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Judge Grants Request From Jahi McMath’s Family to Extend Life Support
Life News ^ | Steven Ertelt

Posted on 12/30/2013 4:47:11 PM PST by Morgana

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To: Drew68

True words. It frustrates me no end when folks who ‘looked’ something up on the internet think that they know better than the docs. The mom keeps using terms like ‘her shoulders move’. Well heck yeah the girl is on a ventilator of course her shoulders move.

Too often these folks have a good heart but NO real knowledge of how the human body works.


51 posted on 12/30/2013 8:20:39 PM PST by Nifster
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To: ladyjane

Doesn’t matter about other countries…. California has a state law that specifies what is considered the standard for declaring a person brain dead


52 posted on 12/30/2013 8:22:27 PM PST by Nifster
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To: Morgana

The hospital pr person is doing a horrible job at showing compassion & caring I heard an interview on the radio of him so callous.


53 posted on 12/30/2013 8:26:41 PM PST by RginTN
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To: Drew68
Okay. Read about Zach Dunlap and Rae Kupferschmidt.

Women in Quebec and Australia have also recovered after being declared brain dead. The criteria do not seem to be infallible.

And if brain tissue actually flowed out the nose, bacteria from the nose would colonize the brain, and the patient would be all the way dead in short order.

54 posted on 12/30/2013 8:34:00 PM PST by heartwood
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To: Bon of Babble
My local California paper reported the cost is $10,000/day.

Indeed, I'm sure the costs of life support begin to skyrocket when the "patient" is actually deceased.

This story is quickly devolving from tragic and sad to macabre and creepy.

55 posted on 12/30/2013 8:40:16 PM PST by Drew68
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To: Oliviaforever

What makes you sure the family is paying the bill? Seems highly unlikely to me.


56 posted on 12/31/2013 3:15:52 AM PST by sakic
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To: Nifster
California has a state law that specifies what is considered the standard for declaring a person brain dead

California law makers made the determination? LOL

57 posted on 12/31/2013 5:33:07 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: ladyjane

The Board of Medical Quality Assurance…. since you practice under a license in California they set what is considered standard practice


58 posted on 12/31/2013 7:36:41 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

Doesn’t it concern you that the states and countries have different criteria for what is considered brain dead?

I don’t want some politicians in the state capital deciding what is dead enough to take my organs.


59 posted on 12/31/2013 8:15:20 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: ladyjane

The only way a doctor is allowed to ‘take your organs’ is if YOU have signed a donor request. If you haven’t they can’t.

I get tired of all the bashing of the medical community that goes on…. even O claimed things that are NOT true and would cost a doc their license if it occurred.

The government through Ocare has already put into place panels that will decide who lives and dies. That is where our efforts should be.


60 posted on 12/31/2013 11:43:05 AM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

Actually there are some places where they can take your organs without your signature or your approval. It is assumed you are a willing donor if you have not signed a refusal.

Opt in or opt out approvals vary by location along with how death is defined. Some want cardiac death, others want brain stem death and others total brain death. There is no one standard for agreement to donate and equally important criteria for determining if you’re really dead.


61 posted on 12/31/2013 12:28:34 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: ladyjane

“Actually there are some places where they can take your organs without your signature or your approve”

Please cite where


62 posted on 12/31/2013 1:45:27 PM PST by Nifster
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To: Sacajaweau
I'm trying to figure out why they had pictures of her in the hospital BEFORE the surgery. And the operation was to relieve a sleep apnea problem....not tonsillitis. I'm betting this kid had a lot of problems.

Contrary to what has been reported and often repeated by the MSM, this was not just a “simple routine tonsillectomy”.

“Doug Straus said this case is not about a “routine” tonsillectomy. He said the surgery was complicated from the beginning, as three procedures were being done simultaneously. The three surgeries, according to court documents, were: an adenotonsillectomy; a uvulopalatopharyngloplasty, or UPPP, which is tissue removal in the throat; and submucous resection of bilateral inferior turbinates, which is nasal obstruction.” (deviated septum, i.e. nasal surgery.)

