Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Origin of Kalash inferred with Eurogenes K=10 "test" calculator
Dodecad 'blog ^ | Monday, October 31, 2011 | Dienekes

Posted on 08/03/2013 3:18:58 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

Why are the Kalash important?
There are three reasons why the Kalash are important in the study of Eurasian prehistory:
  1. Their mountainous habitat contributed to isolation and relative immunity from historical population movements
  2. Their non-Islamic religion has definitely preserved them from recent gene inflow
  3. Their language is unique within the Indo-Aryan family, and it often considered today as part of a separate Dardic family of Indo-Iranian in addition to the more populous Iranian and Indo-Aryan families.
The Kalash are crucial for those interested in the origins of Indo-Iranians, and the fact that they are, indeed, a simple West/South Asian mix is not without significance for that question.

(Excerpt) Read more at dodecad.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: alexanderthegreat; blackpagans; dardic; epigraphyandlanguage; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; hindukush; kalash; nuristani
Origin of Kalash inferred with Eurogenes K=10

1 posted on 08/03/2013 3:18:58 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

ChromoPainter/fineSTRUCTURE analysis of select South Asian/West Eurasian populations
February 22, 2012
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/02/chromopainterfinestructure-analysis-of.html

This is the final result of the analysis mentioned in this previous post on the Kalash, using all 22 chromosomes.

Due to the quadratic running time of ChromoPainter, I took a random sample of 15 individuals from every included population with more than15 individuals. The final set included 392 individuals. It appears that a set of ~400 individuals/~260k SNPs can be processed in about 2 weeks on a single thread.


2 posted on 08/03/2013 3:20:05 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

Alexander’s soldiers left no mark
By Razib Khan | July 30, 2013 12:28 am
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/?p=22140#.Ufq-cqwpgZ8

[snip] In the case of a group such as the Kalash of Pakistan this conjecture is supported by the exotic nature of their religion, which seems to be Indo-European, and similar to Vedic Hinduism, with minimal influence from Islam. [/snip]


3 posted on 08/03/2013 3:21:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

I wonder if the Kalash are just “Crackers” to Rev. Al.


4 posted on 08/03/2013 3:21:42 PM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

The obvious fact is, one generation of Macedonian or Greek paternity would be expected to entirely or nearly vanish after more than 2000 years of local hookups, and there’s nothing that these DNA studies can do but confirm that fact — they can’t be used to refute these legends, which originate *with* the Kalash themselves. Also, they claim to worship Apollo, which is pretty hard to explain, what with literally no one else still doing that. :’)

Kalash “A Lost Greek Tribe”
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kalash-A-Lost-Greek-Tribe/326627204121081

The Kalash People — A Lost Greek Tribe
http://n1999k.blogspot.com/2012/08/nikos-deja-vu-kalash-people-lost-greek.html

Alexander’s lost children
http://mondediplo.com/2010/08/12macedonia

KALASH - THE LOST TRIBE OF HINDU KUSH
http://aribi-world.blogspot.com/2010/12/kalash-lost-tribe-of-hindu-kush.html

Roman Mithraic Mysteries and Armenia cult of Mithra
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PIEreligion/message/2456


5 posted on 08/03/2013 3:28:26 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Harappa Ancestry Project sounds cool, but I don’t understand the website contents.


6 posted on 08/03/2013 3:28:56 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: vladimir998

They’re called the Black Pagans of Hindu Kush, but that wouldn’t stop Not-Too-Sharpton.


7 posted on 08/03/2013 3:29:50 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Renfield; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...

Thanks Renfield.

8 posted on 08/03/2013 3:30:24 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Kalash tribal girl (South Asia).

9 posted on 08/03/2013 3:35:29 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Fascinating stuff, even though much of it’s beyond me.


10 posted on 08/03/2013 4:03:06 PM PDT by Standing Wolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/indo/dardic.html

Though Dardic and Nuristani languages are considered by the majority of linguists as two separate groups of languages, they are very close in structure and in vocabulary, and can be described together. Moreover, they have common origin and they are both spoken in one mountainous region in the Gindukush mountains.

In fact, Dardic and Nuristani languages originate back to the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-European family. Nowadays their speakers, mainly peasants in Northern Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, make about 4 million people (Dardic) and 150 thousand people (Nuristani).


