sum up:

1. There is no loophole per se. All guns sold by dealers at gun shows must be transferred according to all applicable state and federal laws, including background checks and waiting periods if applicable.

1B. The "exception" occurs when a private citizen takes a privately owned gun to a gun show and sells it to another person in a private sale. This is no different from putting an ad for your gun in the newspaper and having someone stop by and buy it from you.

2. Internet gun sales are regulated the same as in-person gun sales. If you but a gun on the internet, it must be transferred via an FFL according to all applicable state and federal laws, including background checks and waiting periods if applicable. If anything it is tougher than buying in person.

That about sums it up. Of course, if you get a C&R license you can get certain guns delivered right to your front door without any paperwork. Just don't tell the libs.

34 posted on 06/18/2013 9:50:24 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: William Tell

“Speak for yourself. I adamantly oppose ANY federal firearms laws.”

......shall not be infringed.


35 posted on 06/18/2013 9:53:10 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: justlurking; All

Thanks all for your replies.

Let’s see if I have this straight.

If I meet another person attending a gun show and we strike up a conversation and make a deal that’s no different from my selling something to a friend or neighbor. Just a place where people who might be interested in such sales are likely to run into each other.

Here’s my followup stupid question. To have a booth at a gunshow, as opposed to just attending, does a person need a license? Or can I rent space and sell from my collection despite being unlicensed because I’m not “in the business?”


36 posted on 06/18/2013 9:53:45 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: kempo
kempo said: "So if someone steals your firearm how do you prove it’s yours if there are no serial numbers?"

I can scratch an identifying mark on it and take a picture. Whatever I might do, it should be my business and not the governments.

I have very much less concern that my gun will be stolen by someone I don't know versus having it confiscated by government.

I did have some firearms stolen from me years ago, (embezzled, actually) and I refused to have the detective on the case notify ATF. I would rather eat broken glass than involve the baby-killers. The serial numbers did assist in getting my guns back, but the guns would never have been lost if not for Kalifornia's unconstitutional gun laws.

37 posted on 06/18/2013 9:54:43 AM PDT by William Tell
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To: Joe Bfstplk
Nope, no background check to sell a gun. Only to buy one, and FFLs are known actors that don't require backgroud checks.

That said, most FFLs won't touch a gun that they have reason to believe is "hot" with a 10 foot pole.

38 posted on 06/18/2013 9:55:20 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Purchasing a firearm varies somewhat from state to state.
Here in NC there is no ‘gun show loophole’.
Long guns purchased from an individual, nothing required.
From store/ gun show vendor, NCIC check.

Handguns go through NCIC plus checked through a pistol permit gotten at the Sheriff’s office . They run a separate check. (you apply for and get the permits ahead of time, $5 each. You can get as many as 5 at a time)
When you buy a handgun the store takes the pistol permit. If you buy from a private individual that person is supposed to require and take a permit.
If you have a CCW ID you can use that in leu of a permit.


39 posted on 06/18/2013 9:58:22 AM PDT by Vinnie (][p)
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To: Sherman Logan
To have a booth at a gunshow, as opposed to just attending, does a person need a license? Or can I rent space and sell from my collection despite being unlicensed because I’m not “in the business?”

The show will require any dealer selling firearms at the show to have an FFL, no exceptions. You can still rent a table without an FFL, but you can't sell firearms.

If you have a collection to sell, nothing prevents you from sitting on the parking lot and displaying your wares from the back of your truck. But if you really have a collection to sell I recommend consigning through a reputable dealer or auction house.

40 posted on 06/18/2013 10:00:02 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: jboot
You can still rent a table without an FFL, but you can't sell firearms.

Thanks, that's what I was trying to find out.

41 posted on 06/18/2013 10:01:40 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: jboot; Sherman Logan

>>You can still rent a table without an FFL, but you can’t sell firearms. <<

WRONG! You can still rent a table without an FFL, and you can sell firearms. The show broker will make you sign a form saying that you are not a licensed dealer and you have sold X number of guns in the past 12 months. Most brokers will allow you to sell up to ten guns if you have not sold any guns in the preceding 12 months. Don’t get caught lying on the form! You will go to federal prison.


42 posted on 06/18/2013 10:48:00 AM PDT by B4Ranch (AGENDA: Grinding America Down ----- http://vimeo.com/63749370)
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To: FLAMING DEATH

“It is not trivial to buy a gun on the internet. All of this is the minimum required by law.”

All true, unless....the buyer & seller reside in the same state. I have bought guns on gunbroker.com & it’s a simple transaction in our state. Law enforcement division recommends writing a receipt with both driver’s license numbers to confirm the weapon changing hands, but that’s all.

“Gun show loophole” is liberal poppycock.


43 posted on 06/18/2013 10:49:37 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: killermosquito

>>someone could easily go on the internet and buy guns. Is this true?<<

Yes. Take a look at http://www.armslist.com/classifieds/north-carolina Only buy from or sell to someone who can present identification showing that they are current residents of (in your case) North Carolina. You don’t need to copy any info from their license but make them prove to you that they are current state residents.


44 posted on 06/18/2013 10:52:29 AM PDT by B4Ranch (AGENDA: Grinding America Down ----- http://vimeo.com/63749370)
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To: elcid1970

There is no law saying private individuals must maintain records of gun sales.


45 posted on 06/18/2013 10:53:38 AM PDT by B4Ranch (AGENDA: Grinding America Down ----- http://vimeo.com/63749370)
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To: B4Ranch

Okay. If true, sounds like this is the gunshow loophole they’re complaining about.

Do the firearms you sell using this approach go through any kind of background check?


46 posted on 06/18/2013 10:56:36 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: ExGeeEye
... the state would be required to issue a citizen at least a basic no-frills firearm upon proof of financial hardship.

I don't know how comfortable I'd be with the folks who get issued Obamaphones being issued a firearm at my expense.

47 posted on 06/18/2013 10:56:44 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: B4Ranch

Correct ... BUT it is a good idea to keep records since lawsuits can crop up. I sell from my private collection occasionally and I have taken to getting a driver’s license number to keep alongside the serial number of the ‘tool’ sold. BTW, I have a nice Rockola Carbine I would let go of, for the right price.


48 posted on 06/18/2013 10:57:52 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: B4Ranch

True, but it’s not a bad idea. If a gun I once owned was used in a crime & traced back to me, I would produce the receipt, “Nope, sold that one years ago, check it out.”


49 posted on 06/18/2013 10:58:01 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: Sherman Logan

No, as long as you are selling to a current state resident. Every state has their own laws. Some states want the buyer to get a permit first but the seller doesn’t need permission to sell.


50 posted on 06/18/2013 11:01:22 AM PDT by B4Ranch (AGENDA: Grinding America Down ----- http://vimeo.com/63749370)
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