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Poor Quality Ammuniton due to Shortage Blows up 1911 Kimber (YouTube video, 7m36s)
YouTube ^ | April, 2013

Posted on 07/30/2013 10:07:35 PM PDT by LibWhacker

Click here for video (7 min, 36 sec)


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Hobbies; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: ammo; banglist; poor; quality; reloading; shortage
Be careful out there!
1 posted on 07/30/2013 10:07:36 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

It’s very easy to overload cartridges for semiauto pistols, the only thing containing the pressure is the back end of the barrel. Don’t try to save money on motor oil, condoms, or ammo for semiauto pistols.....


2 posted on 07/30/2013 10:19:04 PM PDT by varmintman
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To: LibWhacker

I have a neighbor who did the same thing with a Kimber.

He is the son of my father’s closest friend. And he is a mechanical engineer.

He reloaded some ammo and measured powder with a new scale. Only problem was, he loaded more than 2X the amount of powder the maximum load specified.

It was a wonder he was not killed. The pistol was a total loss. He had a slight wound to the ear.


3 posted on 07/30/2013 10:23:51 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, since then a State in the US, but it is Still Texas where I live.)
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To: LibWhacker
My call is detonation.

I used a lot of win296 in 44mag, 240 gr hard cast Keith SWC. A low density charge creates a bomb, and it doesn't take much of an error. A load I recall was 24.5 grains and down around 20 grains you were entering dangerous territory. Too much powder in that scenario would just blow on out behind the projectile.

4 posted on 07/30/2013 10:27:15 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Texas Fossil
Using Bullseye when the load calls for something else will really get your attention. I've seen a lot of scary guesswork in my day.

I watched a guy shooting a nice MDL 27.

After every cylinder he would bend over the bench and we would hear a bunch of tapping noises as he tapped out each fired case.

That gun was shot loose before it fired 300 rounds, out of time and spitting lead at the gap..

5 posted on 07/30/2013 10:35:14 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Texas Fossil

Had a buddy do same with a Norinco 1911A1.... Loaded 9 gr of 231 vs 4.5 and the thing sounded like super vel’s of days gone by ..... But stayed together long enough to sell it to me.... Still running strong but that 9grs of 231 is a rocket ....:o)

I reload and or weigh all my carry ammo, my reloading room has a dehumidifier and is air conditioned for a perfect 0% humidity and 70 degrees temperature ..... Commercial ammo is always suspect IMO.

Components stored properly last for decades. Roll yer own folks.

Stay safe !...:o)


6 posted on 07/30/2013 10:46:56 PM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Yes, caution is in order.

Good to hear from you. Are you feeling better?


7 posted on 07/30/2013 10:46:58 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, since then a State in the US, but it is Still Texas where I live.)
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To: Squantos

Thanks.

And, it is sometimes hard to stay safe today. Looks like it will be worse in the future.


8 posted on 07/30/2013 10:50:17 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, since then a State in the US, but it is Still Texas where I live.)
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To: varmintman

In particular, be careful if shooting reloads from a Glock.

Glocks don’t support part of the case wall, and that integral ramp gives them some of their great reliability, but also makes then sensitive to reloads.

If you do shoot reloads from a Glock, mark where the unsupported part of the casing was, and be sure that it is supported when the reload is fired. After a second reload and firing you don’t have a safe way to fire a reload, and most of the cartridge case wall has been unsupported in one firing or another.

If the case wall gives out, it puts the gasses down into your hand. The .40 S&W has a particularly bad reputation because of its high pressure.


9 posted on 07/30/2013 10:52:00 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Good to see you up and posting. That was nice of your daughter to give us a heads up.


10 posted on 07/30/2013 10:59:07 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Squantos

I just picked up 600 rounds of Remington Golden Saber nickel plated brass .357 magnum, 125 gr JHPs. I paid over a dollar a round for it. Not real happy about it but you gotta get what you can when you can these days. Any thoughts about the nickel plated brass as far as reloading?


11 posted on 07/30/2013 11:10:47 PM PDT by RC one
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To: Texas Fossil
A little, just worn out and tired of being messed with. They wanted to keep me a few more days but I've got no more places to stick new needles.

