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AR-15 80% lower question
me | 11-2-13 | TZ

Posted on 11/02/2013 10:06:47 AM PDT by TurboZamboni

So if someone theoretically has an 80% lower(for personal ownership/use only) and could find a machinist to finish the 20%, is the machinist or owner of the lower in violation of any federal goobermint laws?

If not, is there a place to find and print chapter and verse as proof of this?

If the the theoretical owner were to press the "start" button on a programmed CNC machine, would the theoretical owner then be considered the maker/manufacturer?


TOPICS: Hobbies
KEYWORDS: 80; ar15; atf; banglist; guncontrol; lower; secondamendment

1 posted on 11/02/2013 10:06:47 AM PDT by TurboZamboni
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To: TurboZamboni

The arsonists of the BATFE thank you for the lead.


2 posted on 11/02/2013 10:08:06 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Who knew that one day professional wrestling would be less fake than professional journalism?)
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To: TurboZamboni

I *think* that if you make it yourself and do not transport across State lines or transfer it to someone else, it’s fine. I’m sure another Freeper can confirm/deny this.


3 posted on 11/02/2013 10:08:09 AM PDT by dinodino
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: TurboZamboni

Pretty sure you need to do the work yourself.


5 posted on 11/02/2013 10:09:09 AM PDT by andyk (I have sworn...eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.)
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To: dinodino

The theoritcal owner has no drill press and already theoretically ruined one lower
and theoretically chose not to buy all the tools to theoretically attempt again.


6 posted on 11/02/2013 10:09:10 AM PDT by TurboZamboni (Marx smelled bad & lived with his parents most his life.)
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To: TurboZamboni

I have an 80% lower and as I understand it, once the piece is milled it must be registered and if not registered at at that point, then you might have legal issues. Of course I’d like to learn more about it myself.


7 posted on 11/02/2013 10:11:12 AM PDT by scripter
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To: TurboZamboni

Theoretically then a drill press would be a good investment. Look for a 75-year old American one from a garage sale and skip the modern Chinese crap. Theoretically.


8 posted on 11/02/2013 10:12:04 AM PDT by dinodino
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To: TurboZamboni

I theoretically did not click on this post.


9 posted on 11/02/2013 10:13:21 AM PDT by Scrambler Bob ( Concerning bo -- that refers to the president. If I capitalize it, I mean the dog.)
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To: TurboZamboni

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=418576

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=187265

http://www.80percentarms.com/pages/faq

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0218/5770/files/ATF_Letter_Public_Release.pdf?125

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

Should get you in the right direction. Para C. Line 1. should apply per the atf site as you have a forging.


10 posted on 11/02/2013 10:13:44 AM PDT by Antihero101607
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To: scripter

Registered?

nothing I own is “registered”, nor is it required to be.

State by State situation.


11 posted on 11/02/2013 10:14:09 AM PDT by G Larry (Let his days be few; and let another take his office. Psalms 109:8)
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To: Antihero101607

Excerpt: C.F.R. § 478.39 states:

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.


12 posted on 11/02/2013 10:15:43 AM PDT by Antihero101607
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To: TurboZamboni

The best bet would be to find someone to ‘loan’ the theoretical owner the tools to do it. Or the use of their tools. The work HAS to be done by the owner. Otherwise the theoretical owner is kind of theoretically f——d. You can’t pay to have it completed by someone else unless they are a licensed firearms manufacturer. Theoretically.


13 posted on 11/02/2013 10:16:10 AM PDT by servo1969
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To: Antihero101607

Thanks!


14 posted on 11/02/2013 10:22:51 AM PDT by scripter
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To: TurboZamboni

The law states that you must do the work yourself. A few years ago a company that makes 80% frames for 1911s out in Montana or Idaho had a gathering where you could bring your unfinished receiver and put it on their machines to finish them. The ATF didn’t like it, but there was nothing they could do. I believe that technically, if you put the receiver in the machine and clamp it down and hit the start button, then you are finishing the receiver. The programming is no more than coaching.


15 posted on 11/02/2013 10:25:04 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (From time to time the.tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.)
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To: scripter

Any citizen not prohibited from owning a firearm may manufacture as many as he want for his own use and DOES NOT have to register them.


16 posted on 11/02/2013 10:26:42 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (From time to time the.tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.)
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To: Antihero101607

Where could a person find a detailed ,full size schematic /blueprint?


17 posted on 11/02/2013 10:32:45 AM PDT by TurboZamboni (Marx smelled bad & lived with his parents most his life.)
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To: servo1969

Theoretically, if you can’t prove something happened then it didn’t happen. If there are no witnesses or paper trail then it would be very difficult to prove who’s hand was on the drill press.


18 posted on 11/02/2013 10:35:19 AM PDT by EandH Dad (sleeping giants wake up REALLY grumpy)
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To: TurboZamboni

ATF&E should be a convenience store.


19 posted on 11/02/2013 10:37:53 AM PDT by EandH Dad (sleeping giants wake up REALLY grumpy)
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To: G Larry; All

“nothing I own is “registered”, nor is it required to be.”

Only a tiny number of states require registration. I think the number is about five.


20 posted on 11/02/2013 10:47:37 AM PDT by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: TurboZamboni

As someone who might have theoretically built an AK before, the answers above are correct.

Find an AR build party in your area and do the work as a group. You will find someone with the tools and experience to show YOU how to do it.


21 posted on 11/02/2013 11:10:08 AM PDT by Azeem (There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo.)
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To: G Larry

Registered?

Theoretically I am a registered terrorists

US Army Veteran.


22 posted on 11/02/2013 11:14:46 AM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: TurboZamboni; All
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23 posted on 11/02/2013 11:16:13 AM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: TurboZamboni

You must finish the work yourself.

I’ll try to send you a company in California who makes 80%’s.

Their instructions are unbelievably easy.

A caveman could do it.

gimme an hour and when I get home I’ll get you their link.


24 posted on 11/02/2013 11:18:48 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
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To: dinodino

There is a 200 dollar tax that you have to pay when you make a weapon. Failure to pay that tax is a crime. Possession of an untaxed weapon is an element toward proof of the crime.


25 posted on 11/02/2013 11:37:06 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
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To: marktwain

I refer you to ATF Form 1


26 posted on 11/02/2013 11:39:35 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
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To: TurboZamboni
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
27 posted on 11/02/2013 12:11:55 PM PDT by Delta 21 (Oh Crap !! Did I say that out loud ??!??)
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To: EandH Dad
I found that store in Bailey, CO a few weeks back... add in Medical Marijuana... the place is undoubtedly Party City.


28 posted on 11/02/2013 12:13:59 PM PDT by Rodamala
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To: scripter
I have an 80% lower and as I understand it, once the piece is milled it must be registered

Only in an unfree state!

You see, folks, what the media does? It's got FREEPERS believing they have to register their guns! Good grief!

29 posted on 11/02/2013 12:19:48 PM PDT by backwoods-engineer (Blog: www.BackwoodsEngineer.com)
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To: donmeaker; All
There is a 200 dollar tax that you have to pay when you make a weapon. Failure to pay that tax is a crime. Possession of an untaxed weapon is an element toward proof of the crime.

PLEASE PLEASE! Do NOT give out firearms advice if you don't know what you're talking about! You can be convicted of a FEDERAL Felony!

No, 80% lowers are NOT for NFA weapons, so therefore, NO TAX has to be paid on them.

30 posted on 11/02/2013 12:23:24 PM PDT by backwoods-engineer (Blog: www.BackwoodsEngineer.com)
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To: donmeaker
FORM 1 ONLY APPLIES TO NFA WEAPONS!

An 80% lower is not capable of selective fire.

And I don't have any shoestrings, rubber bands, or rubber washers, either, Mr. ATF snitch.

31 posted on 11/02/2013 12:24:51 PM PDT by backwoods-engineer (Blog: www.BackwoodsEngineer.com)
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To: donmeaker

I think you are considering class III firearms, which are fully auto or short barreled rifles or shotguns, and a few others.

Silencers or suppressors are also included.

You do not have to ask the BATFE for permission to manufacture a firearm unless it is a class III or if you are making them to sell them.


32 posted on 11/02/2013 12:46:00 PM PDT by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: Rodamala

Will they franchise to East Tennessee?


33 posted on 11/02/2013 12:48:55 PM PDT by EandH Dad (sleeping giants wake up REALLY grumpy)
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To: backwoods-engineer

The piece was purchased in California as a paper weight (more of a conversation piece) for the time being. The store owner said once it was milled it had to be registered. I don’t know what California law says but I have no plans of registering it here.


34 posted on 11/02/2013 1:04:54 PM PDT by scripter
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To: dinodino
"Theoretically then a drill press would be a good investment."

A good set of scuba equipment would be better, what with all the recent boating accidents.

35 posted on 11/02/2013 1:07:55 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: TurboZamboni
There's a lot to be said for having an AR that (legally) has no markings on it. Here's one I recently finished.

 photo arbuild01_zps96e0f5f1.jpg

This is a very timely topic and is in a state of flux right now. The BATFE is cracking down big time on "build parties" in California and since they do not enforce California law but federal law I expect it will be seen elsewhere. I tried to find the thread and references on Calguns.net but they seem to have disappeared which tends to happens when to much information is given or strategy revealed.

Anyway, the background. The rifle above is legal as it sits, even in California, as long as it does not have a magazine with a capacity of greater that 10 rounds inserted. You cannot see it but on the other side it has a magazine lock, known popularly as a "bullet button" that requires a "tool" to release the magazine. After December 31 of this year this rifle would have to be registered when finished. You can still build one yourself but you have to send a "voluntary registration" with the DROS fee and I am uncertain but would assume it needs a serial number to be registered. Naturally this spiked a lot of interest in building AR's before the cutoff date. Rifles owned before the registration requirement are grandfathered and need not be registered, similar to handguns legally possessed in California prior to 1991.

Thus arose the "build party" where 10 or so guys would buy an 80% receiver and get together at someone's house who owned a drill press or a mill and learn how to finish the receiver and assemble the rifle. Then some machine shops saw an opportunity to make some money and started "renting" time on a CNC mill. The mill would have the program loaded and the buildee would push the start button, which was held to be the operation that finished the receiver.

Soon people were lined up outside the doors of these shops and as anyone who has had dealings with the BATFE (I had a Class 1 & Class 6 FFL in the eighties) would tell you, they weren't going to stand for that. One shop, as I recall it was ARES in San Diego, was made the example of and raided and shut down. Then a "cease and desist" letter was sent to the other shops that had been doing the same thing and they stopped and the rest soon followed. According to the legal eagles who have analyzed it the BATFE is concerned about "for profit" manufacturing by entities without a Class 7 license and SOT cranking out unserialized weapons with no paperwork that may be in the possession of prohibited persons. They now look at where the machines used to finish are located and who owns the machines and the premises they are located in. So going to a machine shop and pushing a button to finish a receiver may now constitute a violation of Federal law.

But building one for yourself with you own skills remains completely legal under GCA 68. You can buy one of the new polymer 80% receivers like EP Lowers sells and use a Dremel tool to remove the color coded polymer and there you go. Or you can buy a polymer 80% that comes with an one time use jig and finish it with a drill press. Or if you have a friend with a Bridgeport 0304 in his garage, as I do, who will instruct you in how to run the machine and you manually mill it yourself, as I did and no money changes hands then it's presumably legal.

The finished receiver cannot be transferred to anyone unless you mark it. There are detailed requirements on the markings and as I recall they must include the builders name, city and state and a unique serial number. The marking must be a minimum of 3/16" high and .003" deep but that's only what I remember and you should check to be sure before embarking on that course of action. Also the receiver (or rifle) cannot be sold for profit.

36 posted on 11/02/2013 1:19:36 PM PDT by atomic_dog
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To: TurboZamboni

Having completed many PCR-80 lowers you should do the work yourself. While you may give the PCR-80 lower to the machinist, when he returns it to you it is no longer a PCR-80 and is considered a firearm.

You will have to remove it from the machine only.


37 posted on 11/02/2013 1:42:49 PM PDT by Ouderkirk (To the left, everything must evidence that this or that strand of leftist theory is true)
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To: marktwain

Yes, you are right. Class III firearms, was what I researched, some 10 years ago. I forgot that qualification when responding to the post.

Sorry team.


38 posted on 11/04/2013 10:55:27 AM PST by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
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To: donmeaker

No probem. The only people who never make a mistake are those who do nothing. And that is the biggest mistake that they can make.


39 posted on 11/04/2013 11:29:31 AM PST by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: marktwain

See! I just misspelled problem. The “L” key doesn’t work on that keyboard... I had to retrieve a different one.


40 posted on 11/04/2013 11:30:42 AM PST by marktwain (The MSM must die for the Republic to live. Long live the new media!)
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To: TurboZamboni

I am offering no advice or counsel.

I researched the 80% lower issue and my course of action would be, if I were to go that route,

Do the finish work myself with a professional jig.
Stamp it with “1”.
Not transfer it to another person nor transport it across state lines.


41 posted on 11/04/2013 11:34:13 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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