Posted on 06/18/2013 9:08:35 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
I continuously see claims that "we must close the gunshow loophole" in the MSM. But on FR most people seem to assume there is no such loophole.
I've tried to research exactly what this loophole is supposed to be, but one side seems to take its existence as self-evident and therefore needing no definition, and the other as an equally obvious negative.
I would really appreciate an explanation of what this loophole is supposed to be, and perhaps of why it isn't one.
Speak for yourself. I adamantly oppose ANY federal firearms laws.
The FFL system is an enabling device for outlawing all private transfers of firearms. Here in Kalifornia, EVERY firearm I have ever purchased is in state government records. Without the existing FFL system, it would have been very difficult for Kalifornia to set up a system of licensed dealers.
To go even further, I adamantly oppose ANY law which requires the existence of serial numbers on firearms. Again, serial numbers are an enabling device for virtually all gun control laws. Can you imagine the government violating the First Amendment by requiring serial numbers on books?
When a private person sells a firearm to a FFL Dealer at a show, is the seller required to have a background check?
In some states a person who is not an FFL can sell a gun to someone he believes to be a resident of his state and has no reason to believe is a felon. In some states that means he can go to a gunshow and sell a gun, usually by walking around with it. So no, there isn’t really a “gun show loophole”, he is just doing something at a gunshow that he could do outside the gunshow. This is only legal in some states.
The internet sales thing is just a lie. It might be technically legal to sell a gun to someone who lives in the same state as you, if you are not an FFL, even if they contacted you on the internet, but no one would. The auction sites don’t allow that sort of thing and online gunsellers are all FFL’s who only ship to FFL’s.
The Nazis want to stop ALL private gun sales... this is their foot into the door. That is all anyone needs to know.
LLS
Longer version: If you are buying from a private individual at a gun show, it's no different from buying a gun from a friend or neighbor.
If you are buying from a FFL (federal firearms license) holder at a gun show, they must perform all the steps required for a retain transaction.
At a typical gun show, the overwhelming majority of sales are by FFL holders -- as in about 90%. Only a handful are private individuals selling guns from their private collection.
The ATF is pretty stringent about what constitutes selling from a private collection, and buying/selling firearms as a business. If you are pretending to do the former, and are actually doing the latter, they will come down on you. And, they do "patrol" the gun shows looking for people like that.
If they require private sellers to go through FFL holders to sell a gun at a gun show, they'll simply drive those sellers away from gun shows and selling them elsewhere. The problem: a gun show is a secure place to sell your collection. You don't have to worry about meeting someone unknown to you to sell a gun, and you don't have to advertise to the world that you have a gun to sell.
Of course, the real goal is to track all private transfers. In some states, that's already happening. But, the reality is that very few firearms used in crime are acquired through legitimate means, either from a FFL holder or a private individual that legally owned the firearm.
Within state, yes. If I meet a guy on a forum who has a gun to sell, I can meet him face to face, and buy/ sell within boundaries of law.
Never been to a gun show, never bought a firearm over the counter, never filled out an ATF form. Nobody knows what I have, or where it came from, and I like to keep the powers to be guessing. I may have nothing, and I’m just blowing smoke up you a$$, or I may have enough to supply a small army. That’s for me to know, and hopefully, for you to never have to find out.
Hear, hear!
Also: if the Second Amendment were treated as solemnly as the Fifth, the state would be required to issue a citizen at least a basic no-frills firearm upon proof of financial hardship.
I didn’t, when I sold mine.
So if someone steals your firearm how do you prove it’s yours if there are no serial numbers?
Statistically, I’ve wondered how many guns obtained by LEO’s from active shooters at crime scenes were actually purchased by the perp from a gun show. Not one they probably stole from someone who bought it at a gun show.
There is a parking lot loophole. Any redneck can just go buy an evil SUV from anybody else even if they dont have a license. Then that SUV might go kill somebody. They can even park the unregistered vehicle at their house and never ever register it.
Using the term Gun show loophole is kind of like the left calling republicans evil or bad. The terms are meaningless to an atheist. Even using the law as a moral standard doesnt work because leftists don’t have to follow laws they disagree with. They call it sticking it to the man or speaking truth to power. No rules for me and our shifting rules for thee.
1. There is no loophole per se. All guns sold by dealers at gun shows must be transferred according to all applicable state and federal laws, including background checks and waiting periods if applicable.
1B. The "exception" occurs when a private citizen takes a privately owned gun to a gun show and sells it to another person in a private sale. This is no different from putting an ad for your gun in the newspaper and having someone stop by and buy it from you.
2. Internet gun sales are regulated the same as in-person gun sales. If you but a gun on the internet, it must be transferred via an FFL according to all applicable state and federal laws, including background checks and waiting periods if applicable. If anything it is tougher than buying in person.
That about sums it up. Of course, if you get a C&R license you can get certain guns delivered right to your front door without any paperwork. Just don't tell the libs.
“Speak for yourself. I adamantly oppose ANY federal firearms laws.”
......shall not be infringed.
Thanks all for your replies.
Let’s see if I have this straight.
If I meet another person attending a gun show and we strike up a conversation and make a deal that’s no different from my selling something to a friend or neighbor. Just a place where people who might be interested in such sales are likely to run into each other.
Here’s my followup stupid question. To have a booth at a gunshow, as opposed to just attending, does a person need a license? Or can I rent space and sell from my collection despite being unlicensed because I’m not “in the business?”
I can scratch an identifying mark on it and take a picture. Whatever I might do, it should be my business and not the governments.
I have very much less concern that my gun will be stolen by someone I don't know versus having it confiscated by government.
I did have some firearms stolen from me years ago, (embezzled, actually) and I refused to have the detective on the case notify ATF. I would rather eat broken glass than involve the baby-killers. The serial numbers did assist in getting my guns back, but the guns would never have been lost if not for Kalifornia's unconstitutional gun laws.
That said, most FFLs won't touch a gun that they have reason to believe is "hot" with a 10 foot pole.
Purchasing a firearm varies somewhat from state to state.
Here in NC there is no ‘gun show loophole’.
Long guns purchased from an individual, nothing required.
From store/ gun show vendor, NCIC check.
Handguns go through NCIC plus checked through a pistol permit gotten at the Sheriff’s office . They run a separate check. (you apply for and get the permits ahead of time, $5 each. You can get as many as 5 at a time)
When you buy a handgun the store takes the pistol permit. If you buy from a private individual that person is supposed to require and take a permit.
If you have a CCW ID you can use that in leu of a permit.
The show will require any dealer selling firearms at the show to have an FFL, no exceptions. You can still rent a table without an FFL, but you can't sell firearms.
If you have a collection to sell, nothing prevents you from sitting on the parking lot and displaying your wares from the back of your truck. But if you really have a collection to sell I recommend consigning through a reputable dealer or auction house.
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