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Judge-Orders-Oakland-Hospital-to-Keep-Jahi-McMath-on-Life-Support-236808851.html

She evidently had very severe obstructive sleep apnea which was confirmed by a sleep study performed prior to the surgery. She didn’t just have a little trouble sleeping and snored a bit too loudly but would stop breathing all together several times during the night and that cause her not only her to feel lethargic, but also according to what I’ve read caused her to have other problems like not being able to concentrate at school, mood swings and even wetting herself- urinary incontinence is not uncommon in people with severe sleep apnea. And while people who are overweight are more prone to sleep apnea, untreated sleep apnea increases the risk obesity and makes it harder to lose weight gained and also increases the risk of high blood pressure, heart attack, stroke, diabetes and makes heart arrhythmias more likely. Acid reflux is also often a result of sleep apnea. Sleep apnea can be for some people a very serious condition that left untreated, can lead to serious and potentially fatal complications even without surgery. And who knows what conditions this poor girl had other than sleep apnea.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/sleepapnea/

http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-apnea/sleep-apnea

This was not at all a routine or minor surgery. Then again, no surgery is simple or routine and without risks.

So I have to wonder why the family says that Jahi was sitting up and laughing and talking to them and asking her mother for popsicles only an hour so after this very major surgery. I also have to wonder about this statement:

“Sometime after the seemingly uneventful Dec. 9 surgery, Jahi was taken to the ICU and Winkfield said she was told the staff had to fix her ICU. About 45 minutes later, Jahi was brought back to her room and was sitting in bed, bleeding from her mouth.”

“"It was normal," Winkfield said the nursing staff told her.”

“Winkfield then said she asked for a doctor. Instead, she said she was given a bigger container for Jahi to bleed into, and later, a suction device to suction out the "increasing volume of blood," the court request states.”

I have to wonder if 1) the family wasn’t following post op instructions to keep Jahi quite and calm, try to keep her from talking, live alone from laughing and not to feed her anything so soon and 2) if someone, either the mother or grandmother who is said to be a nurse although it is not clear whether she is an RN, LPN or a nurses’ aid, got a bit carried away with the suctioning and exasperated the bleeding or caused a hemorrhage to occur. Then again why would the hospital give a suctioning device to the family to use, unless the grandmother, saying she was a nurse and knew how to use it properly convinced them that she could administer care herself????

I’m not saying that this is what happened but it is possible. Of course it is also possible that the bleeding for whatever reason was way beyond normal and that the staff at the hospital didn’t respond quickly enough or ignored her worsening condition. If that is the case then the hospital would be liable for her death. But that’s not to say that the surgeon was at fault either. That’s not also to say that being obese and perhaps with other underlying conditions, that Jahi didn’t suffer a heart attack coincidental but unrelated to the bleeding.

But we won’t know for now or for a while because all we have is the family’s side of the story because they won’t give permission to the hospital to speak to any of the details of what happened and even obtained a restraining order to keep the hospital from doing so. I’m guessing there will be a malpractice and eventual “wrongful death” suit and that all manner of information will come forward.

FWIW, I had a tonsillectomy when I was 18 years old because of severe tonsillitis, an infection so severe and so chronic, too long gone untreated, that the ENT doctor who finally saw me put me in the hospital the very next day for surgery, saying that the infection was so severe, that he was amazed that I hadn’t succumbed to species – I was just that sick.

But after my surgery which was only a tonsillectomy and removal of my adenoids, my parents and I were given instructions that I should not even attempt to talk or attempt eat or drink anything other than ice chips for the next 24-hours and even after that, for the next day or two, that I should only have fruit juice popsicles and Jello in moderation and try to refrain from talking and stay in bed in a semi-reclined position for the next few days.