I see no reason to test for stuff I can't be cured of anyway, things just get too complicated.

They woke me up at 1 AM Sunday, gonna haul me down for a scan to see If I had a clot in a lung. I refused. Asked them what they would do if they found a clot, they said use Heparin to dissolve it. I asked them why we couldn't just do that and spare the 1000 dollar scan. Later that day a nurse came in and gave me a shot of Heparin.

I've got insurance but it's at the point where my copay for meds is almost full retail, all my coverage has gone to tests.

They did cancel a few prescriptions I was on, I suspect part of my problem this time was collateral damage from all the pills.

I'm sorry I couldn't see those EMTs hauling me through the woods out to where they left the ambulance, if a gator had crossed the trail they would still be running.

12 posted on 07/30/2013 11:11:25 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: RC one

The nickel is no problem, just use good lube as usual.


13 posted on 07/30/2013 11:13:01 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Texas Fossil

Powder burns, or hearing damage?


14 posted on 07/30/2013 11:14:22 PM PDT by wastedyears (One nation, under wub. Saints Row IV)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

What’s the danger with loading too little powder?


15 posted on 07/30/2013 11:15:37 PM PDT by wastedyears (One nation, under wub. Saints Row IV)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

I have read that it will split before non nickle plated brass. I do not know myself and I do not recall ever having reloaded with it plus it has been a few years since I reloaded. I just got a 686+ and a 327 nightguard and I already have a 340 PD so, at a dollar a round, I pretty much have to reload for .357 at this point.


16 posted on 07/30/2013 11:35:44 PM PDT by RC one
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

nickel I mean.


17 posted on 07/30/2013 11:36:44 PM PDT by RC one
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To: Texas Fossil

At least ya know now I mean well....:o)

Nite !


18 posted on 07/30/2013 11:50:33 PM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: RC one

Doable .... About 3 to 4 times with close check of your brass each time.

Starline is my first choice of brass. Good quality.

Right now I have slowed my range day to every other week and just two boxes out of my concealed carry rig only. Dove season is around the corner so cleaning up the MEC for dove loads for my old Model 12 Winchester this next few weekends.

Hope yer well, buy what ya can find. Expensive yet a lesson to never again think supply won’t run out.

Stay safe !


19 posted on 07/30/2013 11:57:56 PM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: wastedyears

If you watch the video, the guy clearly explains why a load that’s “too light” is dangerous.

To use an over simplified analogy, it’s like a half-full gas can. One that’s half full, is far more dangerous and likely to explode than one that’s all the way full.

The “light” load doesn’t give an even steady “burn” but rather a sudden “boom.”

At least that’s the way my rather non-scientific mind understands it.


20 posted on 07/31/2013 1:34:31 AM PDT by shibumi (Cover it with gas and set it on fire.)
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To: wastedyears

It can detonate instead of burning at a controlled rate. The ideal is having powder burn as long as it can add velocity to the bullet. If the burn peak is too early chamber pressure can go wild overcoming bullet inertia and friction. Use a good handbook, make sure the components are correct and follow directions. It takes a lot of expensive technology to do your own research and it ain’t worth it!


21 posted on 07/31/2013 2:26:58 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: wastedyears
It occurred to me that if you don't reload you might not know how much pressure is involved. Thing is when the numbers are already normally high any variation can become a problem. Precision is absolutely vital.

These are STANDARD loads in pounds per square inch.

cup just refers to the type of gauge used to measure, in most cases a crushable copper pellet of known hardness. It is placed in a hole in the chamber against the cartridge case. When the test load is fired it blows out the case wall and crushes the pellet. Measuring the amount the pellet is compressed and doing some math (actually, there are charts) gives you the pressure figure.

Even the old .38 S&W is over 14,000 psi

Photo & Video Sharing by SmugMug

22 posted on 07/31/2013 2:47:30 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: LibWhacker
Three words. RCBS Lockout Die
23 posted on 07/31/2013 3:06:53 AM PDT by Red in Blue PA (When Injustice becomes Law, Resistance Becomes Duty.-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER; wastedyears

On low powder loads, the powder will lay out in the bottom of the casing or brass and leave an air space from front to back. When the primer is ignited, it will not burn the powder from primer end to bullet end like it should, but flash the powder all at once which results in very high pressures like Swampsniper is talking about.

