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JFK: the myth that will never die
the Telegraph ^ | 16 Nov 2013 | Peter Foster

Posted on 11/16/2013 9:48:54 PM PST by fella

And the Cuban Missile Crisis, on some subsequent readings of history, was not a triumph of bold statesmanship as it was hailed at the time, but a piece of foolhardy grandstanding that unnecessarily humiliated the Soviets and precipitated the arms race that defined the Cold War.

Even on civil rights – the subject of one of Kennedy's greatest speeches in June 1963, when he vowed that "Every American ought to have the right to be treated as he would wish to be treated, as he would wish to have his children treated." – the reality never matched the myth.

Kennedy made good on his campaign promises on equal rights but only, we now know, after being forced to intervene by growing violence in the South. Until that point, along with his brother Robert, the attorney-general, it was pragmatism not principle that had governed decision-making.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: 50yearsafterjfk; anniversary; conspiracytheory; jfk; jfkassassination; jfklegacy; mythmaking; myths; presidents; revisionisthistory
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The Brit media doesn't reflect our media's whoreship of JFK.
1 posted on 11/16/2013 9:48:54 PM PST by fella
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To: fella

Watching the JFK death special on SeeBS right now. The old codger journalists are all trying to re-pleasure the deceased president. But it was a very historic time, and covering it and oswalds murder was brand new to TV news. Great old footage.


2 posted on 11/16/2013 9:54:27 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: fella

My entire life this JFK guy has been made out to be the second coming of Christ. My guess is he did nothing above average, and more likely sucked.


3 posted on 11/16/2013 9:55:25 PM PST by ToastedHead
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To: fella
"We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too."

Sealed the deal for me. And a few years later, when a completely overwhelmed and astounded 14 year old boy sat and watched Armstrong make that first step, it was set in my heart forever. So he banged a few actresses. Everybody does that. Kennedy HAD THE STUFF it takes to make a GREAT president. Do you think the NSA would be listening to all your convos if he was around? He would have burned them to a crisp.
4 posted on 11/16/2013 9:57:26 PM PST by djf (Global warming is turning out to be a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: fella

We even have a freeper who worships JFK as a conservative hero, or some such thing, but it is true devotion to him.


5 posted on 11/16/2013 9:58:59 PM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: fella
Ain't no myth in EO11110...

Do your own DD and figure the time frame and the reason.....It was the French that shut the gold window

6 posted on 11/16/2013 10:00:49 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: ToastedHead
My entire life this JFK guy has been made out to be the second coming of Christ. My guess is he did nothing above average, and more likely sucked.

No. I would say that JFK was the last fairly decent Democrat president. He wasn't nearly sleazy enough for the party....so a communist killed him.
7 posted on 11/16/2013 10:05:45 PM PST by Wanderer99
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To: djf

JFK?

The man was a disaster, his election doomed this nation, it gave us the 1965 Immigration Act which was his major goal to replace the American voters, he gave us Vietnam, federal union bargaining, the 1960s, LBJ, a disastrous foreign policy and setbacks, lost Cuba, he gave us Ted Kennedy and created the “Kennedy media and textbook machine and industry” that reshaped our nation and culture.

I would have preferred Eisenhower’s veep in 1960 and 1964, and Reagan in 1968, but of course that is a different view from the left’s hero worship of the man who gave the left America, forever.


8 posted on 11/16/2013 10:06:18 PM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: fella
Ill give a couple of posts before some smartass “corrects” for what i didn't say...

The answer is Nixon...but I digress as to why?? (read previous post)

9 posted on 11/16/2013 10:08:52 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: Wanderer99

Neither LBJ or J Edgar Hoover were commies...


10 posted on 11/16/2013 10:09:50 PM PST by matthew fuller (Americans deserve better than an illegal alien communist from Kenya.)
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To: Wanderer99

Makes sense. If they hadn’t caught Oswald, he’d be a great host on MSNBC.


11 posted on 11/16/2013 10:12:59 PM PST by ToastedHead
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To: fella

The media are just sensing the very fanciful Kennedy trend of mythologizing pixie dust, since things are apparently looking up for Michael Skakel as his murder conviction has recently been overturned. And what about that Teddy Kennedy! He hasn’t imbibed in years; each day he sets a new record!