11 posted on 08/03/2013 4:08:47 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

New Indo-European Language Discovered
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2898019/posts

...Burushaski, which is spoken by about 90,000 people who reside in a remote area of Pakistan, is Indo-European in origin... based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis... most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages... most probably ancient Phrygian... according to ancient legends of the Burushaski (or Burusho) people, they are descendants of Alexander the Great.


12 posted on 08/03/2013 4:10:39 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: BenLurkin

[singing] they call it Harappa, ah ah ah, you know what they’re aftah...


13 posted on 08/03/2013 4:14:39 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett

Intriguing mix.


14 posted on 08/03/2013 4:57:23 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

“Kalash religion is similar to the religion that was practiced by Rigvedic aryans. Kalash have retained most of the Proto-Indo-Iranian religion (Indo-European religion).”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people#Religion
cite: “pace FUSSMAN 1977”


15 posted on 08/03/2013 5:13:06 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Wow, what a treasure to study these people. My friend learned Quichua so he could speak to those people.


16 posted on 08/03/2013 5:26:41 PM PDT by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

If they did come from Alexander’s army, then judging by the picture of the girl—this would confirm reports that the greeks were a much more aryan people in the 1st millenium than they are today.


17 posted on 08/03/2013 5:40:52 PM PDT by ckilmer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BenLurkin

The Vedic religion revolved around the use of soma (a plant that grows in Central Asia where it’s dry, no monsoons), cannibis, and opium (that should fire up some people around here). If the Kalash do that, I’ll buy that Wikiclaim. :’) Otherwise, nah, not so much. The religious life of India (and their language is Indo-European after all) has been a polyglot riot for three thousand years, at least, so it’s not surprising that they’d have picked up a few things. The reverence for the horse was also characteristics of the Aryans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people#Genetic_origins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people#Ritual
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo#Etymology
[snip] Apollo would be the god of flocks and herds. [/snip]


18 posted on 08/03/2013 5:43:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: ckilmer

The much older (and deeper in the interior) Urumchi Mummies also show fair hair and fair skin (and are tall) — also, a lot of people have, uh, had liaisons in Central Asia over the course of recent centuries. IOW, it’s difficult to believe such a thing would endure over 2000 years, not least because that’s not a typical look for a Kalash.

Fair haired characteristics among the Homeric Greeks — Helen of Troy/Sparta is described that way, fwiw — is rare.

The Celts had entered Europe as early as 1000 BC (perhaps much earlier) and around 400 BC expanded into Gaul (France), Germany, Poland, etc, and down into the Balkans, and finally into Anatolia, taking the old Phrygian area which was called Galatia as a consequence.


19 posted on 08/03/2013 6:02:58 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: ckilmer; SunkenCiv

Alexander’s soldiers left no mark

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/07/alexanders-soldiers-left-no-mark/

It is well known that Alexander the Great invaded the Indus river valley. Coincidentally in the mountains shadowing this region are isolated groups of tribal populations whose physical appearance is at at variance with South Asians. In particular, they are much lighter skinned, and often blonde or blue eyed. Naturally this led to 19th and early 20th century speculation that they were lost white races, perhaps descended from some of the Macedonian soldiers of Alexander. This was partly the basis of the Rudyard Kipling novel The Man Who Would Be King. Naturally over time some of these people themselves have forwarded this idea. In the case of a group such as the Kalash of Pakistan this conjecture is supported by the exotic nature of their religion, which seems to be Indo-European, and similar to Vedic Hinduism, with minimal influence from Islam.

Kalash girl, Credit: Dave Watts

The major problem with this set of theses is that they are wrong. And the reason I bring up this tired old idea is that many people, including Wikipedia apparently, do not know that this is wrong. I’ve had correspondents sincerely bringing up this model, and, I’ve seen it presented by scholars offhand during talks. There are many historical genetic issues which remain mysterious, or tendentious. This is not one of them. There are hundreds of thousands of SNPs of the Kalash and Burusho distributed to the public. If you want to know how these populations stack up genetically, analyze them yourself. I know that they aren’t related to Macedonians because I have plenty of European population data sets, and I have plenty of South Asian ones. The peoples of the hills of Pakistan are clearly part of the continuum of the latter, albeit shifted toward Iranian peoples.