But I do very vividly recall that shortly after I came out of recovery and was brought to my room for my overnight stay; that I started shivering severely and shaking uncontrollably, like I was freezing to death, except I was not and did not feel cold. A very quick thinking nurse, an RN realized that I was either going into shock (evidently as this- bleeding is not so unusual for a tonsillectomy, and I had from what I was told, bled a lot) or I was having a bad reaction to the anesthesia, she ran out of my room and very quickly came back with a syringe. She rolled me over and plunged the syringe into my butt and within minutes I stopped shaking and felt fine.

I also remember coughing and spitting up blood, a good bit of it and some bleeding from my nose and feeling blood go down the back of my throat in huge clots for several days after the surgery – it was to say the least, quite uncomfortable. But this is rather normal for this type of surgery although quite disturbing. And I can imagine after seeing a friend go through surgery for and recovery from a deviated septum which also results in a good bit of post-op bleeding, that the combination of these surgeries that Jahi had would result in a good deal of post op bleeding.

And if I understand correctly, throat and nasal surgery often has a potential for bleeding even life threatening bleeding because the surgeon can’t simply suture and put a dressing on it and wait for a external scab to develop; the soft mucus membranes in the throat and nasal cavities can be cauterized but they can’t be sutured and bandaged in the same way that is done in other types of surgeries.

It is very sad and tragic, what happened, but then again, no surgery is without risk. And sadly she’s been confirmed to be brain dead, not by just one neurologist but several including the one appointed by the court and by various means of determining brain death. And there isn’t any chance of waking up from true and properly diagnosed brain death.

One of my great nieces, 5 years old, recently had surgery to put in ear tubes and have her adenoids removed because of chronic ear infections. The ENT also recommended removing her tonsils even though they were not enlarged nor infected. Her mom read up on the risks, especially the potentially fatal bleeding risks associated with tonsillectomies and had a conversation with the ENT several days before the surgery and asked him to explain why he was recommending a tonsillectomy and his best answer was “I might as well since I’m in there - they might have to come out eventually”. My niece countered with “that’s not a good enough reason to remove a healthy organ and increase the risks of complications”, to which the ENT said, “Yes, you’re right, it’s not”.

63 posted on 12/31/2013 3:22:27 PM PST by MD Expat in PA
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To: Nifster
You don't believe they can't take your organs without your signature?? They can. Google opt in and opt out.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to do a complete review for you. However, if you are willing to look you will see that many places will take your organs before you are completely dead. See the law in Israel, Wales, Austria, Germany, on and on. If they can pronounce you *dead* even though your organs are still functioning (and they have to be still functioning to be useful for transplanting) they can pronounce you ready to be dead by withholding water and food. Are you happy with that?

Citations?

Here in the Us. NIH

Presuming consent, presuming refusal: organ donation and communal structure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11186027

Wales First opt-out organ donation scheme in UK set to be approved in Wales Under new bill, adults would be assumed to have consented to use of organs and tissues unless they stipulate otherwise http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jun/30/opt-out-organ-donation-scheme-uk-wales

Austria The Austrian Hospitals Law allows individual organs or parts of organs to be removed from a deceased person for transplantation, in order to save the life www.bmeia.gv.at/en/embassy/...austria/organ-donation-in-austria.html‎

64 posted on 12/31/2013 4:37:34 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: Nifster
You don't believe they can't take your organs without your signature?? They can. Google opt in and opt out.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to do a complete review for you. However, if you are willing to look you will see that many places will take your organs before you are completely dead. See the law in Israel, Wales, Austria, Germany, on and on. If they can pronounce you *dead* even though your organs are still functioning (and they have to be still functioning to be useful for transplanting) they can pronounce you ready to be dead by withholding water and food. Are you happy with that?

Citations?