To fix this, in the early days of of low powder charges, a thin layer of tissue paper or wad paper would be used to capture the powder at the primer end. You could load up some sub sonic rounds this way. PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH BEFORE TRYING... There are powders out there now that replace having to do this.

Back in my younger days (around 13-14 yrs old)with my brother in law (before he was my brother in law) we use to reload some 06 loads for rabbit hunting that we would shoot out of his dads Garands using this method. Would not cycle, but were extremly low velocity. We could load these up for almost the cost of 22 long cartridge back in the day and were as quiet as a 22 long.


24 posted on 07/31/2013 4:20:50 AM PDT by eartick (Been to the line in the sand and liked it)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Always interesting how low the published pressures are for 8x57.

I think it’s an American industry nod to the 1888 Commision rifle issues, as European pressures are much higher and the ‘98 actions can handle the higher pressures.


25 posted on 07/31/2013 4:27:40 AM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER; RC one

Carbide dies. I’ve had lube foul the powder (yes, I used too much). I hate lube - it’s messy, many opportunities for too much or too little (scratches those beautiful nickel cases), and it’s an extra step. There’s no choice for rifle cases of course. Just MHO


26 posted on 07/31/2013 4:42:49 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (Buck Off, Bronco Bama)
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To: Hardastarboard

Lee makes some lube that is great, it’s based on the lube they use for forming automotive panels. It dries flaky, a little bit won’t hurt powder.


27 posted on 07/31/2013 4:52:15 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: wastedyears

I have seen no evidence of powder burns, but it was a while after it happened before I heard about it. As far as hearing damage, I think he already had some damage.

He is lucky to have not been killed.


28 posted on 07/31/2013 5:08:06 AM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, since then a State in the US, but it is Still Texas where I live.)
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To: Hardastarboard

I have always used carbide dies for straight walled pistol rounds. I hate messing with lube too. Now if I could just find 158 gr JHPs.


29 posted on 07/31/2013 5:13:07 AM PDT by RC one
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

You are still in my prayers my FRiend.

I like you attitude.

I have been taking care of sick family member for many years. I hate hospitals.

Hope life is settling back down for you. Tell your daughter thanks for keeping us informed.

-Dave


30 posted on 07/31/2013 5:16:03 AM PDT by Texas Fossil (Once a Republic, since then a State in the US, but it is Still Texas where I live.)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

The CTA chest to rule out PE is expensive, but in the long run probably would have saved you money, or your life. If done and it showed a clot, you would be on heparin or lovenox (sq) in the hospital and before discharge started on coumadin and continue on that for at least 6 months. Eventually your clot would have dissolved and your life saved. If no clot, no anticoagulants, which saves you the possibility of gastric bleeding, need for further testing (endoscopy, etc...), more admissions, receiving blood, etc.... I’m a RN at a major Central Florida Hospital. I have personally coded a patient (not mine) that was a post op colon resection. He got up to use the restroom and collapsed on the floor. We worked on him for close to an hour. He was in his early 50’s, married (wife in room) and had children. An autopsey was later done and cause of death was Pulmonary Embolim. That was 15 years ago. Nowdays, it is standard to start most post op surgical patients on a chemical blood thinner (heparin, lovenox, arixtra, etc...) post op day 1. We admit patients with no history at all of clots who come in with DVT’s (legs) or that have migrated to the lungs (PE). If a PE is suspected, a CTA chest or VQ scan is ordered, along with dopplers of the legs (that’s where they usually start, then break off and travel to the lungs). Treatment is usually to place on heparin sq or iv, lovenox, or arixtra (usually given for patient with heparin induced thrombocytopenia). Take the test is my advice. Your doctors can then plan your treatment accordingly. What state\hospital were you in? Phil


31 posted on 07/31/2013 5:23:32 AM PDT by Philsworld
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
Been using One Shot spray lube for rifle cases, spray ‘em and let it dry. Seems to work pretty good.