Those seeking further proof, and unable to analyze the data themselves for any reason, can check out my posts on the topic:

- The Kalash in perspective

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/the-kalash-in-perspective/#.UfdK69__5KA

- Kalash on the human tree

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/kalash-on-the-human-tree/#.Uf2ppGS9Kc1


20 posted on 08/03/2013 6:10:43 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett

Very pretty girl, but looks like she’d just about as soon kick yer ass as not.


21 posted on 08/03/2013 6:14:31 PM PDT by tomkat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett

As I said, without identifying and getting good samples from ancient remains of Kalash ancestors, all the genetic studies can show us is, what exists now. That’s it.

It isn’t surprising that a single generation of soldiers passing through left little in the DNA (although there is stuff there, again, it could have arrived with Russian soldiers, British Imperial soldiers, etc) after 2300 years.

That was the source I was sent, but I didn’t use it because it is so obviously relying on genetic studies to come to an unwarranted conclusion, then acting as if that settles everything.


22 posted on 08/03/2013 6:27:49 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: 1010RD

Dan Quayle? [ducks, runs]


23 posted on 08/03/2013 6:28:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Valid points!


24 posted on 08/03/2013 7:08:25 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Did the Kalash invent the Kalashnikov? A few of those might have persuaded the Macedonian army to take a different route.


25 posted on 08/03/2013 7:46:59 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Verginius Rufus

The Macedonian army couldn’t have survived repeat large scale onslaughts if they had decided to invade India proper, instead of slowing the advance and turning around after the encounter with the army of what was essentially a border outpost chiefdom, under Porus (whose bravery inspired Alexander to declare him an ally).


After Aornos, Alexander crossed the Indus and fought and won an epic battle against King Porus, who ruled a region in the Punjab, in the Battle of the Hydaspes in 326 BC. Alexander was impressed by Porus’s bravery, and made him an ally. He appointed Porus as satrap, and added to Porus’ territory land that he did not previously own. Choosing a local helped him control these lands so distant from Greece. Alexander founded two cities on opposite sides of the Hydaspes river, naming one Bucephala, in honor of his horse, who died around this time. The other was Nicaea (Victory), thought to be located at the site of modern day Mong, Punjab.

East of Porus’ kingdom, near the Ganges River, were the Nanda Empire of Magadha and further east the Gangaridai Empire of Bengal. Fearing the prospect of facing other large armies and exhausted by years of campaigning, Alexander’s army mutinied at the Hyphasis River (Beas), refusing to march farther east. This river thus marks the easternmost extent of Alexander’s conquests.

As for the Macedonians, however, their struggle with Porus blunted their courage and stayed their further advance into India. For having had all they could do to repulse an enemy who mustered only twenty thousand infantry and two thousand horse, they violently opposed Alexander when he insisted on crossing the river Ganges also, the width of which, as they learned, was thirty-two furlongs, its depth a hundred fathoms, while its banks on the further side were covered with multitudes of men-at-arms and horsemen and elephants. For they were told that the kings of the Ganderites and Praesii were awaiting them with eighty thousand horsemen, two hundred thousand footmen, eight thousand chariots, and six thousand war elephants.

Alexander tried to persuade his soldiers to march farther, but his general Coenus pleaded with him to change his opinion and return; the men, he said, “longed to again see their parents, their wives and children, their homeland”. Alexander eventually agreed and turned south, marching along the Indus.

- Wiki (references at link).

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_campaign_of_Alexander_the_Great


26 posted on 08/03/2013 10:20:44 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Verginius Rufus

Maybe, but the A-Man was pretty stubborn.


27 posted on 08/03/2013 10:58:05 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett

Thanks JCB!


28 posted on 08/03/2013 11:25:51 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: James C. Bennett

thanks JCB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwrl2hPSFWA&list=PL553EC9956EE1DB23&index=26


29 posted on 08/03/2013 11:42:08 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Good night, Mrs. Kalash, wherever you are . . .


30 posted on 08/06/2013 4:38:53 PM PDT by colorado tanker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson