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Theological Question. When is Judgement?

Posted on 08/09/2013 12:16:56 PM PDT by MNDude

Here's a question I was thinking about. Whenever someone who is believed to have salvation dies, we're always told "they're in a better place now". Whenever a person who doesn't seem to have salvation, we always seem assume they're in hell at that time.

But the Bible talks about judgement day, and how some will enter heaven and some will enter the Lake of Fire. Catholic and Lutheran (and probably others) recite "I believe He shall come to judge the living and the dead"

So, my question, when is judgement for the dead? Are the dead in heaven just thinking "I just know I'm going to get thrown in the Lake of Fire as soon as Judgement Day comes" Those in heaven are called out for a day for Judgement Day and then are sent back?

If they are already in Heaven and Hell as soon as they die, doesn't that mean judgement has already taken place?


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Religion
KEYWORDS: religion

1 posted on 08/09/2013 12:16:57 PM PDT by MNDude
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To: MNDude

When you least expect it, I’m informed...


2 posted on 08/09/2013 12:20:08 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Mass murder and cannibalism are the twin sacraments of socialism - "Who-whom?"-Lenin)
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To: MNDude

Every second of every minute of every hour of your life.


3 posted on 08/09/2013 12:22:09 PM PDT by MestaMachine (My caps work, You gotta earn them.)
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To: MNDude

About a nano second after you post anything on FR!


4 posted on 08/09/2013 12:24:42 PM PDT by Kartographer ("We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor.")
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To: MNDude

You’ve gotten my curiousity - I’m going to read the thread with interest.

I honestly don’t know THE answer.


5 posted on 08/09/2013 12:27:33 PM PDT by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet)
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To: MNDude

Time and Space means something to us, but God is outside both Time and Space. The question of “Are the dead waiting?” doesn’t have any meaning if you are no longer within our time-oriented world-view. This before that? or after that? I don’t think the question makes any sense at all.


6 posted on 08/09/2013 12:29:04 PM PDT by ClearCase_guy (21st century. I'm not a fan.)
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To: MNDude

http://www.openbible.info/topics/judgment_day

81 Bible Verses about Judgment Day

http://www.christianpost.com/news/the-real-judgment-days-50391/

The Real Judgment Days


7 posted on 08/09/2013 12:51:31 PM PDT by BwanaNdege ("To learn who rules over you simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize"- Voltaire)
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To: ClearCase_guy
I agree and could not have said it better.

Why doesn't God give us all the answers to our "Why God?" pleas? Simple, the full answer would blow our minds.

8 posted on 08/09/2013 12:51:36 PM PDT by 5thGenTexan
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To: MNDude

Well, I’m no theologian, but my belief is that when a saved person dies, he goes to heaven immediately.

When a lost person dies, he goes to Hell (Hades) to await judgment. Once you die, your eternal abode is fixed.

When judgment day comes, the lost are removed from Hell and thrown into the Lake of Fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I confess that I do not know about the saved. Perhaps this is when they receive their crowns.


9 posted on 08/09/2013 12:57:21 PM PDT by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: MNDude
There are two judgments: the Particular Judgment and the General Judgment.

The Particular Judgment comes right after you die. You are either saved or damned. The damned go to Hell; the saved go to either Heaven or, temporarily, to Limbo (a state of being in which you are purified of the temporal stains of sin.) Meanwhile, for all, their souls are separated from their bodies, which are still in the grave.

The General or Second Judgment comes at the end of time. All of the dead, without exception, are raised, and souls are rejoined to bodies. At that time, everybody sees and witnesses everybody's judgment; all the hidden sins of every person are displayed; this time, it is Heaven or Hell only.

It is Jesus who will judge the living and the dead. The details are in Matthew 25.

10 posted on 08/09/2013 1:04:00 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("See something, say something.")
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now


11 posted on 08/09/2013 1:14:38 PM PDT by stranger and pilgrim
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To: MNDude

Judgment Day happens for all after the Day of the LORD. Flesh is not involved when this ‘day’ comes. No soul/spirit goes to ‘court’ on judgment day, confused, deceived, or ignorant. All souls/spirits will earn their earned reward come ‘judgment day’.


12 posted on 08/09/2013 1:25:14 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: MNDude

Next Thursday.

Actually I tend to think the soul is dealt with by God upon death, although I’ve struggled with that question before. Also, the concept of time may be completely different in the afterlife.


13 posted on 08/09/2013 1:36:12 PM PDT by MacMattico
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To: MacMattico
My theory is that the judgment will seem instantaneous for those who die. Sort of like being put under for surgery and waking up in recovery seems instantaneous for a patient.
14 posted on 08/09/2013 2:01:16 PM PDT by KittenClaws ( You may have to fight a battle more than once in order to win it." - Margaret Thatcher)
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To: MNDude
Theological Question. When is Judgement?

Any second now, I'm afraid.

15 posted on 08/09/2013 2:05:29 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: MNDude

Most Christians believe in some form of immediate judgement after death, at least for the saved. However, I haven’t found anything of the sort in the Bible. Instead, there are pretty clear statements that we all have to wait for two resurrections described in the book of Revelation before we get to our final destination.


16 posted on 08/09/2013 2:21:36 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: chesley

According to the Bible, before the judgement of the unrighteous, there is a resurrection of the righteous, described in Revelation and a few other places. Until that happens, the righteous saved are still described as “sleeping” by the apostles, not up in Heaven with God.

Many modern Christians have conflated this “first resurrection” with the idea of a “rapture”, but it is really a bodily resurrection of the righteous dead, accompanied by a rapture-like event for those believers still alive.


17 posted on 08/09/2013 2:25:29 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: MNDude
Following are my beliefs that I will share. They are based on my experience, experiences of others, teachings of others, and finally Bible scriptures:

When someone dies, there is a short period of time immediately after when it seems their soul may be making some kind of transition. This is the time family members and etc. are likely to experience "encounters" or "events" of a strange nature. Especially if you look for these.

Angels are present during these times, and are written to be among us at all times. The Messiah spoke with Angels in the Garden of Gethsemane, so also other prophets in the Bible. I have no idea how Angels are selected, what they are, and etc. I'm just sure that they exist. There is much that is written about them, and much we simply do not understand and perhaps are unable to comprehend.

A little history: At the time the Lord rose from the grave, the scriptures record certain saints, "first fruits", arose as well that night, and were observed actually walking around the city of Jerusalem.

Scriptures say the dead, who are in Messiah, will arise first upon his second coming. So somehow these individuals are known. Next, those living at this time will then be transformed in the twinkling of an eye to join the Messiah "in the air."

This transformation occurs just prior to the great woe that will be poured out on the earth; about halfway through what is called the tribulation. These living will have suffered much!

These that are in Messiah, reign with him for what is termed "a thousand years". After this millennium, another troublesome period occurs. This is the final battle of good vs. evil, when the Messiah finally conquers both evil (Satan) and death.

All of the others who've ever lived, the great majority, rise from their graves. These are judged by the Messiah. It is said to be a time when many will be found wanting, and disappointed their name wasn't written in the book of life as they had thought.

Some interpret that these souls will be cast into a lake of fire, some believe instead they are set apart from those who are judged righteous by their deeds (for why else would they need to judged) and experience what the Messiah calls the second death. I believe the latter occurs.

Those judged to be righteous, along with those in Messiah and the first fruits, inherit the new earth and new heaven - a higher plain of existence when the mystery of God is ultimately revealed.

18 posted on 08/09/2013 2:31:38 PM PDT by Errant
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To: KittenClaws
My theory is that the judgment will seem instantaneous for those who die. Sort of like being put under for surgery and waking up in recovery seems instantaneous for a patient.

Eccl 9:5 New International Version "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten."
But it is also obvious that God translates some immediately to Heaven for His Work. The transfiguration shows Abraham and Moses were alive and well in Heaven.

19 posted on 08/09/2013 2:59:28 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: MNDude

A good Bible reading would answer all these questions.


20 posted on 08/09/2013 3:22:06 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: chesley

Sums it up pretty well, chesley.

OP could also read this: http://www.amazon.com/One-Minute-After-You-Die/dp/0802463061


21 posted on 08/09/2013 3:33:32 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: chesley

http://www.amazon.com/Your-Eternal-Reward-Triumph-Judgment/dp/0802441920/ref=sr_1_16?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1376087748&sr=1-16

There is also this.


22 posted on 08/09/2013 3:37:21 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: MNDude
The Orthodox Christian Church, like the Catholic Church teaches that there is a partial judgment of each individual at the moment of death and a final and permanent judgment when Christ comes again.

It is important to know that humans were created by God with both a body and a soul and that the final judgment will occur after Christ's return and the general resurrection when our (transfigured) bodies are restored to each of us. (Death is the unnatural state of the human person when the body is separated from the soul and returns to dust. Christ will not judge us in this unnatural state.)

In between the partial judgment at death and the final judgment, our souls experience a taste of the blessedness of heaven or the anguish of hell. This foretaste exists even in this life before death. Holy people experience a taste of heaven in the here and now while those who are opposed to God often live a kind of hell on this earth. Since even believers are constantly falling into sin (opposition to God) we also experience times of “hellish” existence. Thankfully, while we are alive (that is before the repose of our bodies), we can use these negative experiences to repent and be restored to God. Those people who have no love for God but who seem to be living the good life with no negative consequences are actually the most pitiful among us because all their joy is based on the ephemeral things of this life and they have nothing invested in the eternal and are totally unprepared for life in the presence of God. The gospel story of the Rich Man and Lazarus describes the sad condition of the spiritually dead materialists of this world who are shocked to encounter the reality of God after death. (see Luke 16:19-31).