Here in the Us. NIH

Presuming consent, presuming refusal: organ donation and communal structure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11186027

Wales First opt-out organ donation scheme in UK set to be approved in Wales Under new bill, adults would be assumed to have consented to use of organs and tissues unless they stipulate otherwise http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jun/30/opt-out-organ-donation-scheme-uk-wales

Austria The Austrian Hospitals Law allows individual organs or parts of organs to be removed from a deceased person for transplantation, in order to save the life www.bmeia.gv.at/en/embassy/...austria/organ-donation-in-austria.html‎

65 posted on 12/31/2013 4:37:35 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: Nifster
You don't believe they can't take your organs without your signature?? They can. Google opt in and opt out.

I don't have the time nor the inclination to do a complete review for you. However, if you are willing to look you will see that many places will take your organs before you are completely dead. See the law in Israel, Wales, Austria, Germany, on and on. If they can pronounce you *dead* even though your organs are still functioning (and they have to be still functioning to be useful for transplanting) they can pronounce you ready to be dead by withholding water and food. Are you happy with that?

Citations?

Here in the Us. NIH

Presuming consent, presuming refusal: organ donation and communal structure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11186027

Wales First opt-out organ donation scheme in UK set to be approved in Wales Under new bill, adults would be assumed to have consented to use of organs and tissues unless they stipulate otherwise http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jun/30/opt-out-organ-donation-scheme-uk-wales

Austria The Austrian Hospitals Law allows individual organs or parts of organs to be removed from a deceased person for transplantation, in order to save the life www.bmeia.gv.at/en/embassy/...austria/organ-donation-in-austria.html‎

66 posted on 12/31/2013 4:37:36 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: ladyjane

Well there you go you cite locations OUT SIDE of the US…. If you live in those countries then be sure and opt out. I on the other hand live in the US and my point still stands.


67 posted on 12/31/2013 5:23:36 PM PST by Nifster
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To: ladyjane

“In 2006 when the UAGA was revised, the idea of presumed consent was abandoned. In the United States today, organ donation is done only with consent of the family or donator themselves.[5]”

That is current law in the US


68 posted on 12/31/2013 5:50:12 PM PST by Nifster
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To: Nifster

If you knew what really goes on in the ER...

As long as you’re over 60 y.o. you don’t have to worry. They don’t want your organs. But if you are younger you are at risk.

If you only knew what really goes on.


69 posted on 12/31/2013 5:50:35 PM PST by ladyjane
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To: ladyjane

The body responds to trauma in different ways. It is hard to make a value judgement in a case like this.

I would think that there is a fairly clear cut method in this day to determine that this case is like thousands of others and those folks were unrecoverable.

I do feel bad for her parents, I cannot imagine having to toss in the towel on one of my children as such a tender age.

But to hear the hospital spokes-nitwit, you would think that they should have sent her to the organ ghouls, and the balance to the morgue within minutes, instead of giving the family time to make their peace with the reality of their situation. I would think that by now, we can be fairly certain that this poor girl has gone over to the other side.


70 posted on 12/31/2013 7:25:04 PM PST by Ouderkirk (To the left, everything must evidence that this or that strand of leftist theory is true)
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To: Ouderkirk

No question. It’s hard to make a judgement, even if we had the real facts of the case. Newspaper accounts are frequently inaccurate and the hospital surely needs a new community relations department if not a new end-of-life protocol.

I’ve been surprised at the lack of agreement in criteria used to decide if a person is ‘brain dead’ and the movement in this country to make organ donation the default condition. I was surprised at all the pending legislation at the state level that assumes agreement on the part of its citizens to be donors unless they formally opt out. Perhaps some of our freepers can confirm that. (LOL - autocorrect just changed freepers to creepers)


71 posted on 01/01/2014 7:03:32 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: ladyjane

I do know what goes on in the ER and other medical facilities. You apparently have had a bad experience at some point. The fact is and has always been that the patient has to be their own best advocate. But do NOT ascribe the kind of motives to doctors and nurses caring for those who are sick and hurting that you have previously ascribed. They are NOT evil monsters waiting to harvest organs to hell with the patient. You are blind and ignorant if you believe that


72 posted on 01/01/2014 7:37:04 AM PST by Nifster
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