HF


12 posted on 11/16/2013 10:13:55 PM PST by holden (Alter or abolish it yet?)
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To: fella

The Kennedy Meth

In 1962, at the Carlyle Hotel in New York, a man “peeled off his clothing and began prancing around his hotel suite.” His bodyguards were cautiously amused, until the man “left the suite and began roaming through the corridor of the Carlyle.”

The man in question was delusional, paranoid and suffering a “psychotic break” from the effects of an overdose of methamphetamine.
He was also the president of the United States.

The reason for John F. Kennedy’s bizarre behavior was that, according to an explosive new book, the president was — unbeknownst to him, at first — a meth addict.

http://nypost.com/2013/04/21/the-kennedy-meth/


13 posted on 11/16/2013 10:13:56 PM PST by kcvl
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To: ansel12

Thank you.


14 posted on 11/16/2013 10:15:46 PM PST by bigfootbob
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To: ansel12

It’s a total myth Kennedy caused Viet Nam.

He advocated advisors only.


15 posted on 11/16/2013 10:16:23 PM PST by djf (Global warming is turning out to be a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: Yaelle

The reason JFK didn’t have a thorough autopsy was because Bobby Kennedy knew he was taking all kinds of drugs and forced people in Dallas to return his body to DC so they could hide that fact according to several shows I have watched lately.


16 posted on 11/16/2013 10:17:16 PM PST by kcvl
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To: ansel12; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; GOPsterinMA

More than one freeper has posted the bs line “he would be a Republican today”. Candy land nonsense. The man was a leftist and genuine scumbag.


17 posted on 11/16/2013 10:18:49 PM PST by Impy (RED=COMMUNIST, NOT REPUBLICAN)
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To: djf
He advocated advisors only. LOL, Eisenhower had a few hundred advisers there, we had been there since the 1940s, Kennedy sent in 16,000 troops.
18 posted on 11/16/2013 10:29:21 PM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: ansel12

Source?


19 posted on 11/16/2013 10:31:32 PM PST by djf (Global warming is turning out to be a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: djf

Source? You want to push liberal democrat heroes here and you don’t even know the basics?

You posted that he “He advocated advisors only.” with absolutely no idea of the facts?


20 posted on 11/16/2013 10:37:06 PM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: djf

From the CS Monitor

“It’s possible he would have dispatched hundreds of thousands of US combat troops to the country, as did LBJ. Kennedy was a cold-war Democrat, meaning he was a committed anti-communist. His brother Robert Kennedy said in a 1964 oral history that JFK never thought about pulling out of Vietnam and was convinced the United States had to stand there against Soviet expansionism.”

“During the course of his presidency, JFK had increased the number of US advisers in Vietnam to more than 16,000 and opened the spigots of US military and financial aid.”

From wikipedia:
“In the 1960 U.S. presidential election, Senator John F. Kennedy defeated sitting Vice President Richard Nixon. Although Eisenhower warned Kennedy about Laos and Vietnam, Europe and Latin America “loomed larger than Asia on his sights.” In his inaugural address, Kennedy made the ambitious pledge to “pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and success of liberty.”

“By 1963, there were 16,000 American military personnel in South Vietnam, up from Eisenhower’s 900 advisors”


21 posted on 11/16/2013 10:50:26 PM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: ansel12
16,000 advisors. No standard US troops were dispatched till 1965.

This is one of the best timelines I've read. http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1961.html
22 posted on 11/16/2013 10:55:19 PM PST by djf (Global warming is turning out to be a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: djf; ansel12

“It’s a total myth Kennedy caused Viet Nam.
He advocated advisors only.”

So goes the myth, djf.

My dad’s office partner was the Pentagon’s small arms expert in that day. He returned from a tour in Vietnam in ‘62 and said that “they may not be calling it a war but we are using up ammunition just like it is one.” That was well before Johnson and there was plenty of fighting going on that involved American personnel.

And then Kennedy found the President of South Vietnam hard to control and wanted him gone. The result was the assassination of President Diem and his family in early November 1963. This left Vietnam rudderless and unable to fight. Johnson inherited that mess and was the one who eventually sent in American ground combat troops but it was Kennedy’s foolish elimination of President Diem that set that all in motion.


23 posted on 11/16/2013 11:00:48 PM PST by Pelham (Obamacare, the vanguard of Obammunism)
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To: djf

Yep, JFK was moving in troops by the many thousands, more than 16,000.

At the time, after decades of playing it low key and staying out of war in Vietnam, JFK decided that we suddenly needed 16,000 “advisers”, which is a heck of a lot of advising to be throwing into a war zone.


24 posted on 11/16/2013 11:03:14 PM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: ansel12

16,000 advisors, Special Forces. That’s what they admit to, sure. But they were doing a lot more than ‘advising’ and giving villagers immunization shots. My father was there ‘advising’ in ‘66. He introduced me to a Green Beret Captain, Roger H.C. Donlon, in the Fort Benning PX and I’ve never forgotten it. Medal of Honor winner, while advising there in 1963.
Kennedy saw himself as a Cold War warrior and his little brother was a real fire-eater. This myth about Kennedy reluctantly engaging in Vietnam was just that. He had been backed down over the U-2 downing, at Vienna and in Cuba. He resented it, unlike a current resident who seems to thrive on self abasement. Anyway, that’s my two cents. I saw it at Eglin AF base during the missile crisis and the buildup at Benning 64-65. The Dems were spoiling for war, so the Tonkin Gulf BS. Then RFK and his punks dumped it all in Nixon’s lap.
Our fighting men then share something with our troops 50 years later: they deserve better leaders. A lot better.


25 posted on 11/16/2013 11:03:43 PM PST by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: djf; ansel12

“Source?”

Ansel12 is absolutely right. My father was one of the 16,000 troops Kennedy sent over to Vietnam. The Military Assistance Command- Vietnam commanded by Gen Paul Harkins.


26 posted on 11/16/2013 11:06:17 PM PST by Pelham (Obamacare, the vanguard of Obammunism)
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To: Pelham

Well, all I can say is I’m glad my number came up 345.
And I can say this, I will not blame VietNam on Kennedy,


27 posted on 11/16/2013 11:11:36 PM PST by djf (Global warming is turning out to be a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: kcvl

It takes 50 years for the general public to get this information.....
...and some folks still believe there was a Camelot


28 posted on 11/16/2013 11:15:08 PM PST by Guenevere
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To: ansel12
This is weak. JFK definitely ramped up the US involvement in Vietnam.

I've never heard ANYTHING credible that after insertion of a large amount of troops, that he had any intention of calling them back.

LBJ simply continued JFKs ramp up. And had LBJ not royally screwed up, we could have actually WON in Vietnam.

Some have argued that after Tet, that we really had broken the backs of the North Vietnamese.

Don't get me started on my dad's opinion.

He was in the service at the time and has told me many things not considered PC with the Kennedy "legacy".

He STILL hates the guy.

For some reason he blames JFK more than LBJ. And he served under both.

29 posted on 11/16/2013 11:16:05 PM PST by boop (I had no IDEA I'd be paying for Obamacare. I thought it would be a rich guy.)
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To: tumblindice; ansel12; djf

“16,000 advisors, Special Forces. That’s what they admit to, sure. But they were doing a lot more than ‘advising’ and giving villagers immunization shots. My father was there ‘advising’ in ‘66. He introduced me to a Green Beret Captain, Roger H.C. Donlon, in the Fort Benning PX and I’ve never forgotten it. Medal of Honor winner, while advising there in 1963.”

You’re quite right, advisors outside of Saigon weren’t exactly sitting quietly in a schoolroom. Kennedy was a big proponent of the Green Berets. One major difference between his policy in Vietnam and Johnson’s was that Kennedy thought that unconventional warfare could do the job. But then he got Diem killed and the North began sending conventional forces south.


30 posted on 11/16/2013 11:19:21 PM PST by Pelham (Obamacare, the vanguard of Obammunism)
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To: djf

“And I can say this, I will not blame VietNam on Kennedy,”

That’s a triumph of emotion over the facts, but I imagine you will find lots of company.


31 posted on 11/16/2013 11:27:02 PM PST by Pelham (Obamacare, the vanguard of Obammunism)
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To: boop

“Some have argued that after Tet, that we really had broken the backs of the North Vietnamese.”

It was the Viet Cong that was destroyed during Tet, not the NVA. The Viet Cong were irregulars, a Communist militia in the South. North Vietnam’s regular army was still very much intact.

“LBJ simply continued JFKs ramp up. And had LBJ not royally screwed up, we could have actually WON in Vietnam.”

Johnson kept Kennedy’s SecDef Robert McNamara, perhaps one of the worst we have ever had, so there was definitely continuity there.

LBJ and McNamara decided that they could manage the war better than the generals and the two of them managed to violate about every known rule for winning a war. Ho Chi Minh and General Giap couldn’t have designed it much better.


32 posted on 11/16/2013 11:34:36 PM PST by Pelham (Obamacare, the vanguard of Obammunism)
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To: ansel12
We even have a freeper who worships JFK as a conservative hero, or some such thing, but it is true devotion to him.

It's isn't me.

33 posted on 11/16/2013 11:36:57 PM PST by Fiji Hill
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To: fella

John and Bobby died for our sins..... /sarc


34 posted on 11/17/2013 12:01:29 AM PST by llevrok (Obama 2008 : "If you vote for me, aaaaaa, you can keep your country")
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To: Pelham

Well, however you measure it, emotion is involved in everything.

I have no comment about Eisenhower, as I was alive then, but about that time, still nursing!

My judgement is this. And it is only my opinion based on what I lived and saw.

History will be the great judge.

It will be kind to Kennedy.
There is chit about Johnson that is buried so deep you might never smell it but history will rip him to pieces.
It will also, begrudgingly, be kind to Nixon. In my opinion, Nixon was a good man who got in too deep.
Ford? He tried hard. After all, he was an excellent FB player.
Carter? He also tried hard. His southern hospitality and genteel nature I think is something we should recognize and respect. I can tell you that IF the Iranian hostage mission had succeeded, there is no doubt in my mind, he would have been re-elected.
Reagan? Balls.
The two things no other president in my lifetime has had.
Bush I? A total Wall Streeter, Military/Industrial/Intelligence tool. Cripes he was head of the CIA for a while. Does anybody actually think he could have worried more about votes than his friends in high places?
Clinton?
Most FReepers will be amazed that I say this. But I think history will treat Bill Clinton as one of the greatest presidents ever. During his tenure, we had the computer revolution, there were many advances in agricultural output, in fact quite a bit of that “peace” thing was out there during the Clinton years. And when one compares the reception Clinton got in the international community VS. the reception George Bush II got, it shows quite a distinction.
Bush II? I think Bush the second will be viewed unfavorably. Too many conflicting forces surrounded him. I sincerely believe that he is an honest man, but we are at the point it almost makes one wonder “Is the job of Presidency too big for a single man?”
Obama? Zero.


35 posted on 11/17/2013 12:04:57 AM PST by djf (Global warming is turning out to be a bunch of hot air!!)
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To: ToastedHead
My entire life this JFK guy has been made out to be the second coming of Christ. My guess is he did nothing above average, and more likely sucked.

But compared to Barack Obama, he's RR.

Rush occasionally makes that point, and, when he does, it really annoys the leftards.

36 posted on 11/17/2013 12:15:27 AM PST by cynwoody
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To: kcvl

Interesting. I really want to get to that book about JFK being involved. They are talking about it on coast to coast tonight.


37 posted on 11/17/2013 12:24:34 AM PST by Yaelle
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To: fella

I have too much to say, but I will give you, this.

I lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, on a Continental military defense installation.

I met, and talked, not in a crowd, but one-on-one, with the late JFK.

He was the LAST combat-wounded-veteran President. (Bush01 was shot down, but unharmed.) His book, “Profiles in Courage”, acted as a literary mentor for many Americans.

He was the LAST fiscal conservative Democratic President.

He was the LAST Democratic President of this country, who stood face to face, against the now dissolved (sorta) Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

Lastly, he WAS an American, in the time when television was still new.

The Brits will never get what it is, “being an American”, because it is not in their DNA.


38 posted on 11/17/2013 12:25:04 AM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: Wanderer99

The last decent Democrat President was Grover Cleveland. The Socialist element began their purge of him and his Conservatives in 1896.


39 posted on 11/17/2013 12:36:44 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: Terry L Smith

Stood face to face against the USSR ? Khruschev ate his lunch. Nixon never would’ve folded like a cheap suit.


40 posted on 11/17/2013 12:39:00 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Fieldmarshaldj wrote:
“Stood face to face against the USSR ? Khruschev ate his lunch. Nixon never would’ve folded like a cheap suit.”

You were born AFTER the Fall of The Berlin Wall, weren’t you?


41 posted on 11/17/2013 12:47:40 AM PST by Terry L Smith
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To: Terry L Smith

The Berlin Wall was very much up and running in my birth year, sir.


42 posted on 11/17/2013 12:51:32 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: Terry L Smith

You have a lot to learn about JFK, he was an enemy of America.

A thoroughly corrupt, vain, incompetent, pretty boy, liberal that wanted to change immigration to replace the American voters.

