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Christians gather in Kan. to discuss homosexuality
Associated Press ^ | Sep 19, 2013 9:13 PM EDT | Maria Sudekum

Posted on 09/19/2013 9:40:10 PM PDT by Olog-hai

A Kansas man whose online lecture about the Bible and same-sex relationships gained considerable attention has gathered about 50 Christians from around the country to delve into his belief that the Scriptures do not condemn homosexuality as a sexual orientation.

Matthew Vines, of Wichita, grew up attending a conservative evangelical Presbyterian church in the city and relies heavily on intensive study of the Bible for his presentations. He said liberal and moderate Christian churches have adopted more gay-friendly stances, but conservative churches remain steadfast in their opposition to homosexuality.

The 23-year-old Vines wants to bring change with his message that the Bible doesn’t actually say same-sex orientation is a sin or condemn loving gay relationships. …

(Excerpt) Read more at hosted.ap.org ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Religion; Society; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda; kansas; matthewvines; sodomandgomorrah
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As if Leviticus 18:22/20:13, Romans 1:27, 1 Corinthians 6:9 and many other verses were ambiguous on the subject, rather than precise? Try again, man-child Vines.
1 posted on 09/19/2013 9:40:10 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Dollar to a donut the Church here is aligned with the One Church and/or the World Council of Churches?


2 posted on 09/19/2013 9:43:16 PM PDT by SteelTrap
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To: Olog-hai

So a college aged guy who convinces a few dozen others that homosexual behavior is biblical is an AP news story? Really?


3 posted on 09/19/2013 9:51:40 PM PDT by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: Olog-hai

A man.
A woman.

It is nothing but futile to try to justify any other arrangement.

To claim any other arrangement is not an aberration and harmful to familial security and values is foolishly blind or evil.


4 posted on 09/19/2013 9:52:32 PM PDT by conserv8
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To: Olog-hai

What’s to discuss?


5 posted on 09/19/2013 9:56:20 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: Olog-hai

First verse in Bible against homosexuality:

Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me.

Genesis 18:20-21

Last verse in Bible against homosexuality, spoken by Jesus:

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”

Revelation 22:14-15 (”dogs” is the Jewish term for homosexuals)

And, of course, many in between.


6 posted on 09/19/2013 10:01:27 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: Olog-hai

Why do nutjobs like this get media attention but 250,000 people in DC at a March for Life or biker rally gets none?


7 posted on 09/19/2013 10:08:13 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: Olog-hai

The Bible does not say “orientation” is a sin?

The activity is a sin though, right?


8 posted on 09/19/2013 10:09:59 PM PDT by GeronL
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To: GeronL

I would say that Matthew 5:28 can be expanded to indicate one’s so-called “orientation”.


9 posted on 09/19/2013 10:11:42 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: kaehurowing

The Greek word translated “the sexually immoral” in the NIV is “pornos”, which literally means a male prostitute.


10 posted on 09/19/2013 10:17:09 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: GeronL

Well, I suppose that depends on what one means by “orientation”. If that is what the person desires, then I would think that would be evidence of sin. Not for us to say, but rather for us to proclaim the truth of God’s Word and the good news of the Gospel.

God is the ultimate judge, of course, of whom is saved.


11 posted on 09/19/2013 10:17:52 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX (All those who were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48)
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To: Olog-hai

seriously, what the hell is there to discuss?


12 posted on 09/19/2013 10:35:13 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (Gone Galt; Not averse to Going Bronson.)
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To: Pining_4_TX

The flesh has enmity with the spirit....

We are tempted thru the desires of our flesh as Paul stated. So if one successfully resists temptation, though he had desire than one has not sinned. Paul had his “thorn in the flesh” that Christ had not taken away from him, instead receiving the answer of “My grace is sufficient for thee”.

If simply having desire(whether for illicit sex, money, power, ungodly fame, ect) was evidence of sin, then all Christians everywhere are in terrible trouble!


13 posted on 09/20/2013 12:05:57 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: mdmathis6

However, Jesus did say that if one looked upon a woman with lust, then he has already committed adultery in his heart, so maybe this would also include homosexuals lusting after others, but not giving in to the temptation. Having said that, I seriously doubt that any of them DON’T give into the temptation.

King James Bible
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Remember the Jimmy Carter Playboy interview where he admitted he committed adultery in his heart?


14 posted on 09/20/2013 2:02:39 AM PDT by Catsrus
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To: Olog-hai
Scriptures do not condemn homosexuality as a sexual orientation.

Scriptures do not condemn homosexuality as a sexual orientation, but if it's only in a pervert's inclinations and not in his actions, we would never have to hear about it and there would be no reason for discussion. Scripture unambiguously condemns homosexual acts. There is no more point discussing it than there is with adultery. The Creator of the universe says "no". We have the free will to choose whether we follow God or Satan.

15 posted on 09/20/2013 2:44:31 AM PDT by Pollster1 ("Shall not be infringed" is unambiguous.)
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To: Olog-hai
The Greek word translated “the sexually immoral” in the NIV is “pornos”, which literally means a male prostitute.

"Pornos," the masculine noun, used 10x in the NT.

Several feminine nouns are used 37x.

There is no place in the NT where homosexuality is classified as uniquely sinful. In fact, it is usually listed right in there with such common sins as lying.

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

So while the liberal notion that it is not a sin per the Bible, so is the Christian Right's claim that it is The Sin Above All Other Sins. There is very little distinction drawn between homosexual immorality and heterosexual immorality.

But since heterosexual immorality is so widely practiced and accepted, or at least ignored, in today's churches, nobody wants to talk about that. There is something intensely hypocritical about fiercely denouncing a sin one is not tempted to engage in, while practicing or ignoring another sin treated very similarly by the NT.

16 posted on 09/20/2013 3:14:39 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan
So while the liberal notion that it is not a sin per the Bible is wrong,
17 posted on 09/20/2013 3:19:18 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Catsrus

Yeah if in our heads we look at a woman and play out a lust scenario in our heads. We can learn over time to “step ahead” of where desire may lead us and “quench” the thoughts. Proverbs says to “guard the heart for out of it flow the issues of life.” The Bible says the “heart is desperately wicked and who can know it”.

My wise old grandma, when I asked her about what to do about “bad thoughts” said...”bats may fly thru your belfry but you don’t have to let them build a nest!”


18 posted on 09/20/2013 3:53:33 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: onedoug

Actually, I would RATHER discuss the fact that ALL Dogs go to Heaven, BECAUSE it would’nt be HEAVEN without them!!


19 posted on 09/20/2013 4:18:19 AM PDT by chicagolady (Mexican Elite say: EXPORT Poverty Let the American Taxpayer foot the bill !)
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To: GeronL

Even the THOUGHT is sin!!

“But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed ADULTERY with her in his heart.


20 posted on 09/20/2013 4:21:15 AM PDT by chicagolady (Mexican Elite say: EXPORT Poverty Let the American Taxpayer foot the bill !)
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To: Olog-hai

SODOMY is the sin, you Biblically illiterate tool. ‘Orientation’ is of no concern to God. It’s your action that is the abomination.


21 posted on 09/20/2013 4:28:18 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Sherman Logan

I totally agree with your point. Homosexuality is no worse than adultery or the other sins mentioned alongside. The reason it often gets a little more attention is that adulterers don’t have ‘pride’ parades, or try to gain access to children to teach them that adultery is safe and fun.


22 posted on 09/20/2013 4:37:34 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon

That’s because heterosexual immorality, particularly premarital, is so accepted in our society there’s no need to teach that it’s safe and fun. It’s just the consensus of society.


23 posted on 09/20/2013 4:50:57 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan

Homosexuality is called “abomination” in Leviticus (from Hebrew “to’ebah”, which means something utterly disgusting). Not all sins are given that label, although all sin carries the death penalty (Romans 6:23); other sins called “to’ebah” include idolatry.


24 posted on 09/20/2013 6:16:33 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Sherman Logan

No, it is not so accepted. Don’t fall for the liberal spin. Only liberal churches “accept” it.


25 posted on 09/20/2013 6:17:33 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: kaehurowing

But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord(Sinning before the Lord continually) Gen.13:13.


26 posted on 09/20/2013 6:26:00 AM PDT by Robert Burkholder
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To: GeronL

I read the Bible and believe that the “iniquity of Sodom” as given in Ezekiel 16:—suggests a condition of the heart that became a behavior.Remember when King David stayed behind —that was not a sin -but the right of the King.When he looked upon Bathsheba as she was bathing on the rooftop nearby.Neither she nor the King could be said to have sinned,except one must ask if she knew the King had stayed behind, and if bathing on the roof was common for her -or others. And one must ask if King David stayed behind because he had heard she might be bathing on the roof. If it were all chance and nothing proceeded from it I could not consider such sin.But it appears King David chose to dwell on that pornographic image.He lusted after her. He imagined what might be.He invited her in ,as was a Kings right. and the condition of their heart led to unlawful behavior even murder. All this to say I believe the Bible does suggest an
orientation is still sin. For orientation is a way of looking at a given object. and the Believer is to keep his eyes upon God.


27 posted on 09/20/2013 6:26:00 AM PDT by Robert Burkholder
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To: Robert Burkholder

bump


28 posted on 09/20/2013 6:34:03 AM PDT by GeronL
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To: Olog-hai

Who wants to discuss the disgusting? It is wrong, end of discussion.


29 posted on 09/20/2013 7:28:10 AM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Olog-hai

This guy isn’t reading the same Bible, Of course it’s condemned, but so is ANY other sin.

Everyone is lost, and needs the savior..


30 posted on 09/20/2013 7:30:55 AM PDT by JSDude1 (Is John Boehner the Neville Chamberlain of American Politics?)
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To: Olog-hai

Quite true.

However, there are quite a number of things called “abomination” in the OT. I had one for lunch on my burger. Bacon, yum.

“These six things doth the Lord hate, yea, seven things are an abomination to him: haughty eyes; a lying tongue; hands that shed innocent blood; a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations; feet that be swift in running to mischief; a false witness that uttereth lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.”

IOW, homosexuality is hardly unique in its being referred to as abomination. So are many other sins. And quite a remarkable number of things that few today consider sins at all.


31 posted on 09/20/2013 10:01:22 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Olog-hai

Don’t buy that.

Sexually active homosexuals would not be welcome at many conservative churches.

Sexually active unmarried heterosexuals I think few would bat an eye. In my lifetime the term “dating” has changed from primarily meaning socializing and courtship to random one-night stands.

How many churches today make any attempt to discipline members who divorce, regardless of the cause? Even though Christ spoke against divorce, but said nothing that has been recorded about homosexuality.

BTW, I’m not in favor of “gay rights.” I just think the Bible classifies homosexuality as one of many sexual sins, in which they are roughly equal in sinfulness except for special characteristics.

Of these, the unnatural nature of homosexuality and incest makes them worse than “normal” fornication. The abusive nature of pedophilia makes it worse. And the betrayal aspect of adultery makes it worse.

But all sexual sins fall under the general term “porneia” or fornication.


32 posted on 09/20/2013 10:09:12 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: GeronL

The reality is that claiming being homosexual has nothing to do with what someone IS, and has everything to do with what someone DOES!....the ‘ACTS’ follow the mind and heart. It remains a choice to refrain/resist/flee from sinful choices or yield. That includes the twisted sexual appetites of homosexuals who see themselves as exceptions....when in fact they are simply satisfying their twisted sinful appetites.


33 posted on 09/20/2013 10:15:46 AM PDT by caww
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To: Sherman Logan

The word “porneia” is derived from “pornos”, the Greek word for a male prostitute, just for the record.

And any church that welcomes a heterosexual fornicator is not conservative, bottom line.


34 posted on 09/20/2013 10:34:05 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Porneia is not derived from pornos, which is merely the masculine form of the feminine noun for prostitute, porneia. The feminine form is much more commonly used, for obvious reasons, since in the ancient, as well as modern world, female prostitutes greatly outnumbered male ones.

I am not a Greek scholar, but I think it highly unlikely that the modern word fornication derives ultimately from pornos rather than porneia, the much more common noun form.


35 posted on 09/20/2013 11:44:59 AM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan

The word “prostitute” (female) is “porne”. “Porneia” refers to all such activities engaged in by both “professions”, and adultery (forbidden in the Ten Commandments) is very much included.

I seriously doubt that throughout the Roman and Greek Empires there was a shortage of male prostitutes, or even a disproportionate ratio of female to male. Consider their culture, especially the Greek one (heavily into pederasty).


36 posted on 09/20/2013 11:47:58 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
adultery (forbidden in the Ten Commandments) is very much included.

It should be pointed out that adultery in the OT is defined as it is in the Koran. That is, any sex outside marriage engaged in by the wife, or sex by any man with a married woman.

Sex outside marriage by a married man not included.

37 posted on 09/20/2013 12:22:58 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan

Completely false. The instances of stories in the Bible of male adultery are examples of what not to do and are not examples of righteousness. And male adulterers are to be put to death, BTW.

The Koran actually says nothing about stoning; that’s from the Hadith.


38 posted on 09/20/2013 1:05:06 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Robert Burkholder

But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord(Sinning before the Lord continually) Gen.13:13.

Ahh, you’re right!


39 posted on 09/20/2013 1:12:47 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: Olog-hai

We have multiple examples in the OT of a woman executed or almost executed for the crime of adultery. Her lover was also liable to execution.

Would you care to provide an example of a man considered guilty of adultery not because he had sex with a woman married to someone else, but because he had sex with a woman other than his wife?

In a polygamous society male adultery in this sense has no meaning. Even a man convicted of raping a virgin was only sentenced to pay a fine to her father and be married to the rapee without possibility of divorce. No mention of his execution if he happened to already be married. It was just not relevant.

You are correct that male adulterers are to be put to death, as they are today in Saudi. But the crime is defined as sex with a married woman. Not sex by a married man with someone other than his wife.


40 posted on 09/20/2013 1:14:32 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Olog-hai

Homosexuality is called “abomination” in Leviticus (from Hebrew “to’ebah”, which means something utterly disgusting). Not all sins are given that label, although all sin carries the death penalty (Romans 6:23); other sins called “to’ebah” include idolatry.

I once had a Bible teacher say that it was almost impossible to have a good English translation of the word, the best translation was “icky,” as in “you want me to eat a pile of dog turds?”


41 posted on 09/20/2013 1:16:02 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: Sherman Logan

Shellfish fallacy.


42 posted on 09/20/2013 1:16:52 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: kaehurowing

Coprophagia is several degrees beyond “icky”.


43 posted on 09/20/2013 1:16:53 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Sherman Logan

Definition of adultery in the OT: “22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.”

You will notice the absence of mention of a woman sleeping with another woman’s husband.


44 posted on 09/20/2013 1:17:09 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: kaehurowing
other sins called “to’ebah” include idolatry.

Also lying, using false weights, and eating shellfish or swine.

45 posted on 09/20/2013 1:19:26 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan

I think you are right and not right.

Homosexuality is a sexual sin, no better or worse than other sexual sins such as fornication and adultery and using prostitutes.

But, the New Testament is very clear that for a Christian to engage in sexual immorality is a very serious sin, because the Holy Spirit cannot be present where there is sexual immorality. Sexual immorality will not only destroy an individual spiritually, it will also destroy a church body that embraces (or doesn’t enforce Biblical standards on) sexual immorality.

The other problem, which you make reference to, is that if you tolerate one type of sexual immorality, you tolerate them all. Thus, one can say the present problem with homosexuality has its roots in the church turning a blind eye to fornication and no-fault divorce (serial adultery).

And a good example today is the PCUSA. In its rush to validate homosexuality for ministers and elders, it threw out all standards that ministers and elders must be chaste in singleness and faithful in marriage. Thus, not only can someone qualify to be a minister in today’s PCUSA if they are a practicing homosexual, they can also qualify if they are having heterosexual sex outside of marriage or cheating on their heterosexual spouse.


46 posted on 09/20/2013 1:24:32 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: kaehurowing

I agree.


47 posted on 09/20/2013 1:26:16 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan

Seeing your follow up posts, I do agree with you entirely. All sexual sin destroys spiritually, why the Scriptures speak so strongly against it, especially in the New Testament.

Jesus was very clear that what harmed a person was not eating non-kosher food, but such things as sexual immorality that were in their hearts.


48 posted on 09/20/2013 1:27:12 PM PDT by kaehurowing
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To: kaehurowing

Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.


49 posted on 09/20/2013 1:43:35 PM PDT by Sherman Logan (Mark Steyn: "In the Middle East, the enemy of our enemy is also our enemy.")
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To: Sherman Logan

Did you ever read Isaiah 66:17?


50 posted on 09/20/2013 2:00:58 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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