Long as I remember loading data for H110/W296 warned against reducing the charge weight. My pet load is 24 gr of H110 and 240 gr jacketed HP or FP. Very accurate and potent.

Glad your doing better!

32 posted on 07/31/2013 5:30:13 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER
I hadn't seen or heard of that. Thanks for the tip. I like a lube I bought that comes in a little tin, texture like Chapstick, that requires a very minimal amount to lube the cases. You have to put it on with your fingers, so it's a bit messy, but there is essentially no chance of fouling your powder (still have to be careful about contaminating primers because I think it's petroleum based).

The RCBS stuff works, but it's way too easy to put too much on and either foul the powder or dent the case neck with rifle cases. At least it is for me. :-(

33 posted on 07/31/2013 6:14:41 AM PDT by Hardastarboard (Buck Off, Bronco Bama)
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To: LibWhacker

Detonation is the result of a small amount of powder lighting off and sticking a bullet in the barrel. The main charge then goes off and produces huge pressures because it cannot move the bullet quickly enough. This is per Hodgdon which reproduced the effect in their
lab which is the best operation in the US.

I use black powder for all my short loads because it is predictable but the techniques are different than are used for smokeless those techniques cannot be used for smokeless.
I would suggest researching techniques used at www.castboolits.gunloads.com before doing anything with short loads. And ask about specific loads in your model of gun. There are lots of chemists and engineers on the board and you should read their answers very carefully as many are quite expert.

Short loads are done with fast pistol powders because they are flakes and all of the powder goes into the air when the primer goes off and the powder explodes at the same time. Use of filler such as upholstery batting is highly reccomend as it interrupts any large shock wave that may develop.

There is much bad information about this subject on the internet, especially youtube, and I would disregard it except for castboolits.

W296 is specifically placarded against short loads and I would not use it for that purpose.

I am not an expert compared to many with whom I correspond but this is simply the short version that doesn’t venture into the real technical issues which must be accounted for.


34 posted on 07/31/2013 7:29:23 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: Hardastarboard
 photo LUBE_zps42a4fdbc.jpg
35 posted on 07/31/2013 7:55:57 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Good stuff.


36 posted on 07/31/2013 8:01:40 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: Squantos
Fast burning powders like Bullseye absolutely require visual inspection of the charged cases before bullet seating, because a double charge will not overflow the case. I have a very powerful LED lamp that I use for this operation. I've never found a double charge, but I did catch an empty case once or twice over the years.

"If in doubt, dump it out!"

37 posted on 07/31/2013 8:01:46 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: buffaloguy

It won’t dent cases, never had a stuck case, can’t beat that!


38 posted on 07/31/2013 8:37:57 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

No you can’t beat it. Cheap and good.


39 posted on 07/31/2013 8:39:28 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: jboot

Make a “dipstick”, use something like balsa wood and use sealer on it.


40 posted on 07/31/2013 8:40:01 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Squantos

>>I reload and or weigh all my carry ammo<<

Smart thinking.


41 posted on 07/31/2013 8:43:48 AM PDT by B4Ranch (AGENDA: Grinding America Down ----- http://vimeo.com/63749370)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Not a bad idea, either. A double charge of fast burning powder will ruin your day.


42 posted on 07/31/2013 9:55:48 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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To: jboot

I’ve seen it done!


43 posted on 07/31/2013 9:56:54 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: jboot; B4Ranch

Agree .... Good points all !

Stay safe !


44 posted on 07/31/2013 10:35:25 AM PDT by Squantos ( Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet ...)
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To: RC one

My experience is that the nickle cases develop cracks at the case mouth sooner than unplated cases. My guess is that it work hardens faster than brass.


45 posted on 07/31/2013 10:42:03 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Tijeras_Slim
My experience is that the nickel cases develop cracks at the case mouth sooner than unplated cases

Same here. I have several thousand nickel-plated UMC cases gathered from police ranges back in the sixties. It is good for only two or at most three reloads before the case mouth fails. Moreover, I've seen some very spectacular failures in these cases. Several of them have come out of the cylinder in pieces. There is no way I'd use them in a semiauto.

46 posted on 07/31/2013 11:19:57 AM PDT by jboot (It can happen here because it IS happening here.)
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