Nothing is real when it comes to him, even his “heroism” that his dad fixed.


43 posted on 11/17/2013 1:52:23 AM PST by ansel12 ( Democrats-"a party that since antebellum times has been bent on the dishonoring of humanity.)
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To: ansel12

http://www.csmonitor.com/1991/1119/19182.html

NO one has provided more persuasive evidence that it was President John F. Kennedy who got the United States into the Vietnam war than James Reston in his recently published memoir, “Deadline.”Describing his interview with Mr. Kennedy following the young president’s summit with Nikita Khrushchev in Vienna, Mr. Reston has this to say: “I remember that Saturday morning very well. He (Kennedy) arrived at the US embassy (in Vienna) over an hour late, shaken and angry at having been delayed by an unexpected extra meeting with the Soviet leader. He was wearing a hat - unusual for him - and he pushed it down over his forehead, sat down on a couch beside me, and sighed. I said it must have been a roug h session. Much rougher than he had expected, he said.” Kennedy then told Reston that Mr. Khrushchev had threatened him, warning that if the US did not agree to communist control over access to Berlin, the Soviet Union would proceed unilaterally to dominate the routes from Western Europe to Berlin. Kennedy said that he replied that the US would fight to maintain access to its garrison in Berlin if necessary. Kennedy then went on to tell Reston that he felt sure that Khrushchev thought that anybody who had made such a mess of the Cuban invasion had no judgment. “Khrushchev,” writes Reston, “had treated Kennedy with contempt, even challenging his courage, and whatever else Kennedy may have lacked, he didn’t lack courage. He felt he had to act.” Soon thereafter Kennedy sent more advisers to the battlefront in Vietnam. “This, I thought,” Reston continues, “was a critical mistake. Once Kennedy had over 15,000 ‘advisers’ engaged not only in giving advice but also in giving support on the battlefield. US power and prestige were thought by many officials in Washington and in Asian capitals to be committed.”


44 posted on 11/17/2013 2:05:06 AM PST by abb
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To: ansel12

Not to mention a drug addicted sexual degenerate who put the entire country in jeopardy (not to mention willingly participating in the greatest electoral fraud in the 20th century). Is it any surprise the similarly degenerate and debauched media worships at his altar ?


45 posted on 11/17/2013 2:07:12 AM PST by fieldmarshaldj (Resist We Much)
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To: ToastedHead
Like FDRs debilitating infirmity, the news media, who knew all about JFKs drug use and lechery stayed complicitly silent. They continue with the coverup today, as with the Imam Obama.
46 posted on 11/17/2013 3:09:27 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: fella

I lived on a main thoroughfare in Miami during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Woke up during the night to the sound of Army trucks hauling Nike and Hawk missiles by my house.
Bought my first transistor radio, stored water, meager prepping(I was a poor newlywed.).

Anyway,, after it was all over I concluded that at least the timing was, as we term in today an ‘October Surprise’. Just before the mid-terms.
JFK , while a quick wit delivering entertaining press conferences, was having difficulty with his own Party and the public wasn’t that enamored with him.
IMO he needed the ‘Crisis’ to bolster support.

A good part of LBJs Great Society was JFKs idea. Most of it was passed in Congress as a memorial to JFK.


47 posted on 11/17/2013 4:11:20 AM PST by Vinnie
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To: djf

You mean that the guy who approved of his mean-assed brother bugging MLK, wouldn’t have liked the idea of listening in on anyone who caught his fancy? I call BS.


48 posted on 11/17/2013 4:20:42 AM PST by metesky (Brethren, leave us go amongst them! - Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond, The Searchers)
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To: kcvl

“The reason JFK didn’t have a thorough autopsy was because Bobby Kennedy knew he was taking all kinds of drugs and forced people in Dallas to return his body to DC so they could hide that fact according to several shows I have watched lately.”

The Kennedy’s also arranged for Mary Joe Koepechne’s to be quickly transported out of Massachusetts so the autopsy required by state law would not be performed.


49 posted on 11/17/2013 4:24:55 AM PST by Soul of the South (Yesterday is gone. Today will be what we make of it.)
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To: Terry L Smith
His book, “Profiles in Courage”, acted as a literary mentor for many Americans.

Saint Jack did not write "Profiles in Courage" anymore than he wrote anything else that came with his name attached.

50 posted on 11/17/2013 4:32:48 AM PST by metesky (Brethren, leave us go amongst them! - Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond, The Searchers)
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