Heaven and hell are not “places”. God, who is love, didn't create a place of torments and punishment. Heaven and hell are how each soul experiences the loving presence of God. For those who love God, Christ's shining light is experienced as blessedness, as heaven. Those who do not love God experience this same blessed light as a hateful burning fire. The light is the same. God is the same: goodness and light. The person's perception of this reality, which is determined by the state of the heart, is what creates “heaven” and “hell”.

Unlike Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians do not teach that there is a limbo or a purgatory in the afterlife, however, the Church does teach that there is the possibility for a person's spiritual state to be improved after death (but before the final judgment) by the fervent prayers and good life of those people who loved them and are vigilantly struggling in this life.

It is essential to note that a person cannot repent for his own sins after death. (See again the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus). God gives each one of us every opportunity to repent from our selfish errors which estrange us from Him in this life. Once our bodies die, when we are in that “unnatural” bodiless condition, we can no longer repent for our sins.

However, as was already stated, those who haven't yet died, can pray for the departed. The good effect of prayers for those who have died is a mystery of love. It has to do with the fact that though each of us was created individually and uniquely, we are nevertheless connected with each other. All of humanity is in a sense one body, with Christ as the head. In God's mercy He takes into account the prayers of loved ones for the departed and the state of the soul of those waiting the final judgment can be improved. Since God is just and true, this loving assistance does not go against the basic choice that each soul has made to be either with or without God. Prayers for the dead are lifted up with the hope that forgotten, unrepented sins will be erased and that their loved one will be helped. These prayers are sent up with the knowledge that all is in the hands of our merciful and just Jesus Christ. We don't presume to know the end result and we certainly can't quantify anything with regard to the benefit of prayer or good works. We simply pray with hope and the knowledge that God will do everything short of violating our human freedom to save us. He wants everyone to enjoy eternal blessedness.

23 posted on 08/09/2013 3:44:32 PM PDT by Tasia
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To: jodyel
A good Bible reading would answer all these questions.

Well, aren't you helpful? Your response reminds me of the story of the Good Samaritan in which the priest and Levite both see the plight of the one in the ditch but thinks themselves too good or busy to help. Probably thought the person deserved to get robbed and beaten as they passed by.

24 posted on 08/10/2013 8:10:58 AM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: BipolarBob

Really?? That’s your reply?

Just wow!


25 posted on 08/10/2013 11:04:25 AM PDT by jodyel
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To: jodyel
"Really?? That’s your reply?"

Okay, here's another. James 2:15,16 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?

What have you done for your brothers/sisters need? The least you could have done is refer to what verses that would apply. But that would require some effort on your part. So instead you come up with a snarky "Go read the Bible" reply.

26 posted on 08/10/2013 1:17:17 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: Boogieman

I am unaware of any scripture showing soul sleep. There is, however 2 Corinthians

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


27 posted on 08/10/2013 2:42:47 PM PDT by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: jodyel

Thanks for these links. I might just check them out


28 posted on 08/10/2013 2:50:13 PM PDT by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: BipolarBob

Well, since I spent three years studying the Bible myself I’m not sure why others cannot. God wants a relationship with you and what better way to learn than studying His word for yourself?

That said, if you’d stowed the snarky attitude and read the whole thread you’d see I did post aid.

The whole point being...study Scripture for yourself and don’t rely on anyone else...most people don’t get it right anyway...so trust Scripture with the leading of the Holy Spirit!

And keep your snarky thoughts to yourself in future.


29 posted on 08/10/2013 2:56:07 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: chesley

Sure, and rock on fellow Southern Baptist! :)


30 posted on 08/10/2013 3:59:44 PM PDT by jodyel
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To: chesley

“I am unaware of any scripture showing soul sleep.”

There is 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 :

“14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Since this verse refers to the first resurrection in Revelation, the clear implication is that those who are “asleep”, or dead, are only resurrected at the last trumpet of Revelation. I suppose their souls could have been in Heaven just waiting for a body until then, but I just don’t think that is the plainest reading.


31 posted on 08/12/2013 7:25:53 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman
I suppose their souls could have been in Heaven just waiting for a body until then, but I just don’t think that is the plainest reading.

Perhaps not the plainest reading if that passage is taken in isolation. It is, however, the way that I believe.

I think that all the New Testament passages, taken together, point toward a conscious existence, with or without the Lord, after death.

In addition to the passage that I previously quoted, there is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Some say this is just a parable, but if so, why does Jesus not say so as He does for His other parables?

In the final analysis, though, while I think this is a very important doctrine, and we should try to get it right, it is not the essential doctrine, which is that however the afterlife is structured, Jesus is the only way there, and we need to accept that fact and act upon it positively

In point of fact, though, I do agree that we do not get our resurrection body until the first Resurrection.

In the meantime, it is fun to discuss these things with fellow Christians. We'll find out for sure soon enough :)

32 posted on 08/12/2013 7:40:52 AM PDT by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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